R+L=J v.163

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You're still going too literally. The point is that an ice armour, or whatever way you put it, resembles a full plate, not chain mail etc. Plates, or layers, if you will, of smooth hard material.

In theory yes, to an outsider, but Jon can no doubt tell the difference between ice and plate. In his dream he is armoured in ice not steel.

[cgrav]

I suspect the Black Gate has some central role in the Wall's magic. The way it's set up makes it look like THE weirwood. It's given much stronger, direct Yggdrasil imagery than any other weirwood. Specifically that it's growing up through the structure, just as Yggdrasil grows from a well. Does its crying water instead of blood mean that an ice/water sacrifice was made to "activate" it, rather than a blood sacrifice?

 

16 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

In theory yes, to an outsider, but Jon can no doubt tell the difference between ice and plate. In his dream he is armoured in ice not steel.

"Black ice" could also be a visual approximation of obsidian. That would be very practical when battling the Others.

[LmL]

50 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I suspect the Black Gate has some central role in the Wall's magic. The way it's set up makes it look like THE weirwood. It's given much stronger, direct Yggdrasil imagery than any other weirwood. Specifically that it's growing up through the structure, just as Yggdrasil grows from a well. Does its crying water instead of blood mean that an ice/water sacrifice was made to "activate" it, rather than a blood sacrifice?

 

"Black ice" could also be a visual approximation of obsidian. That would be very practical when battling the Others.

That's pretty much what I meant - obsidian is frozen fire, and it's black - it's a black frozen thing which kinda sorta looks like ice... the same way the salt in "smoke and salt" could be a reference to snow.  But that is to me the weakest link between obsidian and black ice - I think the other connections I mentioned a couple of comments ago are more instructive. The fact that it looks kind of like black ice is icing on the cake, lol.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

I suspect the Black Gate has some central role in the Wall's magic. The way it's set up makes it look like THE weirwood. It's given much stronger, direct Yggdrasil imagery than any other weirwood. Specifically that it's growing up through the structure, just as Yggdrasil grows from a well. Does its crying water instead of blood mean that an ice/water sacrifice was made to "activate" it, rather than a blood sacrifice?

 

"Black ice" could also be a visual approximation of obsidian. That would be very practical when battling the Others.

Not at all. Even with the aid of magic working it into armour would be well nigh impossible and even then it would be brittle as hell, which is why in our world weapons larger than an arrowhead or dagger/spearhead take the form of a wooden club inset with shards of obsidian.

Jon dreams of being armoured in ice.

[Ygrain]

On 24. 12. 2016 at 4:35 PM, Black Crow said:

In theory yes, to an outsider, but Jon can no doubt tell the difference between ice and plate. In his dream he is armoured in ice not steel.

I never claimed that they look entirely the same or that they cannot be differentiated. I claimed that a person in black armour and a person armoured in black ice would look similar.

On 24. 12. 2016 at 4:53 PM, cgrav said:

"Black ice" could also be a visual approximation of obsidian.

The though occured to me, as well.

On 24. 12. 2016 at 6:28 PM, Black Crow said:

Not at all. Even with the aid of magic working it into armour would be well nigh impossible and even then it would be brittle as hell, which is why in our world weapons larger than an arrowhead or dagger/spearhead take the form of a wooden club inset with shards of obsidian.

Lol, with the aid of magic, the definition of "nigh impossible" can shift substantially, and so can obsidian's properties.

On 24. 12. 2016 at 6:28 PM, Black Crow said:

Jon dreams of being armoured in ice.

Black ice. Which normally doesn't exist - what we call "black ice" is a transparent layer of ice on a black surface, like on a black full plate  

Obsidian, a layer of ice on a black surface, some darkness inside, some weird play of light, or purely symbolic value... none of these can be excluded just yet.

 

[Sly Wren]

On December 23, 2016 at 9:33 PM, LmL said:

It's definitely an ice / fire juxtaposition - one could argue that is essentially what Jon is - but I do not see how that leads to conclude that black ice must mean this or that.

Fair enough. But given the context of "armored in" in Jon's POVs and the Others' armor and Martin's SSM about how the Others can do all sorts of things with ice--really seems like Jon's seeing ice.

On December 23, 2016 at 9:33 PM, LmL said:

If he's armored in black ice, that means he's a black ice sword, from a certain perspective. And again, he lusts after a (nearly) black sword called Ice. A Valyrian steel sword... just like the Valerian steel sword which burned red in his fist in that dream. 

Well, he actually longs for the true greatsword of his father, the bestowal of which through he valor would give him a family name. When he gets Longclaw, he knows he should be happy, but he's not. And he knows that he's not a Mormont just because he got that sword through valor.

The Valyrian steel is secondary at best: what Jon wants is the true greatsword of his father that will give him a family name. If he could win a Sacred Ham that would give him all of that, he'd probably long for ham.

On December 23, 2016 at 9:33 PM, LmL said:

And then you have the other scene with Jon and black ice, where the black ice literally turns to streaks of red fire. You can't decouple black ice and red fire, imo. 

In that sense, yes: we agree. Though I'd argue that "burning dawn" and sunlight (in the case of that image, the sunset--but sunrise and Dawn would have the same effect) fits better than dragon fire to that image. Icy Stark. Dawn-y Dayne.

On December 23, 2016 at 9:33 PM, LmL said:

Come on, now you are being silly. Of course I am not suggesting Jon or anyone mistakes dragonglass for ice. That doesn't make sense. I said that black ice is a symbol which I believe refers to both Valyrian steel and dragonglass, for all the reasons I laid out. 

I agree it could refer. But given the context of all of Jon's POVs, seems much more likely he's seeing the Wall. Which goes back to my original point: there is no Targ specific imagery around Jon. It's all equivocal at best.

On December 23, 2016 at 9:33 PM, LmL said:

I tend to look at the armor as slightly more symbolic - I like you notion of embracing the cold of the Watch and using it as a weapon or as armor, and like I said, the Wall is kind of like Westeros's ice armor.

I agree it could be symbolic--but given what we've seen of the Others, could also be literal. And the Wall coupled with the burning sword. . . that seems like a pointer.

On December 23, 2016 at 9:33 PM, LmL said:

I think the main things it implies is Jon being frozen, while at the same time having a component of fire to his nature... and of course I hint the black ice implies Jon as a dragonglass dagger - again, symbolically - meaning that Jon is the ultimate weapon against the others, as dragonglass is, and as Valyrian steel probably is. 

Maybe--but again: in the context of that novel and in context with the Others in the Game Prologue, and Jon's seeing the Sword of the Morning with the Wall, and Jon's seeing the "red and black Wall" in sunlight--seems like there's a good chance Jon's a combo of the ice and twilight grey of the Starks and the daylight Dawn of the Daynes. Sunlight, not dragon fire, brings the end of a Long Night.

On December 23, 2016 at 9:33 PM, LmL said:

I just look at it as an appropriate echo of rhaegar's armor, really - it's black ice because Jon is a frozen dragon.

This is getting to my key issue upthread: so far, there's no unequivocal dragon or Targ imagery around Jon. Compare his reactions to fire and dragons to Dany: the context of them only highlight how different they are, not that Jon has similar qualities.

Which means that Martin has tied Lyanna and Rhaegar together; and Jon and Lyanna together in Game (as shown by @Kingmonkey's essay) and then, as Dany develops into a Targ, left Jon in stasis. With some sort of "Surprise!" coming up in the later novels.

OR: the connection Lyanna/Rhaegar tie in Game is a misdirect--and all of the imagery and growth around Jon vs. all the imagery around Dany are the clue that Jon's not a dragon at all--he's not Rhaegar's son.

OR: @Black Crow's right, and Jon is a Targ, but has no Targ traits at all.

On December 23, 2016 at 9:33 PM, LmL said:

But given that many links exist between black ice and Valyrian steel (imo), there is an additional tie to Rhaegar's black steel armor.

Can't buy this. A tie between Dany and Rhaegar's black armor? Absolutely. But given the context of Jon and the Wall and the Others and what Jon sees: there's a link between the Wall and Sunlight. Turning the Wall into rivers of fire or gleaming like a diamond in the dawn.

On December 23, 2016 at 9:33 PM, LmL said:

And you have to admit, Euron's armor would look good on Jon...

Maybe--though Jon would probably mope in it, too.

[Black Crow]

4 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

 

OR: @Black Crow's right, and Jon is a Targ, but has no Targ traits at all.

 

???

[Sly Wren]

On December 24, 2016 at 1:50 AM, Ygrain said:

You're still going too literally. The point is that an ice armour, or whatever way you put it, resembles a full plate, not chain mail etc. Plates, or layers, if you will, of smooth hard material.

Not trying to be literal, just contextual. And, contextually, Jon's noted all kinds of things as armor. And used "armored in" as a metaphor--including saying rocks in Dance are "armored in ice."

So, just like the Wall and the Sword of the Morning are tied together in Jon's semi-epiphany, seems like the Wall (black ice) and the burning light (as Jon sees the sunlight turning the Wall to rivers of fire) are tied together. 

And, given what we've seen of the Others and their armor and Martin's SSM--seems like ice armor may be a possibility.

Quote

Not at all. Even with the aid of magic working it into armour would be well nigh impossible and even then it would be brittle as hell, which is why in our world weapons larger than an arrowhead or dagger/spearhead take the form of a wooden club inset with shards of obsidian.

Jon dreams of being armoured in ice.

 

@Black Crow: 

And the SSM on how the Others can do all sorts of magical things with ice--seems like either Jon's "armored" in the Wall, or in ice armor--or both.

Quote

Black ice. Which normally doesn't exist - what we call "black ice" is a transparent layer of ice on a black surface, like on a black full plate  

But Jon's seen ice turn all kinds of colors--especially at the Wall. And after the ice storm at Craster's--sunlight transforms ice, especially the ice of the Wall: a point that gets made throughout Jon's POVs. The black is important, but less so than the ice--especially given all of that context.

Quote

Obsidian, a layer of ice on a black surface, some darkness inside, some weird play of light, or purely symbolic value... none of these can be excluded just yet.

I agree--can't exclude. But given the context, it fits much better if this isn't about Rhaegar's armor at all. It's about the Wall and all that Jon has seen. And the Others.

Now if Dany saw herself in black armor, we'd know exactly what was up--given the context around her.

Given the context around Jon, seems much more likely Rhaegar's got nothing to do with it.

[Sly Wren]

7 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

???

Isn't that an argument you've made before? That Jon may be Rhaegar's son, but the Targaryen traits will be latent and not a factor?

I apologize if I'm shoving you into an idea that's not yours--I just could swear you've made a similar argument a few times before. Very sorry if I've misremembered.

[LmL]

12 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Fair enough. But given the context of "armored in" in Jon's POVs and the Others' armor and Martin's SSM about how the Others can do all sorts of things with ice--really seems like Jon's seeing ice.

Well, he actually longs for the true greatsword of his father, the bestowal of which through he valor would give him a family name. When he gets Longclaw, he knows he should be happy, but he's not. And he knows that he's not a Mormont just because he got that sword through valor.

The Valyrian steel is secondary at best: what Jon wants is the true greatsword of his father that will give him a family name. If he could win a Sacred Ham that would give him all of that, he'd probably long for ham.

In that sense, yes: we agree. Though I'd argue that "burning dawn" and sunlight (in the case of that image, the sunset--but sunrise and Dawn would have the same effect) fits better than dragon fire to that image. Icy Stark. Dawn-y Dayne.

I agree it could refer. But given the context of all of Jon's POVs, seems much more likely he's seeing the Wall. Which goes back to my original point: there is no Targ specific imagery around Jon. It's all equivocal at best.

I agree it could be symbolic--but given what we've seen of the Others, could also be literal. And the Wall coupled with the burning sword. . . that seems like a pointer.

Maybe--but again: in the context of that novel and in context with the Others in the Game Prologue, and Jon's seeing the Sword of the Morning with the Wall, and Jon's seeing the "red and black Wall" in sunlight--seems like there's a good chance Jon's a combo of the ice and twilight grey of the Starks and the daylight Dawn of the Daynes. Sunlight, not dragon fire, brings the end of a Long Night.

This is getting to my key issue upthread: so far, there's no unequivocal dragon or Targ imagery around Jon. Compare his reactions to fire and dragons to Dany: the context of them only highlight how different they are, not that Jon has similar qualities.

Which means that Martin has tied Lyanna and Rhaegar together; and Jon and Lyanna together in Game (as shown by @Kingmonkey's essay) and then, as Dany develops into a Targ, left Jon in stasis. With some sort of "Surprise!" coming up in the later novels.

OR: the connection Lyanna/Rhaegar tie in Game is a misdirect--and all of the imagery and growth around Jon vs. all the imagery around Dany are the clue that Jon's not a dragon at all--he's not Rhaegar's son.

OR: @Black Crow's right, and Jon is a Targ, but has no Targ traits at all.

Can't buy this. A tie between Dany and Rhaegar's black armor? Absolutely. But given the context of Jon and the Wall and the Others and what Jon sees: there's a link between the Wall and Sunlight. Turning the Wall into rivers of fire or gleaming like a diamond in the dawn.

Maybe--though Jon would probably mope in it, too.

Ah, I see, you are already on a mission to assert there is no Targaryen symbolism around. I think that's definitely coloring your analysis here. I think I'll just agree to disagree. 

[Sly Wren]

1 minute ago, LmL said:

Ah, I see, you are already on a mission to assert there is no Targaryen symbolism around. I think that's definitely coloring your analysis here. I think I'll just agree to disagree. 

1. Not on a mission: just trying to follow through on what @J. Stargaryen seemed to be doing upthread when he brought in his own version of ALJ, while still countering that he thinks RLJ is superior.

I'm trying to see if we can break down how we judge the theories, what we value about them, and how we all work our evidence. The options i gave above are (hopefully) a starting point.

And I in no way am trying to imply that Star would agree with my analysis--just that I was trying to work with his basic debate.

2. As for coloring analysis--at this point, I can't see how anyone's neutral. Throw in that we are all human (far as I can tell ) and humans are an innately subjective lot--we're all going to have things color our interps.

We're all in a colorful mess together, no?

[LmL]

1 minute ago, Sly Wren said:

1. Not on a mission: just trying to follow through on what @J. Stargaryen seemed to be doing upthread when he brought in his own version of ALJ, while still countering that he thinks RLJ is superior.

I'm trying to see if we can break down how we judge the theories, what we value about them, and how we all work our evidence. The options i gave above are (hopefully) a starting point.

And I in no way am trying to imply that Star would agree with my analysis--just that I was trying to work with his basic debate.

2. As for coloring analysis--at this point, I can't see how anyone's neutral. Throw in that we are all human (far as I can tell ) and humans are an innately subjective lot--we're all going to have things color our interps.

We're all in a colorful mess together, no?

It's just that if you are trying to interpret John symbolism through the lens of he is not a Targaryen, we aren't going to agree on much. As for your specific arguments about the black ice, I don't see that you're really even addressing my points. Let me just ask you - in your interpretation of the black ice symbol, why do we see it paired with red fire on two occasions? Once at Sunset as the last light fades, and the other time at night, well Jon defends the Wall in his dream. What does it mean?

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

SlyWren is the Holocaust Denier of ASOIAF.

[Ygrain]

34 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Not trying to be literal, just contextual. And, contextually, Jon's noted all kinds of things as armor. And used "armored in" as a metaphor--including saying rocks in Dance are "armored in ice."

Well, since the scene is a fight, I doubt the armoring part is purely metaphorical.

34 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

I agree--can't exclude. But given the context, it fits much better if this isn't about Rhaegar's armor at all. It's about the Wall and all that Jon has seen. And the Others.

Now if Dany saw herself in black armor, we'd know exactly what was up--given the context around her.

Given the context around Jon, seems much more likely Rhaegar's got nothing to do with it.

Except that in this interpretation of context of yours, the burning red sword kinda doesn't fit. The sword of AA/PTWP... whom Rhaegar was attempting to create. So, yes, the context very much allows for a Rhaegar connection because through the PTWP stuff, it is already there.

 

[Sly Wren]

16 minutes ago, LmL said:

It's just that if you are trying to interpret John symbolism through the lens of he is not a Targaryen, we aren't going to agree on much.

That's fair--but what I've been trying for a while to find is imagery or symbolism or "learning moments" (sorry--I can't think of a better way to phrase that and it sounds sappy) around Jon that supports the idea that he's growing into a dragon. Especially compared to Dany. So far, really seems like any such stuff around Jon is always equivocal at best.

If he's becoming a dragon, seems like he's going to have to do it all in one go. A big surprise in the last book or two. Definitely a possibility.

16 minutes ago, LmL said:

As for your specific arguments about the black ice, I don't see that you're really even addressing my points. Let me just ask you - in your interpretation of the black ice symbol, why do we see it paired with red fire on two occasions? Once at Sunset as the last light fades, and the other time at night, well Jon defends the Wall in his dream. What does it mean?

I think it means that the wall and daylight are tied together--just as Jon sees the Wall transform in sunlight throughout the novels. In this case, as darkness falls (possibly meaning that the Long Night is coming closer) the light transforms the ice into looking fire.

Just as when the sun rises, it transforms ice into looking like jewels outside Craster's. And the dawn seems to transform the Wall into something beautiful and glimmering, despite all the scars.

The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface. Storm, Jon IV

So, just as the Wall and ice can be "jewels" and "glimmering" under sunlight, it can be "red fire" as the last light hits it--as night falls. And to combat the darkness, Jon needs daylight. Fire alone won't do. Dragonfire won't do. Only daylight. Dawn.

Right after Jon sees the "last light" turning the Wall to red fire, he thinks that Mel will be starting her chanting. And Jon breaks the "awkward silence" to give a speech that the Wall is where they need to focus. The Wall is their salvation.

He's been rejecting Mel and the Fire lot and showing his disdain for what he thinks is Selye's willingness to walk into flames (that's gotta be a reference for the reader toe Dany). Instead, he's choosing the Wall.

And the start of his next POV? He's armored in that black ice holding a burning red sword--a clear tie to the icy Wall  that he just saw as being both black ice and red fire under sunlight. And what he's see throughout the novels.

Just seems more likely that's it--not dragons. Given the context around Jon.

19 minutes ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

SlyWren is the Holocaust Denier of ASOIAF.

Wait--RLJ is equivalent to the Holocaust? 

That comparison's just wrong on so many levels.

[Sly Wren]

8 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Well, since the scene is a fight, I doubt the armoring part is purely metaphorical.

Agreed--though it would be interesting. . . . or maybe I'm just so hungry for the next novel anything would be interesting.

8 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Except that in this interpretation of context of yours, the burning red sword kinda doesn't fit. The sword of AA/PTWP... whom Rhaegar was attempting to create. So, yes, the context very much allows for a Rhaegar connection because through the PTWP stuff, it is already there.

Right--if Rhaegar's prophecy or the Red Lot's AA stuff were the only context.

But we also have the context of what Jon sees in the POV right before the dream: he sees the Wall as BOTH burning red and black ice under sunlight.

And Jon in Storm sees a very specific sword as associated with the Wall--the Sword of the Morning. 

So, the idea that ice can both burn red and be black ice--Jon just saw that--right before his dream.

And the idea that there's a specific sword that goes with the Wall--Jon saw that, too.

The context of what Jon's seeing and learning is a context that counts, too, no? And so far, we've got little evidence that The Red Lot or Rhaegar have got this right. But we do know what Jon's seeing--could it tie into those prophecies? Maybe. But this is where the "equivocal" nature of the evidence tying Jon to Rhaegar comes in. How much that ties in is TBD.

But his tie to the Wall? Clear. What he sees light do to the Wall? Comes right before his dream. And the tie between the Sword of the Morning and the Wall? No clear tie to Rhaegar--but a very clear tie to the Daynes and the Starks.

The equivocal evidence of Jon's tie Rhaegar and the Targs might come clear in later novels. But, for now, it's . . . equivocal.

[LmL]

@Sly Wren, I don't think I can have this conversation. You're saying John and the watch reject fire - but this is dead wrong. The watch uses fire, just as Mormont says. Fire! Of course! They should have remembered. And what is John wielding in his dream against the forces of the north, a black sword, burning red in his fist. The Nights Watch also wields Dragon glass, another form of Fire. Sono - Jon and the watch are absolutely not rejecting fire in any way.

You also did not explain how black ice and red wire go together. And by the way, the thing which brings the day is actually not the Sun, but the Morning Star. The Morning Star is the light-bringer, the dawn bringer. The sun is the thing we need to bring back, and the thing that brings it back is lightbringer. The Sword in the darkness - that is not the Sun. We need lightbringer to bring the sun back - and that is John. John himself is a sword in the darkness - and as I said, he can only be a black sword as he is armored in black ice and as he wears black and as he wields black weapons. Is compared to Dragon glass, and he's called Lord Snow - but he's a lord snow that wears black. Black snow, black ice, that's him. He dreams up his father's sword - his father's sword is a sword named ice which is almost black. Now, it has the Targaryen colors of red and black, blood and darkness. It matches Johns color symbolism perfectly, and that's the sort he wants. Black ice. Anyway. 

[LmL]

And yes, "Holocaust denier" is in extremely poor taste. That's why I playfully use the term Flat Earth Society for the folks who are still trying to pursue non RLJ alternatives. But that argument is for another thread.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

16 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

 

Wait--RLJ is equivalent to the Holocaust? 

That comparison's just wrong on so many levels.

It's the absurdity of the situation. Denying something so obvious and confirmed as RLJ is as absurd as denying the Holocaust, or thinking that Tupac is alive.

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

It's the absurdity of the situation. Denying something so obvious and confirmed as RLJ is as absurd as denying the Holocaust, or thinking that Tupac is alive.

Surely, this why I suggest flat Earth Society- it implies the same thing without the element of horrific human tragedy.  It's just not something to joke about or use as an analogy to anything else. But that's neither here nor there...

I do think almost everyone has moved past questioning RLJ, all but a small group of people who have been invested in questioning RLJ for a long time now (for the most part). That's all well and good - it's a free world and art is subjective - but to me the interpretations of Jon's symbolism which try to step around his Targaryen lineage are problematic and unconvincing.