Heresy 192 The Wheel of Time

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Winterfell may be a prison

That's an interesting idea and I want to hear more about it.  

Going back to the Mormont women; I came across this passage:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I

"What is he doing here?" she blurted.

"The Usurper wanted his head," Illyrio told them. "Some trifling affront. He sold some poachers to a Tyroshi slaver instead of giving them to the Night's Watch. Absurd law. A man should be able to do as he likes with his own chattel."

Illyrio lies outright to Dany about Jorah placing the blame on 'the usurper'.  Jorah has been placed with the Dothraki for some time by Varys and Illyrio.  Being able to do what you want with your chattel could imply that Jorah had been selling his small folk into slavery for a while.  That would explain Ned Stark's outrage.  Where there's smoke, there's fire.

I'm also guessing that Lyanna's 'willful' nature was more akin to the character of women like Maege and Lyanna Mormont; as well as Wylla Manderly.   Especially in defence of family and small folk.  She may not have been allowed to carry a sword; but it doesn't mean she didn't practice with one.  If Lyanna had a favorite song; it's likely to be Wenda's Song.  Putting her own brand on the ass of thugs or slavers would appeal to her.  I don't think she is likely to have her head in the clouds like Sansa for any reason.   

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

That's an interesting idea and I want to hear more about it.    

Har... wait for Heresy 193 and Winterfell 

[nlspeed]

Regarding Black Crow, I can see that happening, actually. Ice, encompassing both the Old Gods and the Others, versus Fire. Generally, I think that there won't be a clear 'good versus evil' fight. I started out writing random musings related to Euron, regarding the Euron-Greenseer and Euron-Other theories.

Regarding Euron's connection to the Greenseers, I see two interesting possibilities, the latter perhaps moreso than the former. The former would be that both Brynden and Euron have a Thousand Eyes and One:

A 'sixth sense'-eye that loses the ability to see the trees but gains the ability to see the forests; it doesn't function as a normal eye that sees depth and all, but as an eye that allows one to perceive 'everywhen' (perhaps not literally; our eyes allow us to see everything in theory, but not in practice either). 'Everywhen' would be like a thousand eyes looking simultaneously.

And one normal eye, much like ours; an eye that isn't pierced by a Weirwood root, an eye that isn't hidden underneath an eye patch.

The second would be... Well, Euron is the Crow's Eye. Brynden is a crow. Brynden has the thousand eyes - see above - while Euron has the one eye (hence why he keeps the other one hidden - it doesn't matter which one, so long as it is one). Euron is Brynden's agent, so to say.

Of course, moving on, the books speak of a Three-Eyed Raven. What if the third eye needs to be covered up, like in Hindu mythology, lest the world be destroyed? What if the Night King, the Great Other, or what have you, is this third eye? It would combine the Euron-Greenseer theories with the Euron-Other theories. I am not at all familiar with Hindu mythology though - I merely know of Shiva, with the three eyes, and only a tiny little bit more - so I can't expand upon this, and if I had to guess, I do not think Martin has taken any inspiration from Hindu mythology so far, but still.

Another thing to note is his connection to the Faceless (and thus, the Many-Faced God) and his talk of serving ten thousand gods. And Oldtown, which probably hides a dragon egg or somesuch.

It might be that Euron could get stuck between 'good' (Bran) and 'evil' (the Others). I suspect he will come down on the side of the Others, because the descriptions of blue and storm he has going on suit that. Game of Thrones - the show - ends with Jon saying that the real enemy brings the storm, by the by.

Also, I went back to look this up, and yes, Euron's ship is painted red to hide blood, and the Grey King carved his first ship from the pale wood of Ygg, a demon tree which fed on human flesh. Weirwoods have red eyes and a red mouth. Bloody ones. And, as the Reddit thread says where I looked this up, apparently, both Craster and Euron describe themselves as a 'godly man' - but, though Reddit here seems to imply this is the only such occurrence, I wouldn't know. If it is so, that is certainly interesting.

Perhaps a very weird thought, but what if the Old Gods side with the Others - what if the Others are agents of the Old Gods? That'd also combine the two theories, and it might make sense, not? Crastor, who sacrifices his children to the Old Gods, as said in the books. The patterns, that indicate some kind of Other-deity is on (or under, or...) the God's Isle. A Kraken-esque being would fit there well, and makes me think of the entrance to the Mines of Moria from Lord of the Rings, but then far more threatening.

Besides, the Old Gods are the gods of nature. Of forests. Of water, then, too. And of stone (another set of theories, one I have no real opinion of - perhaps Dragonstone hides a dragon? It would be eminently logical, and would explain why Melisandre came to Dragonstone, and not to anywhere else). But not of fire; fire is, for example, that which was stolen and brought to humans, fire is the first 'invention' of humans, and so forth.

Perhaps the Old Gods hold dominion over water (including ice - and really, why is the Wall, meant to keep ice out, built of ice?), forest, and stone, and are only missing fire? Or fire and shadow... And if we separate water and ice, that gives us six elements. We can include air, for the Storm God, and then we have seven. The Seven Gods? This is probably way to far-fetched.

Then there are shadows. They seem to be tied together with fire. Dragonbinders and Shadowbinders. Asshai, perhaps the thing most associated with shadows, but also where Melisandre comes from. Shadow babies. Characters casting shadows - is it the case that pro-fire characters (such as Tyrion) cast large shadows, while anti-fire characters (such as Euron) cast terrifying shadows?

Coming back to the Seven, can we align them with elements?

Father - air, like most 'top gods', such as Zeus, and also; 'Father Above'
Mother - air, for 'Mother Above', or water, perhaps, for fertility and nurturing, or even baptism
Warrior - fire, which is traditionally warlike, and his sword might be connected with Lightbringer and might thus make him fire
Maiden - ice; white is the colour of purity, of good, of innocence
Smith - stone or fire, for smithing
Crone - fire (she holds a light, wisdom, knowledge, stealing fire and giving it to humans, enlightening them...)
Stranger - shadow

That is actually interesting... Only forest now has nobody.

Father - air
Mother - water (these two thematically fit, in that water and air usually exist before land is shaped - also, if we think of intercourse, the man lies on the woman and they shape a child; air on water, birthing land)
Warrior - fire (sword)
Maiden - ice
Smith - stone
Crone - forest, then... She represents wisdom, perhaps in the sense of the Weirwood trees representing knowledge?
Stranger - shadow

Though I do like connecting all the faiths this way - and it'd make certain named artefacts less... Prop-ish, if that makes sense (what about Robert's warhammer?) - I do think this is probably too far-fetched. But still. It would be a very nice 'actual creation story', that, over the aeons, has splintered beyond recognition, into different faiths and whatnot, with only some tangents remaining.

And indeed, what of Storm's End, what of the Storm Lords and the Storm Lands? What of their foundation story, battling with the god of wind and storm and whatnot? It's a very interesting parallel with the Iron Islands - and one might say the two are placed almost exactly opposite, with the Storm Lords closer to the south ('the fire side') and the Iron Islands closer to the north ('the ice side').

Perhaps water and ice are not separate elements, here, but instead, the Mother is stone (can still fit well enough) and the Smith is storm (or fire, with the Warrior being storm)? Storm's End was built higher and higher until it could overcome the gods, and Robert Baratheon had a fancy warhammer. But then, water might also fit the Maiden, so if I am onto something at all, this is something that has so many interpretations that we won't know until it gets revealed.

Of course, there are dozens of fanfictions that have explored Winterfell hiding Lightbringer in its crypts and whatnot - these things may also be true, with a more 'good versus evil' vibe, not much different from what one would expect. Still, I think that we can view A Song of Ice and Fire as, you know, ice versus fire, with all the other elements slowly choosing a side (Bran and / or the Greenseers as a whole would be forest, and so forth), with the coming books (not so explicitly) detailing the formation and movements of these factions (which has already begun; we've already moved away from 'medieval Houses' to 'elements and magical forces').

[Melifeather]

26 minutes ago, nlspeed said:

Regarding Euron's connection to the Greenseers, I see two interesting possibilities, the latter perhaps moreso than the former. The former would be that both Brynden and Euron have a Thousand Eyes and One:

A 'sixth sense'-eye that loses the ability to see the trees but gains the ability to see the forests; it doesn't function as a normal eye that sees depth and all, but as an eye that allows one to perceive 'everywhen' (perhaps not literally; our eyes allow us to see everything in theory, but not in practice either). 'Everywhen' would be like a thousand eyes looking simultaneously.

And one normal eye, much like ours; an eye that isn't pierced by a Weirwood root, an eye that isn't hidden underneath an eye patch.

The second would be... Well, Euron is the Crow's Eye. Brynden is a crow. Brynden has the thousand eyes - see above - while Euron has the one eye (hence why he keeps the other one hidden - it doesn't matter which one, so long as it is one). Euron is Brynden's agent, so to say.

I have tried to demonstrate upthread that Euron is Bloodraven's parallel inversion. His hair is black, while Bloodraven's is white. His eye under the red eyepatch is black and full of menace, while Bloodraven's eye under the black eyepatch is missing. Bloodraven sits underground in a throne of weirwood roots and is said to have a thousand eyes and one. Euron sails uncommonly fast and his site is symbolically from up high from the crow's nest high atop his ship. He may even have the crow's eye view from way up in the sky.

27 minutes ago, nlspeed said:

It might be that Euron could get stuck between 'good' (Bran) and 'evil' (the Others). I suspect he will come down on the side of the Others, because the descriptions of blue and storm he has going on suit that. Game of Thrones - the show - ends with Jon saying that the real enemy brings the storm, by the by.

Euron says he has struck fear in peoples from lands with many religions...nearly every religion, so he declares that they should worship him for he is like a god himself.

28 minutes ago, nlspeed said:

And indeed, what of Storm's End, what of the Storm Lords and the Storm Lands? What of their foundation story, battling with the god of wind and storm and whatnot? It's a very interesting parallel with the Iron Islands - and one might say the two are placed almost exactly opposite, with the Storm Lords closer to the south ('the fire side') and the Iron Islands closer to the north ('the ice side').

IMO the story of the Storm Lord stealing Elenei, daughter of two gods is symbolic of when the Children took magic and locked it away behind the Wall. The seas and wind have been angry ever since to be without their daughter, who may symbolize magic itself.

[Melifeather]

When I began work on my inversion theory someone asked me if it was based on the book, The Wheel of Time. At the time I hadn't even heard of the book much less knew that it was a well known series of books by Robert Jordan. In the meantime I've become acquainted with them and am on book 5, The Fires of Heaven. I am struck by how many things have been "recycled" by GRRM. There are elements that seem to echo greenseers, green men, weirwood groves, ogres/giants, a false spring, an all seeing eye, a wheel of time, tunnels under the ground to speed up travel, humans that communicate with wolves, a one true source referred to as the light, and a dark one as well as dark friends.

I've even began a list of sorts:

The main character is Rand al'Thor, a hidden warrior king, also known as the Dragon Reborn, and He Who Comes With the Dawn

Rand has powers to draw from a source he refers to as The One Power, and sometimes they describe him as having something akin to an umbilical cord attaching him to the source.

The noble houses play a game called Das Dae'Mar, or the game of houses (game of thrones)

Many of the characters are able to time travel using "the ways" which are tunnels, or by channeling themselves using gateways.

Rand al'Thor has even said the phrase, "they will know what it means to wake the dragon".

There are some men called "false dragons".

One of the main characters, Perrin Aybara can communicate with wolves, can walk in dreams with with or without dead wolf guides, has golden eyes, and heightened site and smell senses. The wolves refer to some dark friends as the Neverborn.

There is a Horn of Valere that the blower can bind dead heroes to fight for him.

They refer to a mountain range separating a wasteland on one side to an area where most other people live as "the spine of the world" and refer to a "breaking the wheel". People have flashes of memories from previous lives, and some heroes exist in a dreamworld called Tel'aran'rhiod until they are reborn.

Lastly, a shout out to Maester Flagons for this:

Lord Trebor Jordayne of House Jordayne of the Tor is also a clearer reference to Robert Jordan…Trebor is Robert in reverse, and Tor is the publisher of Jordan's books.

House Jordayne of the Tor is one of the principal noble houses of Dorne. The Tor is placed on the southern coast of the Sea of Dorne. Their blazon is a golden quill on checkered dark and light green. Their words do not appear in the books, but in a semi-canon source they are stated to be "Let it be Written".

House Jordayne was one of the Andal houses who came to Dorne during the Andal invasion of Westeros, along with House Uller, House Qorgyle, House Vaith, House Allyrion, House Santagar, and House Martell. At some point, House Martell bent the knee to the Jordayne kings of the Tor.  But by the time of Nymeria's War, House Jordayne was among the bannermen of King Yorick Yronwood, and fought against Mors Martell and his allies.

In summary....that's an awful lot of "bows" to Robert Jordan. Maybe these are all signals that we should suspect a wheel of time in Westeros too.

 

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

House Jordayne of the Tor is one of the principal noble houses of Dorne. The Tor is placed on the southern coast of the Sea of Dorne. Their blazon is a golden quill on checkered dark and light green.

A small point.  The actual passage is:

 

Quote

 

Bronn scanned the ranks of the approaching Dornishmen. "The last's a golden feather on green checks."

"A golden quill, ser. Jordayne of the Tor."

 

 

Checks is a play on words; think of the meaning in our culture. 

 

A golden quill signing checks, and the additional reference to Jordayne as "heir to the Tor," was essentially GRRM's late-nineties way of saying that Robert Jordan had focused on money. 

 

He had built extraordinary wealth through a never-ending fantasy series that had (by never ending) generated a certain amount of fan resentment.

 

I wonder what GRRM's heraldry for House Martyne might be today, given that GRRM has built more wealth, for a series that has gone on longer chronologically, and generated even more worldwide resentment. 

 

(Of course, when TWOW is eventually published, the dismay in... another place... will be even more spectacular than anything we see today, anywhere in the fandom.)

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, JNR said:

A small point.  The actual passage is:

 

 

Checks is a play on words; think of the meaning in our culture. 

 

A golden quill signing checks, and the additional reference to Jordayne as "heir to the Tor," was essentially GRRM's late-nineties way of saying that Robert Jordan had focused on money. 

 

He had built extraordinary wealth through a never-ending fantasy series that had (by never ending) generated a certain amount of fan resentment.

 

I wonder what GRRM's heraldry for House Martyne might be today, given that GRRM has built more wealth, for a series that has gone on longer chronologically, and generated even more worldwide resentment. 

 

(Of course, when TWOW is eventually published, the dismay in... another place... will be even more spectacular than anything we see today, anywhere in the fandom.)

The Wheel of Time series was completed by Brandon Sanderson after Robert Jordan died. God forbid someone else would finish ASOIAF.

Very clever about the quill signing checks, by the way.

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

In summary....that's an awful lot of "bows" to Robert Jordan. Maybe these are all signals that we should suspect a wheel of time in Westeros too.

 

Not necessarily. There's no doubting that GRRM has been influenced by Jordan and liberally salts his work with references to him by way of sly jokes and allusions such as the pen and check, but that's a long way from writing his own version of the series. 

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, JNR said:

(Of course, when TWOW is eventually published, the dismay in... another place... will be even more spectacular than anything we see today, anywhere in the fandom.)

Wouldn't count on it 

Whilst publication draws ever closer [google] its not going to be the last book so some things will remain unrevealed.

[JNR]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Whilst publication draws ever closer [google]

It draws closer in theory, but I'm afraid the odds seem poor for a March publication date, if you still think so. 

He would need to announce he was finished in the next few weeks for that to work.  From his LJ, this:

My appearance schedule for 2017 is very limited, and will remain so until WINDS is completed.

Sounds like he doesn't anticipate finishing this book any time soon.  Maybe Google would be your friend, in looking these things up?

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

its not going to be the last book so some things will remain unrevealed

That's true, but Jon's parentage is not likely to be one of them. 

It isn't nearly as central to the series as the fans think -- it certainly isn't the meaning of the phrase "a song of ice and fire" -- and there are strong narrative reasons for GRRM to publish it in TWOW that will become clear.

The origin of Others is a fundamentally different matter, unfortunately, and I would expect him to delay that and many related revelations until 2025 or so, and ADOS.

[Black Crow]

Hope springs eternal

[Black Crow]

And by way of another digression into my current re-read, here's Osha talking to Bran about things above the Wall:

Bran: And there are still giants there, and... the rest... the Others, and the children of the forest too!

Osha: The giants I've seen, the children I've heard tell of, and the white walkers... why do you want to know?

Its the context and above all the tense which is interesting here. Maester Luwin has told him that all three are long dead and gone. Bran asks Osha whether there are still any of them to be found beyond the Wall. She answers that all three are. Not were or have recently awakened but are all three without distinction.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Osha: The giants I've seen, the children I've heard tell of, and the white walkers... why do you want to know?

Its the context and above all the tense which is interesting here. Maester Luwin has told him that all three are long dead and gone. Bran asks Osha whether there are still any of them to be found beyond the Wall. She answers that all three are. Not were or have recently awakened but are all three without distinction.

I think that's debatable. She has seen giants, and she's heard "tell of" the Children, meaning somebody else said they saw some, but she doesn't elaborate on the Others other than call them white walkers. She knows that "the Others" mean "white walker", but that's about it.

[Black Crow]

7 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think that's debatable. She has seen giants, and she's heard "tell of" the Children, meaning somebody else said they saw some, but she doesn't elaborate on the Others other than call them white walkers. She knows that "the Others" mean "white walker", but that's about it.

She hasn't met them in person, which may be why she's able to have this conversation, but we know that all three exist and she is talking about the here and now rather than myth and legend,

[Melifeather]

39 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

She hasn't met them in person, which may be why she's able to have this conversation, but we know that all three exist and she is talking about the here and now rather than myth and legend,

She could just as easily be referring to the white walker stories of old, or the recent sightings too. It's not a definitive confirmation.

[LynnS]

44 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

She hasn't met them in person, which may be why she's able to have this conversation, but we know that all three exist and she is talking about the here and now rather than myth and legend,

Sorry, a slight side question to call on your memory.  The small, but significant plot device where Jon is unable to sense Ghost once he crosses the Wall.  Was that it's only purpose... to say the Wall blocks warging?  Was there any other point to it? 

[Frey family reunion]

27 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

She could just as easily be referring to the white walker stories of old, or the recent sightings too. It's not a definitive confirmation.

I agree.  I'll go a few steps further,  I'm not sure that the White Walkers that attacked Will and Sam actually live anywhere.  I think at most they are conjured up out of frozen air for a very specific purposes, and my guess is they dissipate later. 

I think the actual Others, or White Walkers, are very different creatures, white skinned, amphibious, and probably related to the southern legends of squishers.  So when Mormont said that there are reports of fisherfolk by East Watch seeing White Walkers, they are probably referring to the amphibious beings, perhaps the same ones that have apparently infested Hardhome.

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Bran asks Osha whether there are still any of them to be found beyond the Wall. She answers that all three are. Not were or have recently awakened but are all three without distinction.

Nothing about that Osha quote contradicts the notion that the WW's have only recently awakened/returned; we know she's talking about the WWs as more than just myth and legend because she later discusses the fact that Mance is fighting the WWs (and that she is fleeing them). Nonetheless, that is not inconsistent with them being myth and legend, even in the far north, up until very recently.

[Black Crow]

11 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Nothing about that Osha quote contradicts the notion that the WW's have only recently awakened/returned; we know she's talking about the WWs as more than just myth and legend because she later discusses the fact that Mance is fighting the WWs (and that she is fleeing them). Nonetheless, that is not inconsistent with them being myth and legend, even in the far north, up until very recently.

True, but we know that the children and the giants are and always have been around, but she doesn't distinguish between them and the walkers in answering Ban's question.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Sorry, a slight side question to call on your memory.  The small, but significant plot device where Jon is unable to sense Ghost once he crosses the Wall.  Was that it's only purpose... to say the Wall blocks warging?  Was there any other point to it? 

Its never actually explained.