Heresy 192 The Wheel of Time

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, Phillip Frye said:

Also, I would add that the fact that Craster had been giving his sons, sheep, etc. for some time to the Cold Gods supplies sufficient proof that the White Walkers had been a presence in the Haunted Forest for some time.  In addition, the rangers with Waymer Royce seemed to have some idea about how to keep the cold shadows at bay, indicating a level of experience with them from within the Night's Watch.

Gared dismounted. "We need a fire. I'll see to it"

"How big a fool are you, old man? If there are enemies in this wood a fire is the last thing we want."

"There's some enemies a fire will keep away." Gared said. "Bears and direwolves and... other things..."

Given that "other things" ambush them just over a page later there can be no doubt here what we the readers are to suppose he's talking about

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, that's weird isn't it?  Sheep, then dogs and whatever livestock is at hand.  Why would the WW take livestock in lieu of an infant boy?  Unless it's some kind of tithe, a portion of your crops and livestock to supply whom?  I don't imagine that the WW have a taste for mutton chops.  

Its akin to a tithe, or rather tribute. The fact that the lads turn up looking for boys when Craster has none to give demonstrates that its neither a collect on demand service or Craster's "explanation" for his sons' disappearance. In giving up the mutton which he has a taste for Craster is making a sacrifice by way of pleding his continued allegiance.

[Black Crow]

14 hours ago, Matthew. said:

 There may also be something special in his lineage--the skinchanging gene, Whitetree blood, or some significance to his Crow father.
 

Just as an aside, I'm inclined to wonder about Whitetree. As described in Clash of Kings it comprises just four longhouses grouped around a weirwood. There's no mention of any other buildings - barns and the like - which may simply be down to GRRM not mentioning, but what he does  describe is all four longhouses lying under the weirwood branches. Sounds a bit like a religious community. 

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its akin to a tithe, or rather tribute. The fact that the lads turn up looking for boys when Craster has none to give demonstrates that its neither a collect on demand service or Craster's "explanation" for his sons' disappearance. In giving up the mutton which he has a taste for Craster is making a sacrifice by way of pleding his continued allegiance.

As an amusing aside, in the legend of St. George and the dragon, the King of Selene appeased the neighborhood dragon by agreeing to feed him two muttons a day.  It's only when they run out of sheep do they start sacrificing the town's children to keep the dragon appeased.  Here we have the inverse, Craster appeases the White Walkers with his sons, and it's only when he runs out of sons that he turns to sheep.

[Black Crow]

33 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

As an amusing aside, in the legend of St. George and the dragon, the King of Selene appeased the neighborhood dragon by agreeing to feed him two muttons a day.  It's only when they run out of sheep do they start sacrificing the town's children to keep the dragon appeased.  Here we have the inverse, Craster appeases the White Walkers with his sons, and it's only when he runs out of sons that he turns to sheep.

Wouldn't surprise me if its GRRM's little joke, but it does emphasise that the blue-eyed lot aint a figment of Craster's imagination to explain away his sons.

[Frey family reunion]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Just as an aside, I'm inclined to wonder about Whitetree. As described in Clash of Kings it comprises just four longhouses grouped around a weirwood. There's no mention of any other buildings - barns and the like - which may simply be down to GRRM not mentioning, but what he does  describe is all four longhouses lying under the weirwood branches. Sounds a bit like a religious community. 

It fits as a place where they conducted ritual sacrifice to the Weirwood.  The fact that they find two skulls in the maw of the tree, is interesting as well.  It brings me back to Dany's dragon hatching ritual at the funeral pyre.  We had two sacrifices there, the body of Drogo, and the living sacrifice of the maegi.  In the Weirwood's maw the rangers find two human skulls, one larger than the other.  I wonder if perhaps in a similar manner we had two simultaneous sacrifices int he Weirwood, a living sacrifice (perhaps a child) along with the body of a recently deceased Wildling.

The parallels with the child sacrifice in Carthage continue for me as well with Whitetree.  The god/titan that the children were sacrificed to in Carthage was Chronus or Kronos, who in Greek mythology was the god/titan of time.  

And if there is a corresponding god of time in our series, it has to be the Weirwoods which Bran uses to travel back in time.

[Matthew.]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Given that "other things" ambush them just over a page later there can be no doubt here what we the readers are to suppose he's talking about

Of course, but is he describing a practical concern, or hinting at a superstitious fear that he's not entirely comfortable speaking aloud?

Use Jon's thoughts as a point of comparison:

 

Quote

Ser Jaremy stood. "The Wildlings have axes too."

Mormont rounded on him. "So you believe this is Mance Rayder's work? This close to the Wall?"

"Who else, my lord?"

Jon could have told him. He knew, they all knew, yet no man of them would say the words. The Others are only a story, a tale to make children shiver. If they ever lived at all, they are gone eight thousand years. Even the thought made him feel foolish; he was a man grown now, a black brother of the Night's Watch, not the boy who'd once sat at Old Nan's feet with Bran and Robb and Arya.

This gets to the heart of their complicated feelings. They all know what else they might theoretically fear north of the Wall--of course they do, the Wall and the Watch ostensibly exist to guard the realms of men from the Others.  Nonetheless, the Others are so far removed from the present era that there's always a fear that you'll be seen as foolish for actually suggesting aloud that they exist, that they're causing trouble. That's the stuff of fairy tales.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It fits as a place where they conducted ritual sacrifice to the Weirwood.  The fact that they find two skulls in the maw of the tree, is interesting as well.  It brings me back to Dany's dragon hatching ritual at the funeral pyre.  We had two sacrifices there, the body of Drogo, and the living sacrifice of the maegi.  In the Weirwood's maw the rangers find two human skulls, one larger than the other.  I wonder if perhaps in a similar manner we had two simultaneous sacrifices int he Weirwood, a living sacrifice (perhaps a child) along with the body of a recently deceased Wildling.

The parallels with the child sacrifice in Carthage continue for me as well with Whitetree.  The god/titan that the children were sacrificed to in Carthage was Chronus or Kronos, who in Greek mythology was the god/titan of time.  

And if there is a corresponding god of time in our series, it has to be the Weirwoods which Bran uses to travel back in time.

I don't know if I'm necessarily ready to go quite that far in, but although I've missed it in the past I do think we're intended to see Whitetree as something more than a village with a weirwood growing in the middle; the two are far too intimate and the specific referencing of Craster's mother coming from Whitetree may therefore be significant especially given the connection between weirwoods/children and the walkers.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Of course, but is he describing a practical concern, or hinting at a superstitious fear that he's not entirely comfortable speaking aloud?

Use Jon's thoughts as a point of comparison:

This gets to the heart of their complicated feelings. They all know what else they might theoretically fear north of the Wall--of course they do, the Wall and the Watch ostensibly exist to guard the realms of men from the Others.  Nonetheless, the Others are so far removed from the present era that there's always a fear that you'll be seen as foolish for actually suggesting aloud that they exist, that they're causing trouble. That's the stuff of fairy tales.

But that's the point and therein lies the difference between the higher paid help and the rangers on the ground. The latter, as Gared demonstrates, know there's something unchancy out there but without the bear's skin they also know that nobody's going to believe them.

[Phillip Frye]

21 hours ago, LynnS said:

And yet Coldhands will not light a fire because it will attract foes that leave no marks in the snow. He's not so much concerned about wights as he is about White Walkers

Ulterior motive.  Coldhands has all of the attributes of a wight, except consciousness and a lack of blue eyes.  He probably doesn't want to get near any fires.  Also, the statement is correct, which makes Gared's recommendation to the lordling all the more counterintuitive.

[Matthew.]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

But that's the point and therein lies the difference between the higher paid help and the rangers on the ground. The latter, as Gared demonstrates, know there's something unchancy out there but without the bear's skin they also know that nobody's going to believe them.

If they truly know something is out there, why wasn't it a topic of discussion in the aftermath of Othor's attack on Mormont, when the brotherhood might be more inclined to believe extraordinary tales? Again, why no planning for the potential of the Others at the Fist? Chett's reaction when he hears that third horn blast says it all--running afoul of the Others was never treated as a real possibility.

I'd also add that ASOS' prologue is a prime example of why "the Others haven't been seen in 8,000 years" as a part of the setting enhances the storytelling: the sounding of a horn is elevated to something deeply unsettling, a "holy shit" moment. The Watch's ignorance isn't just a plot conceit, it's an important part of giving scenes featuring the Others a sense of wonder and terror.

The fundamental problem with this theory remains the same--no single, definitive line of text can be cited to actually demonstrate the ideas proposed (eg, "the Watch didn't view the WWs as dangerous as long as they weren't raising the dead"), while plenty of text, character behavior, and five books worth of storytelling context can be cited to support a reading that the WWs truly hadn't been seen for 8,000 years, and that the Watch actually is tremendously ignorant of their legendary enemy.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

If they truly know something is out there, why wasn't it a topic of discussion in the aftermath of Othor's attack on Mormont, when the brotherhood might be more inclined to believe extraordinary tales? Again, why no planning for the potential of the Others at the Fist? Chett's reaction when he hears that third horn blast says it all--running afoul of the Others was never treated as a real possibility.

Chett wasn't a ranger and may never have been north of the Wall before.

As to Othor and Jafer, the reaction of the rangers on realising they had blue eyes was very direct:

"Burn them..."

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Phillip Frye said:

Ulterior motive.  Coldhands has all of the attributes of a wight, except consciousness and a lack of blue eyes.  He probably doesn't want to get near any fires.  Also, the statement is correct, which makes Gared's recommendation to the lordling all the more counterintuitive.

While hesitating to speak ill of the dead, Coldhands' role in this, like Conrad's Russian, can be interpreted as equivocal.

We might also ask, when Leaf says that they killed him "long ago"; just how long ago was that?

[LynnS]

On 2016-12-17 at 5:36 AM, Black Crow said:

Its akin to a tithe, or rather tribute. The fact that the lads turn up looking for boys when Craster has none to give demonstrates that its neither a collect on demand service or Craster's "explanation" for his sons' disappearance. In giving up the mutton which he has a taste for Craster is making a sacrifice by way of pleding his continued allegiance.

I'm still not on board with the literal interpretation of sacrifice meaning the killing of infants. To me, Craster plays out the Night King's story of giving his seed to the corpse queen and in a sense sacrifices his children although we don't know exactly what becomes of them.   The Stark kids are sacrificed to the old gods in a sense; used for another purpose.  So far, we have only seen one sacrifice in Bran's vision of the past and that was an adult.  It's assumed that  sacrifices were made when Jon sees the ash, the oak and the chestnut with carved faces.  None has the face of a child.  

I go back to the old discussion about Craster' sons becoming Janissaries for the CotF or the old gods and that still rings true to me. I'm not convinced that the small skulls in the Whitree's maw were sacrificed or if they died of other causes and were made burnt offerings after the fact.

It's still  a mystery to me why Luwin dragged himself to sit beneath the Weirwood while he was bleeding to death.   Or what will become of Jojen since he seems to know the hour of his death and whether or not that will have something to do with an actual death and the raising of a green man. 

 

[JNR]

8 hours ago, Matthew. said:

The fundamental problem with this theory remains the same--no single, definitive line of text can be cited to actually demonstrate the ideas proposed (eg, "the Watch didn't view the WWs as dangerous as long as they weren't raising the dead"), while plenty of text, character behavior, and five books worth of storytelling context can be cited to support a reading that the WWs truly hadn't been seen for 8,000 years, and that the Watch actually is tremendously ignorant of their legendary enemy.

It's also kinda funny to me, thinking back on all the times Heresy has argued that the Starks have a special relationship with the Watch. 

That the Starks, in fact, historically have commanded the Watch.  The specific instances of the Stark in Winterfell doing so, such as in the story of Bael, or when Artos Stark commanded the Watch to clean up the dead after the Battle of Long Lake. 

Yet despite this argument, so often made by the lead Heretic, he doesn't seem to take it seriously when Ned Stark, the Stark in Winterfell, who apparently commands the Watch, tells us:

Quote

The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one.

It seems the Watch... just forgot to bring the Stark in Winterfell up to speed on the fact that they knew the Others had, in fact, been hanging around the Haunted Forest... doing nothing of consequence... for eight thousand years.  Quite a curious failure on their part.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm still not on board with the literal interpretation of sacrifice meaning the killing of infants. To me, Craster plays out the Night King's story of giving his seed to the corpse queen and in a sense sacrifices his children although we don't know exactly what becomes of them.   The Stark kids are sacrificed to the old gods in a sense; used for another purpose.  So far, we have only seen one sacrifice in Bran's vision of the past and that was an adult.  It's assumed that  sacrifices were made when Jon sees the ash, the oak and the chestnut with carved faces.  None has the face of a child.  

I go back to the old discussion about Craster' sons becoming Janissaries for the CotF or the old gods and that still rings true to me. I'm not convinced that the small skulls in the Whitree's maw were sacrificed or if they died of other causes and were made burnt offerings after the fact.

Neither am I. Its sufficient that Craster gives his sons as a sacrifice, without requiring him to actually cut their throats.

The Whitetree business is ambiguous as well because while the layout suggests a religious community centred around the weirwood, the very fact of the bodies being burned seems to go against a Craster style sacrifice - unless it turns out that drawing the soul from a living sacrifice is necessary for a changeling, while those who are killed or dead of natural causes first are only good for wights. Perhaps, if we turn to the Varamyr prologue; we know a warg can escape a dying body before the lights go out, but is then trapped in the new host. The same may be true here. The life may be drawn from the body while it still breathes, but once its dead the soul is trapped within the bones.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

Quite a curious failure on their part...

Ned Stark may have known or professed to know squat, but Benjen Stark knew of what was happening at Craster's at the very least.

[Matthew.]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

It seems the Watch... just forgot to bring the Stark in Winterfell up to speed on the fact that they knew the Others had, in fact, been hanging around the Haunted Forest... doing nothing of consequence... for eight thousand years.  Quite a curious failure on their part.

Agreed. Not only do the Starks, as you point out, have a historical link to the Watch, but we know that Eddard has hosted men of the NW on several occasions. More significantly, Lord Stark's own brother is the First Ranger, a man who ranges beyond the Wall, and would be in the loop if any of his men had seen something noteworthy.

From that, we can conclude one of two things--either Benjen (and the other rangers that Ned has hosted) has no idea that there might actually be Others lurking in the Haunted Forest, or he's withholding information from his brother. Now, the latter could be an interesting premise, but it's impossible to demonstrate with the text. For now, anyway.

Some people might quibble about that Ned quote and point out that he also says the CotF are long dead, even though we later learn that they aren't, but it's important to remember that the concept being argued here is not whether or not Eddard has objective, omniscient knowledge of whether the CotF or the Others exist, it's the fact that if the NW were actually encountering the CotF or the Others, these would be noteworthy events, tales that would certainly make their way throughout the Watch, and to the Lord of Winterfell.

[Matthew.]

11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Chett wasn't a ranger and may never have been north of the Wall before.

I'm aware, but he gives us insight into the camp at the Fist. Regardless of what he's done before, he's up there now, after Mormont has been attacked by a wight, yet there are no preparations centered around an assumption that the Others might attack--it's all about what they'll do if Mance shows up. Nobody, within this organization that was founded to fight the Others, and which supposedly knows the Others are out there, is actually behaving as though they believe that the Others are out there... because mostly, they don't believe that.

[Black Crow]

48 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I'm aware, but he gives us insight into the camp at the Fist. Regardless of what he's done before, he's up there now, after Mormont has been attacked by a wight, yet there are no preparations centered around an assumption that the Others might attack--it's all about what they'll do if Mance shows up. Nobody, within this organization that was founded to fight the Others, and which supposedly knows the Others are out there, is actually behaving as though they believe that the Others are out there... because mostly, they don't believe that.

We're still going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The rangers know what's out there. That is made very clear from a wide variety of references, but they don't see the white shadows in the wood as a threat. Why the hell should 300-dd men fear the occasion white shadow or party of white shadows in the wood. What they fear and what they're prepared to fight are the untold thousands of Mance's horde. Its not until the Fist is actually attacked that the danger posed by the Others is brought home to them - that's the difference between occasionally glimpsed white shadows in the woods and the cold gods in the night and the sheer horror of a whole army of dead men.