Lordy Lordy Lordy

[YOVMO]

I have a question about Lordship and Dornish Princehood.

I have always taken it that Renly was called Lord Renly as he was Lord of Storms End. As another younger brother no one ever calls Loras Lord Loras. Bran is called the Little Lord at times even when Ned and Robb are alive but that may be a term of endearment. Yet Obeyrn is clearly a Prince of Dorne.

 

I guess my question is:

Can a younger brother style himself Lord in the 7K (When Robert was Lord of Storms End was Stannis still Lord Stannis or is it his Dragonstone holding that confers him as Lord)? We already know that one can be a Lord with no holdings (Lord Varys). 

Also, I know Dorne plays by some slightly different rules than the rest of the kingdoms but is Oberyn's title of prince an honorific or does it confer on him some rights that are acknowledged throughout the 7K

[estermonty python]

Prince is an honorific in Dorne only - all members of the ruling family are styled Prince or Princess - it was a concession the Targs had to make to bring Dorne into the 7 Kingdoms.

Anyone who controls a castle is lord of that castle.  The only Lords who don't control land are the members of the Small Council - Lord Varys, Lord Baelish, etc (although technically Baelish does own that small keep).  Younger brothers are not lords unless they own something, or have some position that carries with it a title (Lord Commander, etc).  

[Lord Vance II]

Castle/holdings = Lord seems to be a pretty standard rule.

I've always taken the "Lord (first name)" to mean that there could be multiple Lords in the same family at the same time, like the Baratheons. Loras would never be Lord unless Wylis died heirless, but if somehow Loras ended up getting Dragonstone for capturing it (not happening, but for an example), then he would be Lord Loras. And I'm fairly certain Renly was on the Small Council at the very beginning, so that's where his initial Lordship would come from. 

And yeah, Dorne is just Dorne. 

[shizett]

I think others are right, But Tyrion gets called "Lord Tyrion" by Maester Aemon at the wall (when he holds no lands or small council place) and by some underlings (like Pod). He repeatedly is called "Lord Tyrion" when he is acting as hand by Varys, Janos Slynt and others. So, maybe Lord can sometimes be used without a land or small council seat too.

 

PS. In my search result, I realized that both the Hound and Sansa refer to Tyrion as "little lord Tyrion". They are the only two! 

[Lord Vance II]

2 minutes ago, shizett said:

I think others are right, But Tyrion gets called "Lord Tyrion" by Maester Aemon at the wall (when he holds no lands or small council place) and by some underlings (like Pod).

My gut says this is just an outpouring of respectful words for the queen's brother. 

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, estermonty python said:

Prince is an honorific in Dorne only - all members of the ruling family are styled Prince or Princess - it was a concession the Targs had to make to bring Dorne into the 7 Kingdoms.

Makes sense

Quote

Anyone who controls a castle is lord of that castle.  The only Lords who don't control land are the members of the Small Council - Lord Varys, Lord Baelish, etc (although technically Baelish does own that small keep).  Younger brothers are not lords unless they own something, or have some position that carries with it a title (Lord Commander, etc).  

This was exactly what my thinking was but then I remembered that the Hound calls Tyrion Lord Tyrion in AGOT Tyrion I and Maester Aemon calls him Lord Tyrion in AGOT Tyrion III both of which well before he was acting King of the Hand

 

53 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

And I'm fairly certain Renly was on the Small Council at the very beginning, so that's where his initial Lordship would come from. 

I never really understood Renly's position on Robert's small counsel.  First of all, he was given Storm's End to be lord over so wouldn't he have some lording to do back in the storm lands? Second, ok so if he appoints a castellen because Robert has asked for his help on the counsel what was his particular job....Master of ?????

There are 7 spots on the small council. Hand of the King, LC of Kingsguard, Masters of Coin, Laws, Whisperers and Ships and Grand Maester. Robert's Jon Arryn / Ned as Hand, Pycelle as GM, Bearish as MOC, Stannis as MOS, Varys and Selmy. That means Renly was Master of Laws? Renly appointed and was the boss over the chief gaoler, managed the dungeons, was the top of a chain of command including the kings justice and advised on legal matters? Renly was very young to have that position even by the asoiaf standards.

 

EDIT: looked it up. Renly was master of laws. I just find it odd

[YOVMO]

11 minutes ago, shizett said:

I think others are right, But Tyrion gets called "Lord Tyrion" by Maester Aemon at the wall (when he holds no lands or small council place) and by some underlings (like Pod). He repeatedly is called "Lord Tyrion" when he is acting as hand by Varys, Janos Slynt and others. So, maybe Lord can sometimes be used without a land or small council seat too.

 

PS. In my search result, I realized that both the Hound and Sansa refer to Tyrion as "little lord Tyrion". They are the only two! 

Yes about Tyrion. It could have been mocking from the Hound but I doubt that with Aemon. 

 

Nice catch on the sansa hound thing

[Lord Vance II]

1 minute ago, YOVMO said:

Renly was master of laws. I just find it odd

Nepotism. 

[YOVMO]

11 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

My gut says this is just an outpouring of respectful words for the queen's brother. 

So I saw this

"This usage sometimes extends to those wishing to show courtesy to a junior member of a noble House during conversation, by addressing them with the title of Lord in conjunction with their personal name." in the asoiaf wiki entry for lord. This makes sense. 

[Blackfyre Bastard]

Doesn't "Lord" have to do with the administration of justice in the name of the king?

I'm not very familiarized with the functions, but it seems that everyone who has vassals is a lord.

Not everyone who has a holding or fief is a lord, i.e. Clegane's men refer to him as "Ser", so I'm guessing landed knights who don't perform certain functions in the name of the king, or their lords, are only "sers".

Of course, calling someone "lord" as an honorific or courtesy (Varys) is free and won't get you jailed (let's hope).

[Vaedys Targaryen]

I think it has to do with both whether they own lands and courtesy.

Stannis is Lord of Dragonstone and Renly is (kind of) Lord of Storm's End, but Varys is not lord of anything, but he is still referred to as Lord Varys because of his position in the Small Council. I can't remember if he said anything about in the books, but in the show he said that no one was obliged to call him 'lord', as he wasn't one.

Also, Duncan the Small was Aegon V's oldest son and was set to inherit the Iron Throne, but was disowned and still held the title of prince because he was part of the royal family, and Jenny of Oldstones was called Lady Jenny after she married Duncan, even though she had no lands and was the wife of a disowned prince.

[shizett]

33 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Yes about Tyrion. It could have been mocking from the Hound but I doubt that with Aemon. 

Yeah, I specifically did not mention the Hound, as it seemed like sarcasm. It is hard to figure out M. Aemon though, as the context there seems sarcastic too (although Tyrion does not pick up on that, so maybe not). M. Aemon does not strike me as that kind of person.

31 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

"This usage sometimes extends to those wishing to show courtesy to a junior member of a noble House during conversation, by addressing them with the title of Lord in conjunction with their personal name." in the asoiaf wiki entry for lord. This makes sense.

Thanks for this. I didn't know this either.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

56 minutes ago, shizett said:

I think others are right, But Tyrion gets called "Lord Tyrion" by Maester Aemon at the wall (when he holds no lands or small council place) and by some underlings (like Pod). He repeatedly is called "Lord Tyrion" when he is acting as hand by Varys, Janos Slynt and others. So, maybe Lord can sometimes be used without a land or small council seat too.

Well, when Tyrion was (acting) Hand, he did sit on the Small Council. That "lord" honorific he got during his tenure was for all intents and purposes borrowed, just as the golden chain he wore around his neck.

12 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I think it has to do with both whether they own lands and courtesy.

Stannis is Lord of Dragonstone and Renly is (kind of) Lord of Storm's End, but Varys is not lord of anything, but he is still referred to as Lord Varys because of his position in the Small Council. I can't remember if he said anything about in the books, but in the show he said that no one was obliged to call him 'lord', as he wasn't one.

As Lady Stark put it, "The title was but a courtesy due him as a council member; Varys was lord of nothing but the spiderweb, the master of none but his whisperers". So it was an empty title, but at the same time it was his due.

[YOVMO]

31 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Doesn't "Lord" have to do with the administration of justice in the name of the king?

I do not believe this is actually the case though I can see why one would think so. When Ned executes the deserters from the NW he does it in the name of the King not in his own name. That said, the lords commander of the KG and NW do not administer justice, Tyrion (pre acting hand) does not either.

31 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

I'm not very familiarized with the functions, but it seems that everyone who has vassals is a lord.

Not quite. Lord Varys has no vessels.

31 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Not everyone who has a holding or fief is a lord, i.e. Clegane's men refer to him as "Ser", so I'm guessing landed knights who don't perform certain functions in the name of the king, or their lords, are only "sers".

My feeling (though I could be wrong) is that their is simply a hierarchical system at play in the feudal world. There are peasants, merchants, soldiers and then there are Knights. Knight is almost like gateway nobility. If you see how knights are spoken of, being a Ser comes with it privileges. Of the two kinds of knights there are Hedge Knights and Landed Knights. Landed knights may have inherited land the Way Ser Gregor did or have it bestowed upon them by a Lord the way Cleganes father did. However, giving lands to a knight does not make him a lord any more than a farmer owning a farm makes him a landed knight.

Of Lords there are several types. Traditionally lordship would date back with family. However, some people are raised to lordship and there is a noticeable strife between them and old family knights. Walder Frey feels old families spit on him and even with the Tyrell's there is a lot of looking down on them as they were only made lords when the actual lords of the reach defied the conqueror.  

Aegon showing up with his dragons really threw a corkscrew in nearly 10 millennia of Feudalism. 

Then you have petty lords, minor lords, major lords and great lords. I always wondered why Martin didn't use different styles to distinguish (actually I am going to open a new thread on this one rather than continue here I have a idea for something fun. I will call is Westerosi Style

31 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Of course, calling someone "lord" as an honorific or courtesy (Varys) is free and won't get you jailed (let's hope).

Right. 

[YOVMO]

22 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Also, Duncan the Small was Aegon V's oldest son and was set to inherit the Iron Throne, but was disowned and still held the title of prince because he was part of the royal family,

Prince is a bit of a tricky one. All the sons of a king are prince but there is a difference between the Prince and the Crown Prince. 

For instance, when Robert was alive Joff was Crown Prince but that didn't make Tommen not a prince in his own right.

[estermonty python]

With respect to the Tyrion and Bran question (and the info from the wiki), its worth pointing out that IRL younger sons of senior members of the peerage (i.e. Dukes and Marquesses) are addressed as "Lord" as a courtesy, whereas members of the peerage with more junior titles (Earl, Viscount, etc) are properly referred to as "Lord," but their younger sons are not.  GRRM appears to have extended this stratification to his world - so Bran and Tyrion would properly be addressed as "Lord."

When "Lord" is simply an honorific, knighthood ranks higher.  So this would explain why Jaime and Loras are referred to as "Ser," rather than "Lord."  Kingsguard service should also strip honors, lands, and titles, however, so that would be an equally plausible expanation.

There seems to be a difference between the basic feudal overlord who controls a keep and the equivalent of a baron to whom other lords owed fealty.  The latter had the right (and the obligation) to attend court, while the former could only appeal to their liege lord.  It's a bit unclear where that line is, but my best estimate is if a House is owed fealty by another House, then that house can attend Court.  So House Tyrell obviously attends court, but so does House Rowan, because while House Rowan owes fealty to House Tyrell, it is owed fealty in turn by House Osgrey, who may not attend court. The head of House Osgrey, then, is referred to as "Ser" (if a knight) and not "Lord."  This would explain why Eustace Osgrey and Gregor Clegane are called "Ser" in different generations, despite holding lands and incomes, while, for example, Mathis Rowan would be referred to as "Lord."

 

It is interesting to note that Prince Llewyn retained the honorific of "Prince" despite being in the Kingsguard, which is supposed to strip away all lands, titles, and incomes.  Presumably this is a special case born of the treaty with Dorne.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

11 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

It is interesting to note that Prince Llewyn retained the honorific of "Prince" despite being in the Kingsguard, which is supposed to strip away all lands, titles, and incomes.  Presumably this is a special case born of the treaty with Dorne.

Lands - yes. Titles - I don't think so. The Dragonknight is consistently called "Prince Aemon the Dragonknight".

[estermonty python]

27 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Lands - yes. Titles - I don't think so. The Dragonknight is consistently called "Prince Aemon the Dragonknight".

Good point re: the Dragonknight, but come to think of it "Prince" is an exception, because you don't need to hold lands to be a prince; i.e. there are different rules for Targs and Martells than everyone else.  After all, Jaime didn't become a Lord when Tywin died, nor could he, because he can't inherit.  Likewise if someone who was a Lord joined the Kingsguard they'd have to give up the Lordship, because it is a hereditary title that can only be held by one person at a time, and would pass to that person's heir. 

[fellow reader]

I think lord/lady is used with two different meanings

1)social rank: all members of lordly houses are lords/ladies because of their high status in society---->Lord/Lady [NAME]

  but if they get knighted, they are called Ser(perhaps because that title belongs to themselves instead of just signifying their belonging to a lordly family), unless they are/become the ruling lord, then see below

2)marking him/her as ruler/owner of castles/lands--->([NAME],) Lord/Lady of [CASTLE/LANDS]

e.g.: Tyrion was called Lord Lannister as Tywin still lived, but only Tywin was the Lord of Casterly Rock

Cersei has the social rank of a queen, but with Tywin's death, Jaime in the Kingsguard and Tyrion a condemned king&kinslayer on the run, she is now also the Lady of Casterly Rock   

Sansa has always been Lady Sansa Stark since her birth(like Arya has always been Lady Arya Stark), but as all before her in the line of inheritance to Winterfell were officially dead, she became the Lady of Winterfell. After her disappearance(&alleged murder of King Joffrey), 'Arya Stark'(Jeyne Poole) became this.      

[Lemon of Lemonwood]

7 minutes ago, fellow reader said:

I think lord/lady is used with two different meanings

1)social rank: all members of lordly houses are lords/ladies because of their high status in society---->Lord/Lady [NAME]

  but if they get knighted, they are called Ser(perhaps because that title belongs to themselves instead of just signifying their belonging to a lordly family), unless they are/become the ruling lord, then see below

2)marking him/her as ruler/owner of castles/lands--->([NAME],) Lord/Lady of [CASTLE/LANDS]

e.g.: Tyrion was called Lord Lannister as Tywin still lived, but only Tywin was the Lord of Casterly Rock/Lord Paramount of the Westerlands

Exactly.