Heresy 192 The Wheel of Time

[Matthew.]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

But that's precisely what's happening. GRRM repeatedly makes the point in text that the old powers are wakening and that magic is coming back. Magic and magical things have existed but its only now, for some reason as yet undetermined, that they are gaining or regaining the power to do serious harm.

Yes, that is the way the story is presented, which is precisely why I characterize the white walkers as 'returning,' rather than having always been there--from my point of view, the creation of a white walker (a magical entity) is magic that is every bit as extraordinary as raising the dead, or waking dragons from stone. It both fits with the storytelling conceit of magic returning, as well as the broader context of the WWs having been gone for so long that many doubt that they ever existed in the first place.

To go at this from a different angle, what is the plot value in insisting that the WWs were always out there (since the end of the LN, anyway) as opposed to having only recently returned? What significant ideas are only possible under that scenario, even though it's the interpretation that's less supported by the text?
_____

IMO, even the "Craster as sineater" interpretation doesn't require us to assume that the WWs have always been around. Craster need not be the latest in an unbroken line of sineaters; instead, he could represent the reawakening of an old practice. Think of Whitetree, right in the midst of the Haunted Forest - CotF lands, according to the Pact -, with its massive, well fed heart tree. Perhaps, when it became apparent that "the trees have eyes again," they decided it was necessary to resume sacrifices, driven by superstitious fear.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

Yes, that is the way the story is presented, which is precisely why I characterize the white walkers as 'returning,' rather than having always been there--from my point of view, the creation of a white walker (a magical entity) is magic that is every bit as extraordinary as raising the dead, or waking dragons from stone. It both fits with the storytelling conceit of magic returning, as well as the broader context of the WWs having been gone for so long that many doubt that they ever existed in the first place.

To go at this from a different angle, what is the plot value in insisting that the WWs were always out there (since the end of the LN, anyway) as opposed to having only recently returned? What significant ideas are only possible under that scenario, even though it's the interpretation that's less supported by the text?
_____

IMO, even the "Craster as sineater" interpretation doesn't require us to assume that the WWs have always been around. Craster need not be the latest in an unbroken line of sineaters; instead, he could represent the reawakening of an old practice. Think of Whitetree, right in the midst of the Haunted Forest - CotF lands, according to the Pact -, with its massive, well fed heart tree. Perhaps, when it became apparent that "the trees have eyes again," they decided it was necessary to resume sacrifices, driven by superstitious fear.

And I'll add onto the thoughts re: Craster. He may have always sacrificed his sons and they just died in the woods, but are now being used for blood sacrifice, or Mance talked him into restarting the practice, although it's hard to believe that even Craster would have killed any sons that were older than newborn.

I do think there is cause to suspect Bloodraven for doing something. I don't know what, but his position as greenseer only began roughly 30 years before the current story. If there weren't any problems before him and there are problems after, then he's our prime suspect.

The Children refer to him as the Last Greenseer, which seems odd, because the first thing that comes to mind is that there's no one after him, but he's not the final greenseer. He's only the latest in history. Which leads me to conclude that there hasn't been a greenseer in many years before him, and during that time everything was peachy keen. Doesn't he seem like a tool to you? Why do the Children need a human to be their greenseer?

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

To go at this from a different angle, what is the plot value in insisting that the WWs were always out there (since the end of the LN, anyway) as opposed to having only recently returned? What significant ideas are only possible under that scenario, even though it's the interpretation that's less supported by the text?
 

I'm more inclined to turn the question around and ask where is the plot value in denying their existence prior to the opening of the story?

Stripped right back what we get encapsulated in Bran's question and Osha's answer is that the giants, the children and the walkers really do exist outside of Old Nan's stories and Maester Luwin's history lessons, and are to be found north of the Wall - and they are coming back.

After all so far as the story goes the walkers have a presence in it long before we encounter the children as late as ADwD

[Black Crow]

32 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

And I'll add onto the thoughts re: Craster. He may have always sacrificed his sons and they just died in the woods, but are now being used for blood sacrifice, or Mance talked him into restarting the practice, although it's hard to believe that even Craster would have killed any sons that were older than newborn.

I do think there is cause to suspect Bloodraven for doing something. I don't know what, but his position as greenseer only began roughly 30 years before the current story. If there weren't any problems before him and there are problems after, then he's our prime suspect.

The Children refer to him as the Last Greenseer, which seems odd, because the first thing that comes to mind is that there's no one after him, but he's not the final greenseer. He's only the latest in history. Which leads me to conclude that there hasn't been a greenseer in many years before him, and during that time everything was peachy keen. Doesn't he seem like a tool to you? Why do the Children need a human to be their greenseer?

I'm still very much of the feeling its not a greenseer they want but a human greenseer who can open up the world of men to them. If they tried to compete with bigger and stronger men by creating changelings; the white walkers, there is a very short step from there to creating their own changeling greenseers who can straddle the gap between the two races, yet unlike the walkers remain firmly under the control of the weirwood.

[Melifeather]

I'm thinking it must be important that the greenseer be human, and to expand on that when the hammer of waters came down it could have been done to drown out human greenseers.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm more inclined to turn the question around and ask where is the plot value in denying their existence prior to the opening of the story?

Not prior to the opening of the story, per se--more that I don't believe there was any new white walkers being created before Craster began his sacrifices, with it being not entirely clear where that falls in the timeline.

As to the value...
- It fits with the net totality of the evidence, including in-world notions that the Others either haven't been seen for thousands of years, or may have never existed at all
- It fits thematically with magic's return, and the 'resurrection' of magical beings like the dragons
- It gives context to the ignorance of both the Watch and the wildlings; this is especially notable with the Watch. For example, the reason Sam can find nothing useful in the Watch's archives is because the era of the written word came well after any living man had encountered a white walker, or could commit their accounts to paper--instead, all they have is the same old incomplete bits of oral history and translated runes that everyone else draws upon.
- It fits better with the seeming contradiction of living weapons, weapons made to slaughter men, showing 8,000 years of restraint.

Most significantly, there's a potentially important plot question raised if it's only recently that the WWs have returned: Who started making white walkers again, and why?

You may not agree with any of that, but nonetheless, I do have reasons to prefer the reading that the Others have only recently returned, while I comparatively struggle to come up with any plot reasons for them to have been out there all along for 8,000 years--which isn't to say that reasons don't exist, just that I can't come up with any.

When I asked "what are the plot reasons for this interpretation," I wasn't asking facetiously, or mockingly.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I do think there is cause to suspect Bloodraven for doing something. I don't know what, but his position as greenseer only began roughly 30 years before the current story. If there weren't any problems before him and there are problems after, then he's our prime suspect.

Agreed. When we talk about "old power awakening" and the trees having eyes again, BR fits into that overall picture in a significant way. In particular, Qhorin's sentiment about the trees having eyes again raises the potential that there may have been a very, very long period where they didn't have eyes--a very long period where there were no active greenseers.

If nothing else, we can say that Craster's sacrifices were happening on BR's watch, so if he wasn't actively encouraging them, he also seemingly wasn't doing anything to stop them.

Other suspicious figures, to me, would be Mance and Howland. Mance because he refuses to let Tormund "shorten Craster by a head," even though they know Craster is helping the Watch, and Mance still isn't totally out of the game as of ADWD. For Howland, I'm being even more speculative, but it is interesting that he spent that winter on the Isle of Faces, and his absence from the current story has always seemed glaring to me.

To be clear, I'm not necessarily suggesting that any of these characters are being driven by purely sinister or evil motives. Depending on what the exact link is between House Stark and the Others, there may be other potential motives here for bringing back the white walkers; maybe someone determined that House Stark would have need of an army, and the old powers, or maybe this is a necessary step to fixing the seasons.

[Black Crow]

56 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

You may not agree with any of that, but nonetheless, I do have reasons to prefer the reading that the Others have only recently returned, while I comparatively struggle to come up with any plot reasons for them to have been out there all along for 8,000 years--which isn't to say that reasons don't exist, just that I can't come up with any.

When I asked "what are the plot reasons for this interpretation," I wasn't asking facetiously, or mockingly.

I appreciate that, and as usual I think that we're out of step rather than marching in opposite directions. Yes its possible that Craster didn't have a predecessor or hasn't had for many years, but as I said earlier I'm mindful of the business of cold preserving and the consequent possibility that some of the wild hunt may be very old indeed. And if they are old a degree of caution is required. They aren't invulnerable. I therefore see no reason why they should be distinguished from the giants and children; what has changed is the return of magic and with it the ability to be dangerous.

[Melifeather]

49 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Agreed. When we talk about "old power awakening" and the trees having eyes again, BR fits into that overall picture in a significant way. In particular, Qhorin's sentiment about the trees having eyes again raises the potential that there may have been a very, very long period where they didn't have eyes--a very long period where there were no active greenseers.

If nothing else, we can say that Craster's sacrifices were happening on BR's watch, so if he wasn't actively encouraging them, he also seemingly wasn't doing anything to stop them.

Other suspicious figures, to me, would be Mance and Howland. Mance because he refuses to let Tormund "shorten Craster by a head," even though they know Craster is helping the Watch, and Mance still isn't totally out of the game as of ADWD. For Howland, I'm being even more speculative, but it is interesting that he spent that winter on the Isle of Faces, and his absence from the current story has always seemed glaring to me.

To be clear, I'm not necessarily suggesting that any of these characters are being driven by purely sinister or evil motives. Depending on what the exact link is between House Stark and the Others, there may be other potential motives here for bringing back the white walkers; maybe someone determined that House Stark would have need of an army, and the old powers, or maybe this is a necessary step to fixing the seasons.

Agreed. And don't forget that Bloodraven came to both Bran and Jojen in dreams, so why not Craster? He could have told Craster to sacrifice his sons to the gods via a dream. I also agree that the white walkers were brought back for a specific purpose and we don't know what that purpose is.

[Black Crow]

55 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Other suspicious figures, to me, would be Mance and Howland. Mance because he refuses to let Tormund "shorten Craster by a head," even though they know Craster is helping the Watch, and Mance still isn't totally out of the game as of ADWD. For Howland, I'm being even more speculative, but it is interesting that he spent that winter on the Isle of Faces, and his absence from the current story has always seemed glaring to me.
 

Mance, I'd be dubious of because we have a history of him from when he was a boy and Osha seems pretty sure he's not a wildling born.

I agree that Howland Reed is "suspicious" but in his case his significance appears to lie with the green men and therefore by extension may be aligned to summer rather than winter, On the other hand in looking at his possible role we also have to look at his involvement through Meera and Jojen in getting Bran north of the Wall to meet the three-eyed crow, but that may be something for the morrow, tonight I'm for bed.

 

Good night all.

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

...consequent possibility that some of the wild hunt may be very old indeed.

I don't disagree with this. I used to float a theory here that the Night's King and his companions - all of whom I interpret as having undergone the white walker transformation - were not executed/destroyed by Brandon the Breaker and Joramun, but bound in iron and buried 'alive' near the Frostfangs as a particularly cruel form of punishment, and have only recently been unearthed.

Leaving aside that particular theory, I think it's not unreasonable to assume that a white walker might not be capable of dying of natural causes, and that some of the oldest among them may have been sealed, rendered impotent, or even gone into willing exile in the far north ("beneath the curtain of light at the end of the world") depending on whether or not the LN was ended with some sort of treaty.

The specific idea that doesn't quite ring true to me is that they've been continuously produced by a series of Crasters, or that they could even be found in human territory until very recently.

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

And don't forget that Bloodraven came to both Bran and Jojen in dreams, so why not Craster? He could have told Craster to sacrifice his sons to the gods via a dream.

True, and I think we could even use Marwyn's description of a glass candle's potential as a comparison point. Craster doesn't come off as a particularly brilliant man, so if he were receiving nightly visions that he believes are sent by the gods, it might not have been all that difficult to convince him that it's his godly duty to give up his sons. There may also be something special in his lineage--the skinchanging gene, Whitetree blood, or some significance to his Crow father.

Not to go totally off topic, but I think that Dany may have been similarly manipulated by dreams and visions in aGoT, especially in the chapter directly preceding the one with Drogo's pyre, a chapter where she has a series of visions. There's an odd turn of phrase used there, about Dany listening to "the whispering of stars," a phrase that's repeated again in ADWD when Dany is having visions (being sent visions?) of Quaithe. Granted, that's all in keeping with idea of the Targs having dragon dreams, but her sudden inspiration for Drogo's pyre, and her certainty that she won't die in the pyre is interesting.

 

[Phillip Frye]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

True, and I think we could even use Marwyn's description of a glass candle's potential as a comparison point. Craster doesn't come off as a particularly brilliant man, so if he were receiving nightly visions that he believes are sent by the gods, it might not have been all that difficult to convince him that it's his godly duty to give up his sons. There may also be something special in his lineage--the skinchanging gene, Whitetree blood, or some significance to his Crow father.

I don't think that Craster needed to actually receive visions from greenseers or glass candles to get right with the Cold Gods.  The Things that Go Bump in the Night came up to the keep and knocked on the door . . .

[Phillip Frye]

Also, I would add that the fact that Craster had been giving his sons, sheep, etc. for some time to the Cold Gods supplies sufficient proof that the White Walkers had been a presence in the Haunted Forest for some time.  In addition, the rangers with Waymer Royce seemed to have some idea about how to keep the cold shadows at bay, indicating a level of experience with them from within the Night's Watch.

[LynnS]

56 minutes ago, Phillip Frye said:

Also, I would add that the fact that Craster had been giving his sons, sheep, etc. for some time to the Cold Gods supplies sufficient proof that the White Walkers had been a presence in the Haunted Forest for some time.  In addition, the rangers with Waymer Royce seemed to have some idea about how to keep the cold shadows at bay, indicating a level of experience with them from within the Night's Watch.

Yes, that's weird isn't it?  Sheep, then dogs and whatever livestock is at hand.  Why would the WW take livestock in lieu of an infant boy?  Unless it's some kind of tithe, a portion of your crops and livestock to supply whom?  I don't imagine that the WW have a taste for mutton chops.  

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Phillip Frye said:

Also, I would add that the fact that Craster had been giving his sons, sheep, etc. for some time to the Cold Gods supplies sufficient proof that the White Walkers had been a presence in the Haunted Forest for some time.  In addition, the rangers with Waymer Royce seemed to have some idea about how to keep the cold shadows at bay, indicating a level of experience with them from within the Night's Watch.

How so? What did Gared and Will say or do that indicated they knew how to keep white walkers away?

Bloodraven on the other hand had 30+ years to work on convincing Craster to sacrifice his sons before Waymar went looking for Benjen.

[Phillip Frye]

23 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

How so? What did Gared and Will say or do that indicated they knew how to keep white walkers away?

From memory, it is either heavily implied or outright stated that starting a fire is one method for keeping things in The Haunted Forest away that go bump in the night.  The rangers suggest it and seem to be alarmed about it being high time to get the blaze going given that the sun is going down and the unnatural cold is starting up.  Then, the lordling overrules them.  After that, main event of the chapter commences.

The tone of the prologue makes it clear that the seasoned rangers have some idea what is going on about them, but due to their distrust of the green lordling, they don't state their concerns openly.  Failure to convey important information happens to be a Martin plot specialty.

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, Phillip Frye said:

From memory, it is either heavily implied or outright stated that starting a fire is one method for keeping things in The Haunted Forest away that go bump in the night.  The rangers suggest it and seem to be alarmed about it being high time to get the blaze going given that the sun is going down and the unnatural cold is starting up.  Then, the lordling overrules them.  After that, main event of the chapter commences.

The tone of the prologue makes it clear that the seasoned rangers have some idea what is going on about them, but due to their distrust of the green lordling, they don't state their concerns openly.  Failure to convey important information happens to be a Martin plot specialty.

And yet Coldhands will not light a fire because it will attract foes that leave no marks in the snow. He's not so much concerned about wights as he is about White Walkers.

Quote

Bran closed his eyes. It was too cold to talk, and they dare not light a fire. Coldhands had warned them against that. These woods are not as empty as you think, he had said. You cannot know what the light might summon from the darkness. The memory made him shiver, despite the warmth of Hodor beside him.

The ranger killed a pig. Coldhands stood beside the door, a raven on his arm, both staring at the fire. Reflections from the flames glittered off four black eyes. He does not eat, Bran remembered, and he fears the flames.

"You said no fire," he reminded the ranger.

"The walls around us hide the light, and dawn is close. We will be on our way soon."

 

"The white walkers go lightly on the snow," the ranger said. "You'll find no prints to mark their passage." A raven descended from above to settle on his shoulder. Only a dozen of the big black birds remained with them. The rest had vanished along the way; every dawn when they arose, there had been fewer of them. "Come," the bird squawked. "Come, come."

 

 

 

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Phillip Frye said:

From memory, it is either heavily implied or outright stated that starting a fire is one method for keeping things in The Haunted Forest away that go bump in the night.  The rangers suggest it and seem to be alarmed about it being high time to get the blaze going given that the sun is going down and the unnatural cold is starting up.  Then, the lordling overrules them.  After that, main event of the chapter commences.

Perhaps this represents personal familiarity with the Others, but feeling discomforted in the Haunted Forest and starting a fire as the sun goes down are things that could just as easily be read as ingrained cultural superstition.

In addition, do we know that a fire actually does much of anything to keep the white walkers at bay? The white walker that Sam encounters certainly didn't seem too put off by the torch that Grenn was carrying.

If the Watch actually had familiarity with the Others beyond 8,000 year old oral legends, then you would think that having rangers carry whatever obsidian the realm can make available would be standard Watch protocol in the Haunted Forest.

Edit, random additional musing: While fortifying the Fist of the First Men in aCoK, no preparations are made to ward against the Others, and nobody even raises the possibility that such preparations might be necessary, even after Mormont has been attacked by a blue eyed dead men. The Watch does not seem to understand their enemy.

[LynnS]

I have a feeling that Crastor's sons are not actually sacrificed to the weirwoods in the sense that they are bled out to the trees.  I think they are wed to the trees instead.  The Weirwood at Whitetree is different with it's jagged mouth big enough to swallow a sheep with all it's burnt offerings.  Perhaps this is where Crastor's missing livestock end up to feed a squalling, hungry infant.  White Tree or Wight Tree?

I've had the impression that the six white walkers that Waymar encounters are receiving instruction when they stand by and watch the duel as if they are boys with their master at arms.

The tree is old and powerful as befits say the lifeforce of children and infants.  The age and size of the monstrous tree would suggest that Craster's son's and his predecessors son's have been occupying that particular tree for a long time. Which might explain why Gilly's son is called Monster.

This particular tree could have more than one 'son' attached to it's roots.

And I wonder if the Black Gate is managed by the oldest son of the lot and requires replacement from time to time and it's this one the stops the others from passing the Wall.