Heresy 192 The Wheel of Time

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its never actually explained.

OK I might have an explanation.  I'll bring it up when the Wall discussion comes up.

[Matthew.]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

True, but we know that the children and the giants are and always have been around, but she doesn't distinguish between them and the walkers in answering Ban's question.

What is there to distinguish? The answer to Bran's question is, yes, the white walkers can be found beyond the Wall--it's what she's been fleeing. That doesn't mean they could have always been found beyond the Wall between the end of the LN and their current return.

[Black Crow]

1 minute ago, Matthew. said:

What is there to distinguish? The answer to Bran's question is, yes, the white walkers can be found beyond the Wall--it's what she's been fleeing. That doesn't mean they could have always been found beyond the Wall between the end of the LN and their current return.

Because we know that the children and the giants have always been there and that's the context of Bran's question. In replying to that specific question she doesn't agree that's where the first went but that the walkers are new.

It may seem like semantics but on an ordinary reading of both question and answer we're presented with a straightforward statement that all three are to be found beyond the Wall, which was after all [we are told] raised to prevent the latter coming south again.

[Matthew.]

12 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Because we know that the children and the giants have always been there and that's the context of Bran's question. In replying to that specific question she doesn't agree that's where the first went but that the walkers are new.

No, "have they always been there" is not the context of Bran's question. The basic question he's asking is "Are the legends real? Can the stuff of Old Nan's tales be found beyond the Wall?" Nothing in the conversation gives us a broader context to suggest that the WWs were always there, so this interpretation is a reach.

If the WWs were a biological race, one of "the old races," then perhaps it would be important to assume that the WWs were always there, yet the WWs being created by magic fits just fine with the idea that they haven't been seen in 8,000ish years--they haven't been seen, because nobody was making them.

[Black Crow]

32 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

No, "have they always been there" is not the context of Bran's question. The basic question he's asking is "Are the legends real? Can the stuff of Old Nan's tales be found beyond the Wall?" Nothing in the conversation gives us a broader context to suggest that the WWs were always there, so this interpretation is a reach.

If the WWs were a biological race, one of "the old races," then perhaps it would be important to assume that the WWs were always there, yet the WWs being created by magic fits just fine with the idea that they haven't been seen in 8,000ish years--they haven't been seen, because nobody was making them.

We'll have to agree to differ 

[Melifeather]

If the white walkers were always there, the wildlings wouldn't just now be fleeing.

[Matthew.]

Just as an additional thought, my argument here isn't to specifically argue that the Others have only recently returned (although that is what I believe) - it's to argue that that specific quote has no relevance to that argument; that Osha/Bran conversation is one that could occur in either scenario. Whether they were always there, or have only recently returned, the Others can be found beyond the Wall.

Furthermore, if you're an in-world character who perceives the Others as a biological race, like the giants, then you have no reason to question whether or not they were always there, even if you're the first human to encounter the Others in 8,000 years; if they're a biological race, then logically, they must have been up there somewhere, breeding, otherwise they'd be extinct. However, from our point of view, we know that the concept of "extinction" doesn't apply to things like shadow assassins and white walkers.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Just as an additional thought, my argument here isn't to specifically argue that the Others have only recently returned (although that is what I believe) - it's to argue that that specific quote has no relevance to that argument; that Osha/Bran conversation is one that could occur in either scenario. Whether they were always there, or have only recently returned, the Others can be found beyond the Wall.

Furthermore, if you're an in-world character who perceives the Others as a biological race, like the giants, then you have no reason to question whether or not they were always there, even if you're the first human to encounter the Others in 8,000 years; if they're a biological race, then logically, they must have been up there somewhere, breeding, otherwise they'd be extinct. However, from our point of view, we know that the concept of "extinction" doesn't apply to things like shadow assassins and white walkers.

I'll actually agree with both, but up to a point and that is the business of fire consuming and ice preserving. Stannis' shadows are soon consumed as the smoke they are. Once a white shadow is created, how long does it last?  I hesitate to use the phrase what is dead may never die, but the Wild Hunt of legend are very old and this is reflected in the costuming in the mummers' version.

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If the white walkers were always there, the wildlings wouldn't just now be fleeing.

The occasional white shadows glimpsed in the wood are one thing, but when they come riding dead horses and dead men walk then its time to get out of Dodge,

[Melifeather]

Just a GOT spoiler: 

Arya will be reunited with Nymeria on S7. Should be interesting!

[Black Crow]

Good news but while technically a spoiler its hardly going to be an unexpected twist 

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The occasional white shadows glimpsed in the wood are one thing, but when they come riding dead horses and dead men walk then its time to get out of Dodge,

That still doesn't really fit satisfactorily though--not even with your own interpretations (eg, "the problem here is that winter has no king.") Why would the white walkers be nothing more than a white shadow glimpsed occasionally for such a prolonged period? Why would these living weapons, this sorcery without a hilt, these creations of ice and death that exist to kill men be on their best behavior for thousands of years?

Not only does it not fit with our present assumptions about the nature of the WWs, it doesn't fit with any of the broader storytelling context, which suggests a profound ignorance on the part of both the wildlings and especially the Night's Watch. You reference these ideas like "the white shadow occasionally glimpsed in the woods," or "the white rangers of the woods, harmless until they start raising the dead" as though it's something established by the text, yet no such accounts actually exist, even in rumor, save for the extremely recent encounters with the Craster Era white walkers.

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Just a GOT spoiler: 

Be wary on the web; a full plot outline for season 7 was leaked around two months ago, and almost all of the subsequent filming news seems to suggest that the plot leak was accurate.

[LynnS]

19 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

That still doesn't really fit satisfactorily though--not even with your own interpretations (eg, "the problem here is that winter has no king.") Why would the white walkers be nothing more than a white shadow glimpsed occasionally for such a prolonged period? Why would these living weapons, this sorcery without a hilt, these creations of ice and death that exist to kill men be on their best behavior for thousands of years?

Not only does it not fit with our present assumptions about the nature of the WWs, it doesn't fit with any of the broader storytelling context, which suggests a profound ignorance on the part of both the wildlings and especially the Night's Watch. You reference these ideas like "the white shadow occasionally glimpsed in the woods," or "the white rangers of the woods, harmless until they start raising the dead" as though it's something established by the text, yet no such accounts actually exist, even in rumor, save for the extremely recent encounters with the Craster Era white walkers.

Or could it have something to do with this story that the kindly old man tells Arya:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Arya II

 

"Death is not the worst thing," the kindly man replied. "It is His gift to us, an end to want and pain. On the day that we are born the Many-Faced God sends each of us a dark angel to walk through life beside us. When our sins and our sufferings grow too great to be borne, the angel takes us by the hand to lead us to the nightlands, where the stars burn ever bright.

Bearing in mind that so far we only know of six White Walkers from the prologue of GoT,  matching in number, the six Stark kids.  One of which has been dispatched by Sam and now there are five once again to match the five remaining Stark kids. 

[Black Crow]

26 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

That still doesn't really fit satisfactorily though--not even with your own interpretations (eg, "the problem here is that winter has no king.") Why would the white walkers be nothing more than a white shadow glimpsed occasionally for such a prolonged period? Why would these living weapons, this sorcery without a hilt, these creations of ice and death that exist to kill men be on their best behavior for thousands of years?

Not only does it not fit with our present assumptions about the nature of the WWs, it doesn't fit with any of the broader storytelling context, which suggests a profound ignorance on the part of both the wildlings and especially the Night's Watch. You reference these ideas like "the white shadow occasionally glimpsed in the woods," or "the white rangers of the woods, harmless until they start raising the dead" as though it's something established by the text, yet no such accounts actually exist, even in rumor, save for the extremely recent encounters with the Craster Era white walkers.

As to the first there are evidently very few of them. They don't have to be on their best behaviour, there just aint enough of them to be a real threat and as to the second the point I was making about the chapters covering the approach to Craster's and the first visit to it do show that the rangers and the wildlings know there's something nasty in the woodpile. That's tolerable. Once we get the testimony in from Tormund and at other wildlings its pretty obvious that what they're really afraid of are the wights.

[Black Crow]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Or could it have something to do with this story that the kindly old man tells Arya:

Bearing in mind that so far we only know of six White Walkers from the prologue of GoT,  matching in number, the six Stark kids.  One of which has been dispatched by Sam and now there are five once again to match the five remaining Stark kids. 

Few though they are, I'd strongly suspect that there are/were more than six of them. Nevertheless it is very hard to avoid the conclusion that if the Old Gods meant the children of Winterfell to have the direwolves [as we're repeatedly told in text] then a lot of effort went into it.

One moulded to each child; and, as you say the further co-incidence of the six walkers, the six pups and the six children, especially in the light of the Gared connection to link them all

[Matthew.]

52 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

As to the first there are evidently very few of them. They don't have to be on their best behaviour, there just aint enough of them to be a real threat...

There are evidently very few of them at present, and they are a real threat. The wildlings that Waymer, Will, and Gared find at the beginning were killed where they were sitting purely with the cold, so the question remains--why such a long period where the Others weren't raising the dead, or murdering people en mass with the cold winds?

If we say "well, there wasn't enough magic available to raise the dead, but just enough magic available to keep collecting tributes and creating white walkers," that seems like a dubious line of speculation, specifically designed to hand wave away an inconvenient question.

 

52 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

... chapters covering the approach to Craster's and the first visit to it do show that the rangers and the wildlings know there's something nasty in the woodpile.

Yes, they know there's something nasty there: Craster's disgusting harem of sister wives that he abuses, his general rudeness and attitude, the fact that he's murdering his sons, the fact that he straddles the line between wildling and friend of the Watch. Even before we bring in speculation about the Others, the rangers have ample reason to be discomforted by Craster's Keep.

This is yet another instance where the broader context of character behavior does not fit with an assumption that anyone truly knows that Craster's sons are becoming white walkers, as opposed to just being left out to die of exposure.

From the wildling end, why is it that, after a war that has lasted at least 3 years, Tormund floats the idea of killing Craster, but only because Craster is passing information to the Watch? Tormund lost a son to the WWs, a son he later had to slay as a wight--shouldn't he be furious if Craster's Keep is continuing to pump out new white walkers? Where are the angry mobs that should be descending on Craster's Keep, Mance's orders be damned?

Similarly, after the Watch has just suffered a crushing defeat at the Fist, there's plenty of anger directed at Craster, yet that anger is entirely centered around his attitude, his perceived stinginess as a host, the notion that he's withholding food...why isn't there any outrage at the fact that the Watch was just slaughtered by Craster's "sons?" Why isn't Mormont confronting Craster about what just happened, seeking answers, if he truly knows what has been happening at Craster's Keep? Why are Mormont's dying words an admission of ignorance?

Later still, Jon has made it one of the Watch's tasks to understand more of their enemy, yet nobody - be they wildling or brother - brings up the situation at Craster's keep... not even Aemon, who has handled communications within the Watch for decades, in addition to having an interest in arcane lore. If anyone should have insight to offer, it's Aemon, yet he seems as ignorant of the enemy as everyone else.

[TheMiddleHero]

I have read through this before, not sure I buy the inversion thing on the whole, it is a good read however... but I have had thoughts that Westeros is going through something of a restart or repeat to something very very similar to the Ulster cycle. We are entering another "Age of Heroes," a time where heroic deeds will be done, but not necessarily told truthfully down the line of time. It will end with races and lines of former kings being wiped out, but great stories told of their deeds.

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Matthew. said:

There are evidently very few of them at present, and they are a real threat. The wildlings that Waymer, Will, and Gared find at the beginning were killed where they were sitting purely with the cold, so the question remains--why such a long period where the Others weren't raising the dead, or murdering people en mass with the cold winds?

If we say "well, there wasn't enough magic available to raise the dead, but just enough magic available to keep collecting tributes and creating white walkers," that seems like a dubious line of speculation, specifically designed to hand wave away an inconvenient question.

But that's precisely what's happening. GRRM repeatedly makes the point in text that the old powers are wakening and that magic is coming back. Magic and magical things have existed but its only now, for some reason as yet undetermined, that they are gaining or regaining the power to do serious harm.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, TheMiddleHero said:

I have read through this before, not sure I buy the inversion thing on the whole, it is a good read however... but I have had thoughts that Westeros is going through something of a restart or repeat to something very very similar to the Ulster cycle. We are entering another "Age of Heroes," a time where heroic deeds will be done, but not necessarily told truthfully down the line of time. It will end with races and lines of former kings being wiped out, but great stories told of their deeds.

And its going to be their deeds, not those of the last lot of heroes. When the late and unlamented Viserys claimed Khal Drogo was Aegon the Conqueror come again he wasn't speaking literally.