Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

[SFDanny]

34 minutes ago, JNR said:

This is only a problem to solve if you know Lyanna and the Kingsguard were in the same place at the time Jon was conceived.

But you don't.  You don't know they were together at the same time at any point in the Rebellion at all -- not a single day. 

 

Quote

At Harrenhal, he first beheld Lyanna Stark. He brought tears to her eyes with his singing, before  crowning her this queen of love and beauty before his wife and half the realm. Sometime later, Rhaegar abducted Lyanna with the aid of Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. 

<snip>

Lord Robert, Lyanna's betrothed, was consumed by the need to to avenge himself on Rhaegar, but the prince could not be found for the first months of the war. Rumor had it that he was in the south with Lyanna, at a place he called the Tower of Joy, near the red mountains of Dorne. But eventually his father sent Ser Gerold Hightower to recall Rhaegar to his duties, though Rhaegar ordered Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, and Ser Oswell to keep guard over Lyanna in the south. (World of Ice and Fire app, Rhaegar Targaryen entry, officially authorized by George R. R. Martin) bold emphasis added.

We can go back over the evidence that Lyanna dies at the tower of joy when Ned arrives with his party and battles the three members of the kingsguard, but I know you like to pick and choose for others what sources are allowed to be discussed. The above shows clearly that some of the Kingsguard were with Lyanna during much if not all of the rebellion.

[kimim]

27 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Please, oh please, don't confuse my thoughts with this nonsense. I was only pointing out the message sent to the Targaryens by planting a lemon tree from Dorne outside their Braavosi home. Very likely done on the same trip in which the Red Viper signs his name to the marriage pact along with Ser Willem and the Sealord of Braavos. There is NO evidence Dany has ever been to Dorne, nor that Prince Doran would take leave of his senses to bring the Targaryens there. Such an act would be a declaration of war with Robert if ever found out.

No, I was suggesting that Doran might well have moved in more subtle ways, and through other actors - like the Archon of Tyrosh - to give some support to the Targaryens.

I'm so very sorry.

...I really like the lemon tree as a Dornish message, either to the siblings, or to someone.

[SFDanny]

15 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Just a thought to explore...Jeor drank beer everyday with lemon in it. Jorah is described as looking like a hairy bear. Jeor's home on Bear Island is made with large timbers with carvings of animals. Dany recalls Darry as a great bear of a man and of a house with carvings in wooden beams, yes she also recalls a red door and a lemon tree, but what if we're surprised in a future passage that Jeor grew a lemon tree at home so that he could have lemon in his beer? Jorah sold "poachers" which brought Ned rushing up to Bear Island...

Thanks to somepig, weaselpie, and LynnS for their work on this. It's a very interesting possibility to explore.

If we accept the idea that Ser Jeor has a lemon tree planted on Bear Island in order to have his lemon with his beer that would certainly be more in world proof that the trees can survive outside of their native climates, but it would be meaningless as an indication that Dany had ever been there.

[SFDanny]

3 minutes ago, kimim said:

I'm so very sorry.

...I really like the lemon tree as a Dornish message, either to the siblings, or to someone.

No apology needed. I should have made myself more clear on the point. I too like the tree as a Dornish message of support to the Targaryens.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

If we accept the idea that Ser Jeor has a lemon tree planted on Bear Island in order to have his lemon with his beer that would certainly be more in world proof that the trees can survive outside of their native climates, but it would be meaningless as an indication that Dany had ever been there.

I suppose I should have finished that theory. I posit that Ashara's dishonoring didn't happen until later in Kings Landing right before the rebellion. Raped by Aerys she left and turned to Ned for help in the Vale. She's the true identity of the Fisherman's Daughter and Ned sailed with her to White Harbor. Then either Ned called his banners from White Harbor or he traveled all the way to Winterfell, in either instance Ashara ends up going to Bear Island and ends up delivering Dany there. After Jorah takes over as Lord he sells Ashara and Dany. They are separated. Ashara is now in hiding as Septa Lemore, and Dany ended up with Viserys. Viserys knows Dany has Targaryen blood, but he also knows Rhaella isn't her mother, thus his attitude towards her and his sarcastic "sweet sister" Dany would have been too little to know the truth. She could remember Jeor as Darry, and the stealing out of the nursery was actually when Jorah "sold" her to Tyroshi slavers. Then there's Barristan's thoughts that Dany looks just like Ashara.

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I suppose I should have finished that theory. I posit that Ashara's dishonoring didn't happen until later in Kings Landing right before the rebellion. Raped by Aerys she left and turned to Ned for help in the Vale. She's the true identity of the Fisherman's Daughter and Ned sailed with her to White Harbor. Then either Ned called his banners from White Harbor or he traveled all the way to Winterfell, in either instance Ashara ends up going to Bear Island and ends up delivering Dany there. After Jorah takes over as Lord he sells Ashara and Dany. They are separated. Ashara is now in hiding as Septa Lemore, and Dany ended up with Viserys. Viserys knows Dany has Targaryen blood, but he also knows Rhaella isn't her mother, thus his attitude towards her and his sarcastic "sweet sister" Dany would have been too little to know the truth. She could remember Jeor as Darry, and the stealing out of the nursery was actually when Jorah "sold" her to Tyroshi slavers. Then there's Barristan's thoughts that Dany looks just like Ashara.

There are honestly times I think this is one big trolling exercise. Tell me truthfully, are you seriously proposing any of this?

[Melifeather]

17 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

There are honestly times I think this is one big trolling exercise. Tell me truthfully, are you seriously proposing any of this?

I think it's an interesting idea to explore.

[Kingmonkey]

On 30/11/2016 at 0:17 AM, Feather Crystal said:

Well this is quite embarrassing. But how ironic to have seemed to fit so beautifully!

When we see a symbolic link that fits perfectly, we tend to assume such a perfect fit couldn't be accidental. That's a quite natural assumption, and because that perfect link seems like solid evidence on its own, it's a very understandable slip-up to not dig deeply enough on trying to falsify it. 

This should be a lesson to us all. Just because something looks intentional doesn't mean GRRM intended it. We should remember that even if we're right about our conclusions, it's a fair bet that some percentage of the evidence we used to get there is something we read into it that GRRM never intended. 

[SFDanny]

53 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think it's an interesting idea to explore.

Do you think it is an interesting idea to explore as a thought exercise? Do you think it is interesting because it provokes people to respond against it? Or do you think this is interesting to explore because you honestly believe any of it is likely what Martin has written?

[Melifeather]

47 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Do you think it is an interesting idea to explore as a thought exercise? Do you think it is interesting because it provokes people to respond against it? Or do you think this is interesting to explore because you honestly believe any of it is likely what Martin has written?

Does that even matter? I pursue ideas because they interest me. What is this? The conformity police? You guys need to loosen up.

[Kingmonkey]

16 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I don't think it is too much harder than my bare bones sketch of what has to occur shows. Of course, you're right that there is much we don't know, but what we do know puts Ned in charge of troops and not wandering off on his own. Could it have happened? Very unlikely. He is much more like a real commander than a certain unnamable starship captain who goes down on every away mission and leaves his ship for others to command. No, Ned is much more real than a James Tiberius what's his name. Damn it bones, this is fantasy, not some silly sci-fi novel!

Ahhh I hate to do this to you SFD, but you've forgotten the one memory of Ned's we actually get from the Rebellion, which is where he wandered off on his own (well, with a small handful of men), leaving his troops in some unnamed location to go on a secret assignment. The away mission to the tower of joy, remember? 

 

16 hours ago, SFDanny said:

First, and foremost, because if we assume Ned is doing so during the time of Jon's conception, he is traveling, at best in your scenario under the protection of an agreement to talk with Rhaegar. Rhaegar who at this time commands no troops or territory, but is hidden from his father as well as the rebels. Any agreement with Rhaegar is worthless in commanding safe passage through any loyalist territory, until after the Battle of the Bells when he comes north and takes commands of rebuilding the loyalist army. Even then, it is a huge stretch to believe he can do so without Aerys's knowledge and approval.

Or he wasn't under any protection. He could just avoid any major towns on the way, and take the tiny risk.

Travelling through enemy territory just isn't a big deal when you're talking about small groups in huge land at a medieval level of social organisation and technology. It happens quite a bit in ASOIAF. There's the BWB, who've been at loose in a war zone for years. Arya & the Hound, Bran & co's whole journey. Brienne and Jaime did get caught eventually, but even that took a while and they were being chased by people who knew not only that they were actually there to chase, but roughly where they were going. 

16 hours ago, SFDanny said:

It also suggest an approval by not only Ned sneaking off to see his sister, but of all the rebel commanders.

Only if they knew. 

16 hours ago, SFDanny said:

This at a time when it is clearly a fight to the death between rebel and Targaryen. Just how does one negotiate a peace between the two sides whilst Aerys's sits the throne, and the rebels still command troops in the field? I can't imagine a way to get those negotiations even started. Does the hidden Rhaegar promise to set aside his father if the rebels agree to dismiss their banners and go home? What power does Rhaegar have to enforce his side of the bargain? None.

You've dismissed one scenario for an agreement between Ned and Rhaegar, but what about all the other possible scenarios one can imagine for them having a reason for talks? Maybe Rhaegar didn't want them to dismiss their banners at all, but rather wanted them to put him, rather than Robert, on the throne? Maybe Rhaegar offered to hand Lyanna back in exchange for an agreement to exile rather than kill Aerys? Who knows. Rhaegar's actions are frankly so mysterious there's no end to the possible reasons he might have had for proposing secret talks with Ned.

16 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Lastly, you imagine that Ned and Lyanna take this precious opportunity to have sex with each other, right under the noses of the Kingsguard? It does get stranger and stranger as one goes down the dark path, doesn't it?

I make no assumption on how close the KG's noses were to Lyanna at the time. Before you could reasonably answer that, you'd have to determine whether Lyanna was being guarded or protected at the time. Until we know that, all bets are off. 

 

16 hours ago, SFDanny said:

 It is a huge stretch to believe Benjen was not needed in Winterfell from the moment his Father went south for the wedding - a central act in his southron ambitions. 

Could the young Benjen have defied his father and not shown up? Possibly. How likely do you think that is?

Benjen the guy who mysteriously rushed off to the wall for unexplained reasons shortly afterwards, you mean? 

The guy who's sister and eldest brother had more than a touch of the wolf blood that lead them to early graves?

The guy who seems to have been actively defying his father's wishes  for years by secretly helping Lyanna train at combat?

I don't think it's that unlikely, to be honest!

16 hours ago, SFDanny said:

So, no, it was not considered incest when the Targaryens did it, because incest means it was forbidden. 

We're talking at cross-purposes a bit here. The link is in that they are the children of incest by the perspective of the reader. Whether the individuals in question would have called doesn't change that. We see three main characters that uniquely share a few things that we would consider extraordinary. That's an oddity. 

 

16 hours ago, SFDanny said:

You got Jon and Dany being of the same generation? She's his aunt, if you believe R+L=J, and if you don't he is still the son of the rebellion's generation while she is the sister of that same generation. Not a big deal, it depends on how one uses the word "generation."

Good point, "generation" is probably a bad word for it. There's a clear division in the books between the characters who are becoming adults and the characters who have been adults. The participants of the rebellion is giving way to the children of the rebels. In terms of family generations, Dany belongs with Ned, Robert, Cersei etc, as the child of the generation that was the parents of the rebels. However she's becoming an adult at the time when the generation of Jon, Joff etc are becoming adults. 

Tyrion is an oddity in that he's too young to be part of the rebellion "generation" but too old to be part of the children "generation". Something of a bridge between the two, he's possibly the only character (though I wonder about Benjen) who is able to converse with both generations as an equal, an interesting angle I haven't really seen explored. 

That does fit quite nicely with the idea of Tyrion the half-man being half-way Lannister exemplar, not quite incesty enough to properly take the place of the bad-seed true exemplar of the Lannister clan, Joff. 

16 hours ago, SFDanny said:

What bothers me here is that one legitimate parallel is observed - Jon, Dany, and Tyrion's mothers may have all died during their births - but this, of course, assumes Lyanna is Jon's mother, and we then jump to the conclusion that other similarities must follow.

I think you have the order the wrong way around. We can already see similarities. The three main characters from the three main families, all in some degree of exile, the bastards and broken things. It's because we're already looking for similarities that we notice a similarity between two of those characters -- Tyrion and Dany's mothers both died in childbirth. Obviously to confirm it's part of the pattern, you'd look to see if that same similarity was shared by the third. In this case we don't know for sure, but we do know that it would match in the third case as well if the prime suspect for Jon's mother turns out to have actually been his mother. 

16 hours ago, SFDanny said:

We know Ned looks at the coloring of the children from Baratheon/Lannister marriages of the past and his viewing the contrast of Robert's bastards. We know he observes as we do their closeness, and we know he becomes convinced that the Lannister's tried to murder Bran in order to silence him. These are all things we know by many parts of the text. By contrast, there is nothing that hints at Lyanna having sex with any of her family. It's all looking back from an assumption of incest in the family helping Ned to understand the nature of the Jaime/Cersei relationship, not evidence to support eh assumption in the first place.

The point I'm making is that those facts you discuss that we know do not hint at Cersei having sex with any of her family either.

Attempting to murder Bran does not hint at incest.

The lack of Baratheon genes in Cersie's children does not point at incest.

The closeness of Cersei and her fraternal twin and personal bodyguard does not point at incest.

Consider Ned's process of detection, as deerstalker and pipe at the ready, he narrows down the suspects. Cersei's children have a secret father. Someone who might frequent the court but wasn't Robert. That could be Jaime or it could be one of many other people, or Moonboy, for all I know.

How does the fact that the Lannisters attempted to murder Bran narrow down that list of suspects? It doesn't, as any one of the potential fathers wouldn't stop this from being fatal to Lannister hopes if it got out.

The blondeness of the children narrows down the suspects to a non-Baratheon. Jaime+many other people - Baratheons+Moonboy. 

Twins being close doesn't mean they are having sex, so that doesn't narrow it down to Jaime either.

We're still left with Jaime+many other people-Baratheons+Moonboy. 

We see the cogs of Ned's thought process when he figures out that Robert is not the father. We don't even see a cog turn when he figures out that Jaime is. 

There's something in Ned's thought process that we either do not witness or possibly GRRM just forgot. It could just be a plot hole. On the other hand if it's an actual hole, this theory would fill it, but the three above wouldn't. Jaime+many other people-Baratheon+moonboy, for all I know=/=Jaime.

16 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Anyway, my wandering thoughts on your interesting thought experiment. I like you R+L=J essay much more.

Oh I prefer the Starkcest one. However I'm far more persuaded by the R+L=J one.

[Kingmonkey]

6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

If we accept the idea that Ser Jeor has a lemon tree planted on Bear Island in order to have his lemon with his beer that would certainly be more in world proof that the trees can survive outside of their native climates

Bear Island has trees, Braavos doesn't. Q.E.D!

Bear Island is almost twice as far north of Dorne as Braavos is. Maybe they have Blue Winter Lemons? 

[Kingmonkey]

7 hours ago, JNR said:

That's true, but if your only evidence for Lyanna loving Rhaegar is that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, then you have no evidence for Lyanna loving Rhaegar.

And a little cumin in a ragu gives it a spicy twist, but that's not relevant either. Why bring Rhaegar into this? I didn't claim that Lyanna loved Rhaegar.  On the contrary, I wrote the RLJ essay entirely neutral to the love angle, to show how that was by no means necessary to the RLJ theory. This is not an either/or situation, you know -- it's even possible she loved neither. I pointed out that there is no evidence for Lyanna loving Robert, because the question was about whether Lyanna loved Robert.

7 hours ago, JNR said:

This is only a problem to solve if you know Lyanna and the Kingsguard were in the same place at the time Jon was conceived.

The problem with your argument is in the word "Kingsguard". Which is in your reply, but not in what you were replying to. Why bring the Kingsguard into this? I didn't claim the Kingsuard were with Lyanna all the time. You think she was completely unguarded? In a hypothetical scenario where Ned was being allowed into the camp? I think guards would be pretty likely.

7 hours ago, JNR said:

I'll be referring to this post when TWOW is out. 

Cool. Try not to run out of straw before then. 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

When we see a symbolic link that fits perfectly, we tend to assume such a perfect fit couldn't be accidental. That's a quite natural assumption, and because that perfect link seems like solid evidence on its own, it's a very understandable slip-up to not dig deeply enough on trying to falsify it. 

This should be a lesson to us all. Just because something looks intentional doesn't mean GRRM intended it. We should remember that even if we're right about our conclusions, it's a fair bet that some percentage of the evidence we used to get there is something we read into it that GRRM never intended. 

Ooh quite right Professor Kingmonkey! Remember this lesson boys and girls lest you're hauled in front of the class and instructed to grab your ankles.

[Kingmonkey]

35 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Ooh quite right Professor Kingmonkey! Remember this lesson boys and girls lest you're hauled in front of the class and instructed to grab your ankles.

Well I'm terribly sorry for saying it was an understandable mistake and suggesting that we all do that sometimes. I take it all back!

[SFDanny]

3 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Ahhh I hate to do this to you SFD, but you've forgotten the one memory of Ned's we actually get from the Rebellion, which is where he wandered off on his own (well, with a small handful of men), leaving his troops in some unnamed location to go on a secret assignment. The away mission to the tower of joy, remember?

So, that's why it's Eddard T. Stark? Always sneaking away to ... 

No, I haven't forgotten the away party to the Tower of Joy. In the paragraph you don't quote, I did describe the changing nature of Ned's situation as he calls his banners and takes up command of the northern army during the rebellion? Did I not? How the Fisherman's daughter's time period is different than when he is in charge of an army? I thought I did, anyway. The same is true after the surrender at Storm's End. With the last surrender of massed loyalist forces, Ned is free to sneak away on his personal mission. Not so likely during the year long rebellion itself. While I did not say this about the time period in which Ned goes to the Tower of Joy, I did point out that the time in which he is on his own and during which time the Fisherman's daughter encounter is supposed to have taken place is not the same time as the time Jon is conceived. That is also true, let me say now, about the time period after Storm's End when Ned leads his six friends to the tower. So, thanks for the reminder, but I did not forget. It's just a very different set of conditions he is operating under.

Sorry, kingmonkey, but I've been running around much of the day, and don't have time to respond to your whole post. Gone tomorrow with family, so tomorrow night. As always it's been fun. Later.

 

[SFDanny]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Does that even matter? I pursue ideas because they interest me. What is this? The conformity police? You guys need to loosen up.

No, this is me asking you, for an honest answer to your motives. You gave one, so, thank you. I just don't like wasting time if some one is really trolling to stir up shit. The truth is I found your post remarkably far beyond what is in the text, and I couldn't decide if you were trolling or serious. 

[LynnS]

I think that Ned dreaming of Lyanna in association with the tower; doesn't place her at the tower.  Images and events from life can merge one into the other in dreams.  For example:

- killing Ser Arthur, the finest knight of the realm in Neds' view causes Ned to dream of his dead sister a woman child of surpassing lovliness and the knight of the laughing tree

- the ToJ is an ancient round watchtower; the First keep at Winterfell is an ancient round watchtower

- Ned buries 8 people beneath the ToJ with stones from the tower; there is a ancient lichyard at the base of the First Keep

- Ned dream of Lyanna's statue located in the crypts of Winterfell - the entrance to the crypts is located beside the First Keep

- he dreams of the seven good friends in shadow but the KG are vivid in his dream - he covers them with stone just as he covered Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna is stone.  

- specifically he covers them with 'bloody' stone from the ToJ; he dreams of a blood red sky

- the 3KG represent the sword, shield and horse; Lyanna's brothers and father were also her sword, shield and horse

- Ned dreams of a storm of rose petals and blue as the eyes of death; he dreams of the kings of winter watching him with eyes of ice 

- the statue of Lyanna with a garland of blue roses weeping blood is a christian reference to statues of the madonna weeping blood - apparitions of this type are said to be accompanied with the scent of roses - the garland of roses is a forerunner to the rosary

- praying using a rosary is associated with the 15 promises of the virgin mary,  promises of protection;

So while we are being told something about Lyanna and Jon; this doesn't place her at the ToJ in my view. The only reference we have that isn't a dream is Edric Dayne's story about Wylla the nursemaid at Starfall.

[Ygrain]

14 hours ago, kimim said:

It sounds like Varys wants Dany and Drogo (or at least Drogo) to land while Westeros is united, which makes it sound like he wants Drogo to go down in defeat. That doesn't make him a fan of either Dany, Drogo, or Aegon.

He is definitely not. Illyrio says outright that Dany was expected to die on the Dothraki sea, and I believe that when he told Viserys not to go, it was merely a mind game to make Viserys go and get himself killed.

14 hours ago, kimim said:

It does make him a fan of a united Westeros: Faced with a bunch of barbarians, Lannisters, Starks, Baratheons, on the verge of civil war, come together and fight.

And spend their forces, not to mention a couple of convenient casualties in the high ranks, so that Aegon remains unopposed when he sweeps in to save the day.

13 hours ago, SFDanny said:

If we accept the idea that Ser Jeor has a lemon tree planted on Bear Island in order to have his lemon with his beer that would certainly be more in world proof that the trees can survive outside of their native climates, but it would be meaningless as an indication that Dany had ever been there.

If there can be lemon trees on Bear Island, so there can be in Braavos :-)

12 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 I posit that Ashara's dishonoring didn't happen until later in Kings Landing right before the rebellion.

Discounting Barristan's account because...?

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

No, this is me asking you, for an honest answer to your motives. You gave one, so, thank you. I just don't like wasting time if some one is really trolling to stir up shit. The truth is I found your post remarkably far beyond what is in the text, and I couldn't decide if you were trolling or serious. 

God dammit SFDanny.  What do you think trolling is if it isn't attacking someone's character and motive in the way that you are attacking Crystal Feather FFS.  Is the crow calling the raven black?  What the eff is wrong with people.