Prophecies and visions: Past & Future

[Greywater-Watch]

Just thought about characteristics of some prophets in terms of visions. I try to stick to evidence we have. Communication is separated and appears under "remarks"

R'hllor

actors: Melisandre, Thoros, Moqorro, Benerro

requires: fire (no power e.g. on the hill of High Heart)

visibility: future

precision:

blurred visions

Moqorro high precision

Melisandre low, medium and high precision; always high precision when it concerns her own safety

remarks: possibly capable of influencing the future through royal-blood sacrifice

 

Oldtown

actors: Archmaester Marwyn

requires: Obsidian candle and dragons in the world

visibility: future and/or present (Sam's arrival)

precision: high

 

High Heart

actors: Ghost of High Heart

requires: unknown

visibility: future

precision: high

 

Greendreamer (no warg)

actors: Jojen Reed

requires: unknown

visibility: future

precision: high, requires interpretation

 

Warg & Greenseer

actors: Brandon Stark, Bloodraven

requires: Weirwood

visibility: past, future, present

precision: high

remarks: communication in real time probably possible through weirwood network, delivering dreams/messages even to vision-unskilled people (Brandon to Theon kneeling at the weirwood in Winterfell, Jaime's dream on a weirwood stump after leaving Harrenhal). It seems that injuries/maiming enhance the sensitivity to having or receiving weirwood-dreams/visions.

 

Shadowbinder from Asshai

actors: Quaithe, (Melisandre)

requires: unknown

visibility: future, presence

precision: high but requires interpretation

 

Warlocks

actors: Pyat Pree, House of the Undying

requires: drinking shade-of-the-evening

visibility: past, future

precision: requires interpretation

 

Blood Magic

actors:Maggy (Maegi from Lannisport), (Mirri Maz Duur)

requires: blood

visibility: future

precision: high (requires interpretation)

 

(nearly) Drowned

actor: Patchface

requires: drowning close to death

visibility: future

precision: very cryptic

 

Warg

actors: Bran, Jon, Arya, Varamyr, Rickon (?)

requires: warging into a wolf or direwolf

visibility: present (through the animal's eyes)

precision: very precise; the animal can be moved to act or see at the Warg's will

 

Dragondreamers

actors: Daenerys, Maester Aemon

requires: Targaeryen blood

visibility: future (Daenerys sees her own); Maester Aemon dreams of Dragons, probably sensing their existance

precision: good

 

I may have missed some details or prophets.

Interesting to me is:

1) Greenseers appear to be best equipped as they can look at past and future, as well as communicate in real time.

2) R'hllor fire-looking does not work at certain places (e.g. top of High Heart hill)

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

@Greywater-Watch

Cool chart. I love me some chart action! 

You could add Benerro under the R'hollor category. While we don't get a first hand view of him reading flames he knew the Sealasori Qhoran (probably spelled wrong) would not reach Qarth.

Quote

"She will never reach Qarth. Benerro has seen it in his fires." The crone smiled a vulpine smile.

Also, we do not know if Bran will be able to see the future through the wierwood net. If you are referring to him being able to see the future through greendreams I'm with you but this requires interpretation, making it less precise. I just want to make sure you are not assuming we can see the future through wiernet. 

[Greywater-Watch]

53 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

@Greywater-Watch

Cool chart. I love me some chart action! 

You could add Benerro under the R'hollor category. While we don't get a first hand view of him reading flames he knew the Sealasori Qhoran (probably spelled wrong) would not reach Qarth.

Also, we do not know if Bran will be able to see the future through the wierwood net. If you are referring to him being able to see the future through greendreams I'm with you but this requires interpretation, making it less precise. I just want to make sure you are not assuming we can see the future through wiernet. 

ad Benerro: I noted the main actors, but for sure you are right

ad future-seeing of greenseers/wargs: You are right, I tried to make that clear. Weirwoods allow (as far as we know) a look in the past & communication through weirwood net in the present; future look is available through green dreams

[Jon's Queen Consort]

7 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Melisandre low, medium and high precision; always high precision when it concerns her own safety

It seems that Mel's powers are stonger at the Wall. 

7 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Shadowbinder from Asshai

actors: Quaithe

Mel is also a shadowbinder.

[Greywater-Watch]

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Mel is also a shadowbinder

Are you sure?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Are you sure?

Yes. She is a red priestess and a shadowbinder.

[Curled Finger]

Hey @Greywater-Watch, charts are boss and this is a nice break down.   We recently had a discussion regarding the possible levels of dead of some characters.   Shortly prior to that there was a really interesting observation (I wish I could remember the name of the topic!) regarding darkness and the greensight power.    That said, we sort of found that injury seems to open that 3rd eye, making a greenseer or dreamer more amenable to said power.   Jojen almost died of fever, Bloodraven lost his eye, Bran lost his legs--like that.   I can't think of any instance of dragon dreamers requiring an injury to have prophetic dreams, but it does seem to matter where green power is concerned.    For all it's worth.  

[Greywater-Watch]

13 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Hey @Greywater-Watch, charts are boss and this is a nice break down.   We recently had a discussion regarding the possible levels of dead of some characters.   Shortly prior to that there was a really interesting observation (I wish I could remember the name of the topic!) regarding darkness and the greensight power.    That said, we sort of found that injury seems to open that 3rd eye, making a greenseer or dreamer more amenable to said power.   Jojen almost died of fever, Bloodraven lost his eye, Bran lost his legs--like that.   I can't think of any instance of dragon dreamers requiring an injury to have prophetic dreams, but it does seem to matter where green power is concerned.    For all it's worth.  

Interesting, seems to fit. In that logic, also Jaime's dream having left Harrenhal would also have been possible as he lost his hand short time before, same for Theon.

And I cannot recall any other of the prophecy-gifted (or vision-sensitive) characters having been injured/maimed.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Interesting, seems to fit. In that logic, also Jaime's dream having left Harrenhal would also have been possible as he lost his hand short time before, same for Theon.

And I cannot recall any other of the prophecy-gifted (or vision-sensitive) characters having been injured/maimed.

Yes, I forgot Theon (and wasn't sure if Jamie's dream was before or after the handectomy).  But there you have it.   Euron may or may not have greensight or a form of it, but the smiling eye under the patch is not injured, just really creepy.   Gotta make one wonder what happened to him--maybe when he lost his sanity in the storm?  

[Macgregor of the North]

On ‎06‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 9:55 AM, Greywater-Watch said:

Warg & Greenseer

actors: Brandon Stark, Bloodraven

Cool thread man.

I have one small niggle though, sorry. Bloodraven is not a Warg. A warg is a skinchanger with a particualr connection to a Wolf/Direwolve.

Bloodraven is a skinchanger and greenseer, he is no Warg and can not 'Warg' other beings. Infact nobody 'Wargs' anything, they skinchange other beings.

And you missed out Jon, he is a Warg.

Sorry, i dont mean to come across as picky.

[Macgregor of the North]

Up thread it is mentioned about darkness playing a part in the third eye opening and helping greeenseers realise their powers etc.

There is truth to this, Brans third eye opens in the darkness of the Crypts.

"Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon."

And in the cave the Cotf put out all the lights to cloak Bran in darkness, I believe this is to heighten his powers. Also BR tells him some things about the darkness that some people I think wrongly assume points to a sinister BR vibe, but he could just be meaning that the darkness will help Brans powers.

"There he sat, listening to the hoarse whispers of his teacher. "Never fear the darkness, Bran." The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

There is something to back all this up in TWOIAF I believe:

"These new Lorathi were worshippers of Boash, the Blind God. Rejecting all other deities, the followers of Boash ate no flesh, drank no wine, and walked barefoot through the world, clad only in hair shirts and hides. Their eunuch priests wore eyeless hoods in honor of their god; only in darkness, they believed, would their third eye open, allowing them to see the "higher truths" of creation that lay concealed behind the world's illusions. The worshippers of Boash believed that all life was sacred and eternal; that men and women were equal; that lords and peasants, rich and poor, slave and master, man and beast were all alike, all equally worthy, all creatures of god."

It specifically mentions third eye opening and darkness playing a part in that.

[Greywater-Watch]

7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Cool thread man.

I have one small niggle though, sorry. Bloodraven is not a Warg. A warg is a skinchanger with a particualr connection to a Wolf/Direwolve.

Bloodraven is a skinchanger and greenseer, he is no Warg and can not 'Warg' other beings. Infact nobody 'Wargs' anything, they skinchange other beings.

And you missed out Jon, he is a Warg.

Sorry, i dont mean to come across as picky.

I have thought that any skinchanger could also enter a wolf and thus automatically any skinchanger was also a warg, but not every warg was a skinchanger (as entering birds, cats, bears or even humans seems to be more difficult).

Am I wrong?

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

17 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I have thought that any skinchanger could also enter a wolf and thus automatically any skinchanger was also a warg, but not every warg was a skinchanger (as entering birds, cats, bears or even humans seems to be more difficult).

Am I wrong?

I think you are right. Warg: dogs, wolves. 

Skinchanger: animals (which would include dogs, wolves)

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

@Greywater-Watch

Had a thought, take it or leave it. It's your chart, and it's awesome!

What about adding "dragon dreamers" Examples would be Daenys, Daeron the Drunkard, Dany, Daemon II Blackfyre, and more.

Just a thought. Rock on it your b.a. chart.

I'm so glad you found his @Curled Finger I know you love charts as well.

[ravenous reader]

A few notes:

Mel is a shadowbinder, or she wouldn't have been able to 'give birth to' the shadow assassin that killed Renly.

Although we have not yet seen Bran using the 'weirwood net' to access the future, only the past, it's nevertheless implied that this ought to be possible considering that all time is one for a weirwood:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran IV

"I only have two."

"You have three. The crow gave you the third, but you will not open it." He had a slow soft way of speaking. "With two eyes you see my face. With three you could see my heart. With two you can see that oak tree there. With three you could see the acorn the oak grew from and the stump that it will one day become. With two you see no farther than your walls. With three you would gaze south to the Summer Sea and north beyond the Wall."

'Gazing south to the Summer Sea ('sea' is a pun on 'see') ' or 'seeing the acorn' is a metaphor for seeing into the deep past.  Likewise, 'gazing north beyond the Wall' or 'seeing the stump' or 'breaking through the curtain' is a metaphor for seeing into the future.  

Recall the so-called 'coma dream' in which I believe Bran gazing to the northernmost limits of perception caught a glimpse of an apocalyptic future which terrified him, 'the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge', 'now you see why you must fly'...

By the way, how do you propose classifying the 'coma dream' in terms of your scheme?

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

"She will leave on the morrow, with us," Lord Beric assured the little woman. "We're taking her to Riverrun, to her mother."

"Nay," said the dwarf. "You're not. The black fish holds the rivers now. If it's the mother you want, seek her at the Twins. For there's to be a wedding." She cackled again. "Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you'll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still . . . they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists." She drank the last of the wine in four long swallows, flung the skin aside, and pointed her stick at Lord Beric. "I'll have my payment now. I'll have the song you promised me."

The acorn could not 'dream the oak' if future prophecy were not possible via the weirwoods.  They look to the past and 'remember'.  They look to the future and demand the song that was 'promised' (a promise is basically a future prophecy, e.g. the prince that was promised).

 

Another to add to your list:

The drowned god

Patchface

Figurative and/or actual drowning/near-drowning as catalyst

Future vision

Probably highly accurate, but at the expense of being highly cryptic and therefore open to interpretation

[Macgregor of the North]

20 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I have thought that any skinchanger could also enter a wolf and thus automatically any skinchanger was also a warg, but not every warg was a skinchanger (as entering birds, cats, bears or even humans seems to be more difficult).

Am I wrong?

All you need to do is read the Varamyr prologue. The term Warg originated with the first men descended Wildlings and refers to skinchangers who keep a wolf as their 'companion', the wolf brothers Varamyr called them. 

The only people referred to as Wargs in the book so far are these wolf brothers that Varamyr meets at the skinchanger gathering in his youth, Varamyr himself, Robb, Bran, and Jon Snow many many times by the Wildlings when they see he runs with Ghost.

BR is never referred to as a Warg. Arya and Rickon still have high possibility of being referred to as Wargs in the story, we know they are but Arya is split from Nymeria and Rickon has not been seen in a long time but technically they are Wargs to.

BR no doubt has the potential to slip a Wolf but he is not a Warg. Like I said read the Varamyr prologue again and some of Jon's chapters from Clash onwards you will see what I mean.

[ravenous reader]

3 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

BR no doubt has the potential to slip a Wolf but he is not a Warg

So you're saying a 'warg' is a 'monogamous' lupine skinchanger..?!  Making Bloodraven a 'promiscuous' one?

Quote

The Mystery Knight

How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear. Most of the tales were only tales, Dunk did not doubt, but no one could doubt that Bloodraven had informers everywhere.

I know the difference between 'warging' and 'skinchanging' is a big deal for you personally, but I think you're fighting a losing battle.  Some linguistic trends are so irresistible they're beyond your control, even fictional ones.  It's like trying to tell people to stop talking about 'texting' and to go back to using the word 'typing'...

[Macgregor of the North]

9 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

So you're saying a 'warg' is a 'monogamous' lupine skinchanger..?!  Making Bloodraven a 'promiscuous' one?

I know the difference between 'warging' and 'skinchanging' is a big deal for you personally, but I think you're fighting a losing battle.  Some linguistic trends are so irresistible they're beyond your control, even fictional ones.  It's like trying to tell people to stop talking about 'texting' and to go back to using the word 'typing'...

I am simply telling people that BR is not a Warg. He is greenseer and skinchanger. A Warg is different from a skinchanger. That's simply a fact in the books.

This next bit is off topic sorry OP.

But I agree, it's a losing battle but one I'll fight for all my time on here lol as there is actually no difference between 'skinchanging' and 'Warging' like you say as 'Warging' is not even a word in asoiaf and never was. 

Nobody can 'Warg' anything. Bran does not Warg Hodor, Orell never warged his eagle etc etc. The term has never been used in that way in the books once.

They skinchange them or slip their skin.

Im not losing sleep over it or anything hehe, but it's something I thought was glaringly obvious. 

Anyways, just my two cents folks 

[Macgregor of the North]

20 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I think you are right. Warg: dogs, wolves. 

Skinchanger: animals (which would include dogs, wolves)

Varamyr is a Warg. He refers to himself as a Warg primarily above all other labels but he also has control over other animals such as the shadow cat, snowbear and eagle.

The reason he is a Warg is because he has three wolve companions who he shares the skin of often.

 

[Impbread]

On 11/6/2016 at 4:55 AM, Greywater-Watch said:

snip