Heresy 192 The Wheel of Time

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

First a shout out to @Feather Crystal as this really isn't on the lines of the wheel of time....but in thinking about it, all post/arguments/debates/etc. in heresy will reappear at some later point and have occurred at some past point.  So I guess maybe it is.

[Black Crow]

OK... and as Matthew and I aren't going to agree and as this thread was supposed to be about Feather's Wheel of Time theory, may I suggest we start to wind it up. We've got just over two pages to go. We've had an excellent OP essay and we've had arguments for and against, so closing arguments and summaries would seem an appropriate way of filling them. Even if you haven't a lot to add, it would be interesting to hear your views.

[Melifeather]

9 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

First a shout out to @Feather Crystal as this really isn't on the lines of the wheel of time....but in thinking about it, all post/arguments/debates/etc. in heresy will reappear at some later point and have occurred at some past point.  So I guess maybe it is.

I sort of like the way Matthew has setup dispute between he and BC.  It's a good question with opposing viewpoints; with a little bit of polishing there might be two good points of reference in which to start a debate.  However, after posting this I see that BC has already set the stage for "Winterfell" so perhaps this may just have to wait for another day.  I do like how the two views can be potentially aligned towards each other.

On a separate note to Feather....since the whole world that Martin has created seems to have more questions than answers the further we travel down the rabbit hole....there are two variables that IMHO might be keys to unlocking the great mysteries.  Time and magic  At one point I believed that there was a field of magic that surrounded Planetos and when the comet came through (once again) the field was disrupted and magic was redistributed.  I wonder if the same isn't true with your time wheel.  

I think it has been a great topic for the bi-centennial discussions.

Heresy proves there's a wheel just by it's very existence! Love it!

We have gone down the rabbit hole just like Alice into a looking glass inverted world of black and white, ice and fire.

[Melifeather]

We are introduced to the House of Black and White in book four, A Feast for Crows, when Arya arrives in Braavos. There she meets the Kindly Old Man who teaches her about the Many-Faced God, and the order of the Faceless Men. The temple sits upon a rocky knoll of grey stone. It has no windows, a black tile roof, and a striking door that is half weirwood white and half ebony black. In the center of the doors is a carved moon face ebony on weirwood, weirwood on ebony. Its grey stone steps lead down to the dock. As readers we may not have noticed until now that a pattern was emerging. We’d already met the white walkers with their icy swords and Daenerys with her fiery dragons, but if a motif of inversions hadn’t registered before, the House of Black and White was now in our faces.

Weasel Pie pointed out to me that the titled chapters sound like the titles of fairy tales, to which Pretty Pig agreed and added “Grimm’s fairy tales”. I’ll insert: “GRRM’s” fairy tales.

The Children manipulate Westeros as if it’s a giant game of Cyvasse. It’s as if with each turning they reset the pieces. Each cycle brought a different invader: First Men, Andals, Rhoynar, Targaryen. The warding on the Wall is the shield in the game, it’s put up while the pieces are being arranged and then removed when play begins. Something has happened to reverse the cycle and the order of invaders is being reversed, Targaryen, Rhoynar, Andal, First Men, in rapid succession.

Each new cycle is heralded by the red comet, and then the same sequence of events plays out. The Targaryens appeared to have some inkling of this knowledge. We learn of conversations between Aemon and Rhaegar about identifying the players. Rhaegar read as a child something that made him believe he was to be a warrior, so he took up training with the sword. He was intent about identifying the prince that was promised. A blood magic ritual resets the cycle causing a cataclysmic event before the rebirth. The rebirth includes a “prince” or a “dragon”, at least in the Targaryen translation.

I believe The Iron Captain AFFC chapter 18 is a key chapter to recognizing the inversions are there. The Iron Captain. The Iron Throne. The pursuit of dragons. We are meant to draw parallels between the Greyjoys and the Targaryens, but why? The Greyjoy family are all parallel inversions to Targaryen family members. Euron vs Bloodraven. Victarion is both Aerys and Bittersteel. Damphair vs Aemon. Asha vs Rhaella. Theon vs Rhaegar, and Rodrik Harlaw “the Reader” vs Rhaegar. Asha’s smooth cheeked lover, Qarl the Maid, may even be the inversion to Jeor Mormont, but that’s a theory of mine yet to come!

The discussion of the white walkers is just one tangent of an over all discussion of the wheel, but they are also evidence of the reversal of the wheel since they are “come again”. Bloodraven is a prime suspect for doing “something”, or maybe it was Euron’s doing? Damphair has a memory of a squeaky iron hinge opening in relation to his brother. There weren’t white walkers and dragons prior to Bloodraven taking up the position of greenseer. All the major changes of the cycle of history come after he took up the weirwood throne. There isn’t just one thing that has led to the reversal. It has taken a series of events that led to Dany’s funeral pyre all the way to the removal of Starks from Winterfell, and it was all heralded by the red comet.

Edited to add: The Greyjoys are like a black fire (or is it fyre?) version of the Targaryens, the dragons gone wild/bad version. And maybe the white walkers are a force for good this time?

[Matthew.]

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As I keep saying, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one since neither of us is going to be swayed by the other. As a final, parting shot, however...

You might find that expressing the sentiment "we'll have to agree to disagree," and then perpetually following it with another paragraph of argument tends to come off as insincere. As you might guess, I'm not convinced by your theory that the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, a man who was himself raised in an ancient Northern house, is unfamiliar with the meaning of "white walker."

[Matthew.]

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Bloodraven is a prime suspect for doing “something”, or maybe it was Euron’s doing? Damphair has a memory of a squeaky iron hinge opening in relation to his brother. There weren’t white walkers and dragons prior to Bloodraven taking up the position of greenseer. All the major changes of the cycle of history come after he took up the weirwood throne. There isn’t just one thing that has led to the reversal. It has taken a series of events that led to Dany’s funeral pyre all the way to the removal of Starks from Winterfell, and it was all heralded by the red comet.

I agree that it seems glaring that so many momentous magical events seem to be unfolding in the time frame since Bloodraven was enthroned. To be repetitive, if he wasn't outright involved in what's (theoretically) happening at Craster's keep, he certainly doesn't seem to have done anything to stop it.

That said, if I'm not mistaken, hasn't the Aeron chapter that GRRM read within the last year essentially confirmed the meaning of the iron hinge memory? I don't know if it's considered appropriate to discuss those chapters here, so I won't be more specific. Granted, there could be a double meaning to the memory.

Edit: As an additional thought, I seem to recall quite a bit of foreshadowing that suggests "something" significant with Euron and Dany. She has at least one unsettling dream/vision involving blue lips, and Moqorro speaks of dragons both light and dark, false and true, and Euron's (by inference) shadow looming large.

This might possibly suggest not just important future actions, but that perhaps Euron did something significant in the past. If nothing else, his boast of having visited Valyria might not be entirely empty.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

I agree that it seems glaring that so many momentous magical events seem to be unfolding in the time frame since Bloodraven was enthroned. To be repetitive, if he wasn't outright involved in what's (theoretically) happening at Craster's keep, he certainly doesn't seem to have done anything to stop it.

That said, if I'm not mistaken, hasn't the Aeron chapter that GRRM read within the last year essentially confirmed the meaning of the iron hinge memory? I don't know if it's considered appropriate to discuss those chapters here, so I won't be more specific. Granted, there could be a double meaning to the memory.

Edit: As an additional thought, I seem to recall quite a bit of foreshadowing that suggests "something" significant with Euron and Dany. She has at least one unsettling dream/vision involving blue lips, and Moqorro speaks of dragons both light and dark, false and true, and Euron's (by inference) shadow looming large.

This might possibly suggest not just important future actions, but that perhaps Euron did something significant in the past. If nothing else, his boast of having visited Valyria might not be entirely empty.

 

Regarding the Forsaken chapter:

 

Euron's men laughed at Damphair, because Euron told them that he "took" Aeron and Urri "from behind", heavily implying he raped them as children. The raping of children does have a symbolic double meaning in that the Children were also victims of the various invaders of Westeros. 

An alternate meaning could be that Euron skinchanged into their bodies like what Bran does with Hodor. Euron's men may have misinterpreted what "taking them from behind" really means. Both interpretations would explain Damphair's bad memories that he doesn't want to think about.

The verbage "squeaky iron hinge" also conveys a double meaning, at least to me. It could mean an old ward was removed from the Wall. The Wall is referred to as a hinge. "Squeaky" equates something old, and "iron" is what wards are made of.

Regarding the "whispering" Dany hears...I'm not sure who has been coming to Dany in her dreams, but somebody told her how to put that funeral pyre together in order to hatch dragons.

[Frey family reunion]

22 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I can't help but wonder if Bloodraven is using the white walkers and wights for his own political purposes? He was a Targaryen loyalist and protected the realm from at least three Blackfyre Pretenders. He was Hand of the King for both Aerys I and Maekar I. Aegon V arrested him for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre, but offered the option of taking the black which he accepted, and he later rose to their Lord Commander. Brynden said everything he has done was done for the good of the realm, but which realm was he talking about? Are we supposed to believe that he's now allied with the Children? He left the Wall to go in search of them, so one has to wonder what purpose he had in mind.

 

21 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm still very much inclined to see him as a Blackwood of Raventree Hall rather than a Targaryen. 

 

I agree with BC on this one.  My guess is the Blackwoods are very much in alliance with the weirwoods.

On a related note, has anyone in the heresy thread ever talked about the Russian tale of Illya Muromets and the Nightingale robber and how that might have been an influence on the Bran-Bloodraven story?  I just learned about this tale a couple of weeks ago, and some of the parallels seemed pretty interesting.  (Also I highly recommend for anyone who enjoys podcasts and mythology to check out one called Myths and Legends, which is a pretty entertaining retelling of a lot of myth and folklore).

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Regarding the Forsaken chapter:

If we're discussing the idea of Euron (or someone else) theoretically messing with the Wall's function as a hinge - opening it, or removing a ward, or whatever - then were you envisioning that the Nightfort would be at the root of whatever was done? In particular, the Black Gate, which fits quite well with all of the door/hinge imagery.

And, since you brought up Dany's funeral pyre, I'll repost the quotes that might point to Quaithe:

AGOT, Dany IX (just before the chapter with Drogo's pyre):
 

Quote

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

 

 

ADWD, Dany X:
 

Quote

She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

In the first case, it could be nothing more than the fact that it was a turn of phrase that GRRM found poetic, but it is interesting that it precedes Dany having the sudden intuition of the pyre, and that similar language is used later in relation to Quaithe sending visions.
 

[Melifeather]

33 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

If we're discussing the idea of Euron (or someone else) theoretically messing with the Wall's function as a hinge - opening it, or removing a ward, or whatever - then were you envisioning that the Nightfort would be at the root of whatever was done? In particular, the Black Gate, which fits quite well with all of the door/hinge imagery.

And, since you brought up Dany's funeral pyre, I'll repost the quotes that might point to Quaithe:

AGOT, Dany IX (just before the chapter with Drogo's pyre):
 

ADWD, Dany X:
 

In the first case, it could be nothing more than the fact that it was a turn of phrase that GRRM found poetic, but it is interesting that it precedes Dany having the sudden intuition of the pyre, and that similar language is used later in relation to Quaithe sending visions.
 

I was thinking the ward was removed at Winterfell and that is why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Euron wouldn't have had anything to do with removing the Starks, but I have wondered if Bloodraven is responsible by setting things in motion. I haven't looked for any evidence that the Black Gate has been tampered with, but it would be worth exploring.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

You might find that expressing the sentiment "we'll have to agree to disagree," and then perpetually following it with another paragraph of argument tends to come off as insincere. As you might guess, I'm not convinced by your theory that the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, a man who was himself raised in an ancient Northern house, is unfamiliar with the meaning of "white walker."

Insincere...moi? 

I'm not arguing that Mormont is unfamiliar with the term at all. Rather it is we readers who are gradually being introduced by GRRM to these mysterious white shadows in the woods who eventually turn out to be the Others of legend.

[Black Crow]

As to Bloodraven:

According to the Wiki he disappeared on a ranging in 252

Mance Rayder is described as being in middle years with hair turning grey - born c.252?

 

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I'm not arguing that Mormont is unfamiliar with the term at all. Rather it is we readers who are gradually being introduced by GRRM to these mysterious white shadows in the woods who eventually turn out to be the Others of legend.

The only thing gradually revealed is the notion that the Others are considered legendary. The reader knows from the prologue onwards that there are Others in the Haunted Forest, and that they're killing rangers and raising the dead. Thus, the 'revelation' is that what we've seen isn't business as usual in Martin's world, and the Others aren't just another dangerous resident of the forest; something legendary has returned to the world, and this is thematically echoed by the return of the dragons in the final chapter.

More to the point, none of that contradicts what I said about the Mormont conversation. Mormont and Tyrion understand that when Mormont talks about fisherfolk sighting white walkers, he's talking about the Others.

We've spoken of context, and subtext, and I think there's a very obvious, logical flow to this conversation:

 

Quote

The end of summer stares us in the face." Mormont reached out and clutched Tyrion tightly by the hand. "You must make them understand. I tell you, my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths and snow bears the size of aurochs, and I have seen darker shapes in my dreams."

"In your dreams," Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.

Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."

...

"These are old bones, Lannister, but they have never felt a chill like this. Tell the king what I say, I pray you. Winter is coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Night's Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the north. The gods help us all if we are not ready."

To reiterate, my interpretation is that Mormont suspects that Long Night 2.0 is coming. As Tyrion's skepticism proves, he doesn't have enough to be absolutely certain, and he definitely doesn't have enough to sound the alarm bells and demand assistance from the realm, but there's a growing, troubling trend that is weighing on him. The report of the fisherfolk is dubious, difficult to confirm, yet just the fact that the report exists at all in the midst of all the other warning signs makes it difficult for Mormont to not be disturbed.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

As to Bloodraven:

According to the Wiki he disappeared on a ranging in 252

Mance Rayder is described as being in middle years with hair turning grey - born c.252?

 

Mance is a suspicious character and our modern day Bael, but would Bloodraven need to utilize a human form? Mance has many parallels that connect him to Rhaegar and there was a time where I theorized that he is Rhaegar.

When Bran skinchanges Hodor it is a type of rape, because it's not consensual. This is why I think we can draw a parallel to whatever it was that Euron did to his brothers. 

Part of the ice magic that the First Men have access to is skinchanging. Is it possible they abused this ability and used it against the Children?

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

The only thing gradually revealed is the notion that the Others are considered legendary. The reader knows from the prologue onwards that there are Others in the Haunted Forest, and that they're killing rangers and raising the dead. Thus, the 'revelation' is that what we've seen isn't business as usual in Martin's world, and the Others aren't just another dangerous resident of the forest; something legendary has returned to the world, and this is thematically echoed by the return of the dragons in the final chapter.

More to the point, none of that contradicts what I said about the Mormont conversation. Mormont and Tyrion understand that when Mormont talks about fisherfolk sighting white walkers, he's talking about the Others.

We've spoken of context, and subtext, and I think there's a very obvious, logical flow to this conversation:

 

To reiterate, my interpretation is that Mormont suspects that Long Night 2.0 is coming. As Tyrion's skepticism proves, he doesn't have enough to be absolutely certain, and he definitely doesn't have enough to sound the alarm bells and demand assistance from the realm, but there's a growing, troubling trend that is weighing on him. The report of the fisherfolk is dubious, difficult to confirm, yet just the fact that the report exists at all in the midst of all the other warning signs makes it difficult for Mormont to not be disturbed.

You suggested the Black Gate as a possible location for tampering, but I think that we can look at Winterfell. The blizzard at the end of Dance seems to be emanating out of Winterfell. LynnS suggested that the Wall draws the cold to itself, in effect it was built by consuming the cold, but what if that process is now reversing? The blizzard then could be the beginnings of a great expulsion of killing cold exiting underground through the tunnels and up through Winterfell where a ward is missing: there is no Stark in Winterfell. If there is an opening there...maybe through the crypts...could we see white walkers at Winterfell?

[Matthew.]

46 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

You suggested the Black Gate as a possible location for tampering, but I think that we can look at Winterfell. The blizzard at the end of Dance seems to be emanating out of Winterfell. LynnS suggested that the Wall draws the cold to itself, in effect it was built by consuming the cold, but what if that process is now reversing? The blizzard then could be the beginnings of a great expulsion of killing cold exiting underground through the tunnels and up through Winterfell where a ward is missing: there is no Stark in Winterfell. If there is an opening there...maybe through the crypts...could we see white walkers at Winterfell?

Sure, I'd put Winterfell up there along with the Wall (and maybe the Isle of Faces) in our list of significant locations, if we're looking for a broken ward.

Although I hadn't considered the idea of white walkers awakening at Winterfell, Lord Eddard has a dream about the Kings of Winter watching him with blue eyes, and Jon has a dream of dead kings stumbling from their graves. Perhaps the Horn of Winter "waking sleeping giants beneath the earth" has multiple meanings, and white walkers in Winterfell will be one of the payoffs to the sounding of the Horn/failure of the Wall.

The primary reason the Black Gate stood out to me is because the Wall itself is a described as a great hinge, and the Black Gate is literally a magical door--it's still barring Coldhands, but perhaps it has been weakened enough to explain phenomena like the Stark's magic reawakening, or maybe even stuff like Beric's resurrection. Magic is "flowing" through the hinge again. I don't know, I don't really have a firm notion here, just some spitballing.

Additional Musing Edit: If Winterfell was indeed warded in some way, and that ward has been broken, then maybe that's the reason the stone kings are awakening in Jon's dreams--they're not literally awake, the dreams partially represent the return of House Stark's sorcery.

[Melifeather]

It would be a mirrored inversion to have white walkers created somehow by resurrecting the life force of the dead versus shadowbabies being made by drawing the life force from the living. It would explain why the white walkers' appearance is as full grown adults. Either Crasters son's are a red herring or their life is needed in order to bring the dead to life. When Melisandre drew life from Stannis he grew weaker indicating the life force sacrificed was his own. 

[Melifeather]

15 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Sure, I'd put Winterfell up there along with the Wall (and maybe the Isle of Faces) in our list of significant locations, if we're looking for a broken ward.

Although I hadn't considered the idea of white walkers awakening at Winterfell, Lord Eddard has a dream about the Kings of Winter watching him with blue eyes, and Jon has a dream of dead kings stumbling from their graves. Perhaps the Horn of Winter "waking sleeping giants beneath the earth" has multiple meanings, and white walkers in Winterfell will be one of the payoffs to the sounding of the Horn/failure of the Wall.

The primary reason the Black Gate stood out to me is because the Wall itself is a described as a great hinge, and the Black Gate is literally a magical door--it's still barring Coldhands, but perhaps it has been weakened enough to explain phenomena like the Stark's magic reawakening, or maybe even stuff like Beric's resurrection. Magic is "flowing" through the hinge again. I don't know, I don't really have a firm notion here, just some spitballing.

Additional Musing Edit: If Winterfell was indeed warded in some way, and that ward has been broken, then maybe that's the reason the stone kings are awakening in Jon's dreams--they're not literally awake, the dreams partially represent the return of House Stark's sorcery.

I do like the idea of resurrecting the dead Starks. Maybe if enough Bolton and Frey blood gets sacrificed to the heart tree? 

[Sly Wren]

57 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Although I hadn't considered the idea of white walkers awakening at Winterfell, Lord Eddard has a dream about the Kings of Winter watching him with blue eyes, and Jon has a dream of dead kings stumbling from their graves. Perhaps the Horn of Winter "waking sleeping giants beneath the earth" has multiple meanings, and white walkers in Winterfell will be one of the payoffs to the sounding of the Horn/failure of the Wall.

Or waking the sleepers/ raising the dead to fight the walkers and wights.

That could also be a possible reading of the "dead kings stumbling from their graves"--Jon makes no note of said kings being blue-eyed, after all.

And I agree--that Horn could have many meanings.

 

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Matthew. said:

To reiterate, my interpretation is that Mormont suspects that Long Night 2.0 is coming. As Tyrion's skepticism proves, he doesn't have enough to be absolutely certain, and he definitely doesn't have enough to sound the alarm bells and demand assistance from the realm, but there's a growing, troubling trend that is weighing on him. The report of the fisherfolk is dubious, difficult to confirm, yet just the fact that the report exists at all in the midst of all the other warning signs makes it difficult for Mormont to not be disturbed.

What's disturbing Mormont about the walkers is not that they have suddenly reappeared after thousands of years, but that they are as close as Eastwatch. Moreover, while the Others are supposedly the enemy, that low-key report is the only one concerning them. As you acknowledge he's getting his knickers in a twist about a whole host of warning signs that something bad is coming down the pike, but a solitary sighting of white shadows is just a part of that, not the main event.