R+L=J v.163

[LmL]

Oh and @Sly Wren the wall does not only transformed in sunlight. It also transforms in darkness, or when a cloud passes in front of the sun, or when it is struck with moonlight, or even when people's shadows or the reflections of fire play on the Wall's surface.  You can interpret all of that however you want, but the fact is that it is not only sunlight which transforms the Wall. It looks like black stone only on moonless nights, for example. The Wall becomes black stone when there is no moon in the sky? That's interesting, I'd say.  

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Isn't that an argument you've made before? That Jon may be Rhaegar's son, but the Targaryen traits will be latent and not a factor?

Close, but not quite in those terms. My argument is that what matters is that Jon is the bastard son of Lyanna Stark, which is why he displays the Stark features and traits, just as Trouserless Bob's bastards are black of hair and Jaime's/Cersei's bastards are Lannister gold. In the end its going to be a Stark - a son of Winterfell - as Aemon proclaimed him, which is going to be important.

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, LmL said:

@Sly Wren, I don't think I can have this conversation. You're saying John and the watch reject fire - but this is dead wrong. The watch uses fire, just as Mormont says. Fire! Of course! They should have remembered. And what is John wielding in his dream against the forces of the north, a black sword, burning red in his fist. The Nights Watch also wields Dragon glass, another form of Fire. Sono - Jon and the watch are absolutely not rejecting fire in any way.

You're right--I was overly general in the statement--though not in my examples.

So--Jon and the Watch and (probably) all humans in the story light fire for heat and fighting off death and light and all of that.

But that is a very different affinity for fire than we see in Dany or in Mel and Co. THAT kind of affinity is clearly shown in the movels--and shown to be different from Jon's.

And Jon does scorn and fear Mel's and Selyse's affinity for fire--sacrificing children and people, praying to fire for salvation--and specifically thinking with scorn that Selyse would walk into fire out of her fanaticism.

That kind of affinity with fire--the dragon-seeking affinity we see in Dany and in Mel--that's what Jon rejects. 

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You also did not explain how black ice and red wire go together. And by the way, the thing which brings the day is actually not the Sun, but the Morning Star. The Morning Star is the light-bringer, the dawn bringer. The sun is the thing we need to bring back, and the thing that brings it back is lightbringer. The Sword in the darkness - that is not the Sun. We need lightbringer to bring the sun back - and that is John.

I can go with this--the star in the hilt of the Sword of the Morning? And the black ice and red fire going together--how they go together is open to interp--but the fact that both are seen in the sunlight on the Wall implies that even ice can "burn" with light.

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John himself is a sword in the darkness - and as I said, he can only be a black sword as he is armored in black ice and as he wears black and as he wields black weapons. Is compared to Dragon glass, and he's called Lord Snow - but he's a lord snow that wears black. Black snow, black ice, that's him.

Agreed.

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He dreams up his father's sword - his father's sword is a sword named ice which is almost black. Now, it has the Targaryen colors of red and black, blood and darkness. It matches Johns color symbolism perfectly, and that's the sort he wants. Black ice. Anyway. 

Right--but he doesn't want the sword because it's Valyrian steel. He wants it because it will give him a family name. If Valyrian steel and a bestowal were enough, he'd be satisfied with Longclaw--but he's not. Even from the start. Flat out thinks that Longclaw can't make him a Mormont. 

If the family heirloom that would give Jon his father's name were a sword made from sacred ham, he'd long for that. It's the tie to the father that Jon dreams of--not the steel.

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Oh and @Sly Wren the wall does not only transformed in sunlight. It also transforms in darkness, or when a cloud passes in front of the sun, or when it is struck with moonlight, or even when people's shadows or the reflections of fire play on the Wall's surface.  You can interpret all of that however you want, but the fact is that it is not only sunlight which transforms the Wall. It looks like black stone only on moonless nights, for example. The Wall becomes black stone when there is no moon in the sky? That's interesting, I'd say. 

Very interesting--and you are right with the moment of the flames putting Stanns and Mel's shadows on the Wall--makes me think of the potential (and I think likely) tie between the white shadows and the black shadows--born of fire. The potential for the Wall to be evil--a hinge that can turn many ways.

And I agree: it's not only sunlight that transforms the Wall. But there are at least two moments when sunlight transforms ice to Jon's delight and hope: the ice outside Craster's (after Jon happily sleeps away from the smoky warmth of Craster's fire) and when he "allows himself to hope" after his dark night of the soul. 

The Wall and ice transformed in daylight bring hope--at least a few times. Daylight on the Wall brings life and hope.

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Close, but not quite in those terms. My argument is that what matters is that Jon is the bastard son of Lyanna Stark, which is why he displays the Stark features and traits, just as Trouserless Bob's bastards are black of hair and Jaime's/Cersei's bastards are Lannister gold. In the end its going to be a Stark - a son of Winterfell - as Aemon proclaimed him, which is going to be important.

@Black Crow: my apologies for mucking up your intent.

And on the bolded: I agree. Though I'd add that I think his bastardy is part of his strength/armor as well in doing this. And that he seems to also need the right sword.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--though it would be interesting. . . . or maybe I'm just so hungry for the next novel anything would be interesting.

Right--if Rhaegar's prophecy or the Red Lot's AA stuff were the only context.

But we also have the context of what Jon sees in the POV right before the dream: he sees the Wall as BOTH burning red and black ice under sunlight.

And Jon in Storm sees a very specific sword as associated with the Wall--the Sword of the Morning. 

So, the idea that ice can both burn red and be black ice--Jon just saw that--right before his dream.

And the idea that there's a specific sword that goes with the Wall--Jon saw that, too.

The context of what Jon's seeing and learning is a context that counts, too, no? And so far, we've got little evidence that The Red Lot or Rhaegar have got this right. But we do know what Jon's seeing--could it tie into those prophecies? Maybe. But this is where the "equivocal" nature of the evidence tying Jon to Rhaegar comes in. How much that ties in is TBD.

But his tie to the Wall? Clear. What he sees light do to the Wall? Comes right before his dream. And the tie between the Sword of the Morning and the Wall? No clear tie to Rhaegar--but a very clear tie to the Daynes and the Starks.

The equivocal evidence of Jon's tie Rhaegar and the Targs might come clear in later novels. But, for now, it's . . . equivocal.

Is GRRM somehow supposed to be limited in writing the content of dreams to what the characters are seeing and learning? What was it that Jon had seen that compelled him to go down into the crypts in his dreams? 

You're really trying too hard to discount anything that might relate Jon to Targaryens to build a convincing case.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

I do think almost everyone has moved past questioning RLJ, all but a small group of people who have been invested in questioning RLJ for a long time now (for the most part). That's all well and good - it's a free world and art is subjective - but to me the interpretations of Jon's symbolism which try to step around his Targaryen lineage are problematic and unconvincing.  

Well, there are variations in this matter.

Some of us merely question it, abstractly.  Others have more confidence in specific alternative explanations.  But all of us chuckle quietly, reading your posts and the posts of those like you.  

Do we remind you of the Flat Earth Society?  You remind us of the 13th century church, which was similarly sure of geocentrism, based on analytical skills of a similar type and level of sophistication.

It was easy to see why the church believed what it did.  Each day without fail, the sun rose in the east, proceeded across the sky, and set in the west.  All knew this to be true. 

How, then, could anyone doubt that the sun orbited the Earth, just as the moon did?

How could anyone question that God had placed the Earth, and by extension mankind, at the center of the universe? That would be a complete misinterpretation of the divine symbolism… and symbolism was obviously, to the church, at least, the best way to assess reality.

Yet the true believers of the church were always wrong.  And there came a day when they realized that, to the profound and enduring amusement of the vastly outnumbered, but far more accurate, scientific community.

[LmL]

36 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

You're right--I was overly general in the statement--though not in my examples.

So--Jon and the Watch and (probably) all humans in the story light fire for heat and fighting off death and light and all of that.

But that is a very different affinity for fire than we see in Dany or in Mel and Co. THAT kind of affinity is clearly shown in the movels--and shown to be different from Jon's.

And Jon does scorn and fear Mel's and Selyse's affinity for fire--sacrificing children and people, praying to fire for salvation--and specifically thinking with scorn that Selyse would walk into fire out of her fanaticism.

That kind of affinity with fire--the dragon-seeking affinity we see in Dany and in Mel--that's what Jon rejects

Except that Jon dreams of wielding a flaming red sword, which is right at the heart of the Lightbringer / Azor Ahai reborn fable. SO while this kind of magic may terrify him, it may nevertheless be a part of his destiny. 

 

37 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

I can go with this--the star in the hilt of the Sword of the Morning? And the black ice and red fire going together--how they go together is open to interp--but the fact that both are seen in the sunlight on the Wall implies that even ice can "burn" with light.

I definitely think the books make it clear that ice can burn - nothing burns like the cold. It's just that in this scene, it is specifically black ice turning to red fire, with no Dawn symbolism to be seen anywhere. So again I would say that black ice and red fire are being paired together, something that cannot be overlooked. 

 

39 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Right--but he doesn't want the sword because it's Valyrian steel. He wants it because it will give him a family name. If Valyrian steel and a bestowal were enough, he'd be satisfied with Longclaw--but he's not. Even from the start. Flat out thinks that Longclaw can't make him a Mormont. 

If the family heirloom that would give Jon his father's name were a sacred ham, he'd long for that. It's the tie to the father that Jon dreams of--not the steel.

I don't disagree - Jon covet's Ned's sword, not a black steel, certainly. He wants his father's sword. But that doesn't cut against my argument, which is simply that his father's sword - the one he wants - is the black ice sword which now also incorporates the black and red color scheme and the idea flame - ("the crossguard flamed gold.")  In other words, Jon appears twice with black ice / red fire symbolism, and I am saying that symbolism can also be seen in his father's sword, the one he covets. The implication of frozen blood is also there too, because we a sword formerly called Ice which is hardened steel that look like waves of blood. That is why I think Oathkeeper is the ultimate sword for Jon... could absolutely be wrong about that, I never get too certain with predicting the future, but it seems Jon is a match for that sword in so many ways. 

[LmL]

12 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, there are variations in this matter.

Some of us merely question it, abstractly.  Others have more confidence in specific alternative explanations.  But all of us chuckle quietly, reading your posts and the posts of those like you.  

Do we remind you of the Flat Earth Society?  You remind us of the 13th century church, which was similarly sure of geocentrism, based on analytical skills of a similar type and level of sophistication.

It was easy to see why the church believed what it did.  Each day without fail, the sun rose in the east, proceeded across the sky, and set in the west.  All knew this to be true. 

How, then, could anyone doubt that the sun orbited the Earth, just as the moon did?

How could anyone question that God had placed the Earth, and by extension mankind, at the center of the universe? That would be a complete misinterpretation of the divine symbolism… and symbolism was obviously, to the church, at least, the best way to assess reality.

Yet the true believers of the church were always wrong.  And there came a day when they realized that, to the profound and enduring amusement of the vastly outnumbered, but far more accurate, scientific community.

I understand that you all would have this view. There's not really a whole lot to say about it. Most of the fandom considers it settled or nearly so, while a few do not. You guys think you have the true insight and that most everyone else is wrong; most other people think the opposite. And that is that. 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

@Black Crow: my apologies for mucking up your intent.

No probs 

By the by there's another reference in the books to armour made of ice and again its in a dream; this time its Danaerys the Dragonlord dreaming of being her brother Rhaegar going into battle on the Trident, where the Usurper's men are all armoured in Ice.

[Shmedricko]

I made a compilation of every time Jon's mother is mentioned in his chapters (link to the reddit post, if anyone wants to read through those), and while I was collecting the quotes, I noticed a couple of details that I haven't seen mentioned before.

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"The Watch has need of every man it can get," Donal Noye said when they were alone. "Even men like Toad. You won't win any honors killing him."

Jon's anger flared. "He said my mother was—"

"—a whore. I heard him. What of it?"

"Lord Eddard Stark was not a man to sleep with whores," Jon said icily. "His honor—"

"—did not prevent him from fathering a bastard. Did it?" (Jon III, AGOT)

Donal Noye is asking this rhetorically, but for the reader this can be intended as a genuine question to ponder. "His honor did not prevent him from fathering a bastard. Did it?"

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"Words won't make your mother a whore. She was what she was, and nothing Toad says can change that. You know, we have men on the Wall whose mothers were whores."

Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

"You think you had it hard, being a high lord's bastard?" the armorer went on. "That boy Jeren is a septon's get, and Cotter Pyke is the baseborn son of a tavern wench. Now he commands Eastwatch by the Sea."

"I don't care," Jon said. "I don't care about them and I don't care about you or Thorne or Benjen Stark or any of it. I hate it here. It's too … it's cold."

"Yes. Cold and hard and mean, that's the Wall, and the men who walk it. Not like the stories your wet nurse told you. Well, piss on the stories and piss on your wet nurse. This is the way it is, and you're here for life, same as the rest of us."

"Life," Jon repeated bitterly. The armorer could talk about life. He'd had one. He'd only taken the black after he'd lost an arm at the siege of Storm's End. Before that he'd smithed for Stannis Baratheon, the king's brother. He'd seen the Seven Kingdoms from one end to the other; he'd feasted and wenched and fought in a hundred battles. They said it was Donal Noye who'd forged King Robert's warhammer, the one that crushed the life from Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident. (Jon III, AGOT)

The first and so far only time Rhaegar is mentioned in Jon's chapters happens not that long after we learn about Jon's possibly prophetic dreams of his beautiful, highborn mother.

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Pyp lowered his voice. "The king's dead."

Jon was stunned. Robert Baratheon had looked old and fat when he visited Winterfell, yet he'd seemed hale enough, and there'd been no talk of illness. "How can you know?"

"One of the guards overheard Clydas reading the letter to Maester Aemon." Pyp leaned close. "Jon, I'm sorry. He was your father's friend, wasn't he?"

"They were as close as brothers, once." (Jon VII, AGOT)

It's not much, but I just noticed that Pyp's question, while true for Ned, could not be further from the truth for Rhaegar.

[Voice]

On December 23, 2016 at 11:32 AM, Sly Wren said:

I'm wondering now if this is tied to the "armored in black ice" withe red burning blade. You know that I think Dawn could very well burn red. That would be the Daynes.

 

Dawn always burns red. We see the proof of that every morning of every day. And I don't find it all that big a leap to suggest that the icy longsword of House Dayne received its name because it ended some long night. 

 

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But "armored in black ice"--a member of the Night's Watch embracing the role, armoring himself in it, as Tyrion tells Jon to armor himself if his bastardy. That would be the potential opposite of the Night's King, no? Instead of going mad with power, embracing his role as protector, not conquerer. Armored in the Wall instead of in sorcery for power.

Maybe.

 

Mayhaps. Jon isn't exactly humble or meek when wielding his fiery dream-blade though. He claims to be the lord of Winterfell, and cuts off Robb's head. 

But yes, he is guarding the Wall, and thus, protecting Winterfell's godswood which of course lies just to the south of it. That he is doing this, rather than giving his seed and soul to a moon woman or enslaving his brothers with sorcery, is definitely reassuring.   

 

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ETA: Just remembered this:

           Lonely and lovely and lethal, Jon Snow reflected, and I might have had her. Her, and Winterfell, and my lord father's name. Instead he had chosen a black cloak and a wall of ice. Instead he had chosen honor. A bastard's sort of honor. Dance, Jon III.

Jon's thinking of Val and taking her. Taking her and Winterfell and the name of Stark. Instead, chooses honor. He's thus the apparent opposite of the Night's King: choosing duty and the Wall over a beautiful woman and dominance.

Throughout the first three novels, Jon repeatedly thinks about whether or not a bastard can have honor. Here, he's chosen that he can. So, armoring himself in bastardy and honor is armoring himself in the Wall? The ultimate in "Snowgate?" And the opposite of the fallen Night's King.

 

Yup, that's how I see him anyway. Jon took Tyrion's words to heart. It took a while, but they eventually sank in and took root. 

And regarding Jon's choice of cloak and blade, let us compare him with his father...

 A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.  

[snip]

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

 

In this moment, Ned and his companions are very Other-like, are they not? They are grey shadows on horses made of mist, holding shadow-swords. I have a feeling dream-Jon would cut them down. 

I am pretty certain that I am the first person, if not the only person LOL, to argue that this event (the showdown at the tower of joy) is what allowed the Others to return after being on sabbatical for 8000 years. The blue eyes of death are the clue, as is the blood-streaked sky. Dreams are oft dismissed, but I find them to be far more reliable than any maester. 

In this fevered state, Ned is reliving the time approached Dawn itself. He killed Jon's dad, the Sword of the Morning, the carrier of Dawn... it makes sense to me that a Stark would make Winter Come. 

And, that is what this dream tells us, in my humble opinion anyway. I'll explain.

Ned is dreaming his old, prophetic dream of the Red Comet ("blood-streaked sky") and the return of winter -- blue eyes of death that ride the wind itself. 

There are few people who haunt Ned's dreams. It should interest us that Arthur Dayne is one of them and that Rhaegar is not. It should also interest us that Ned begins to hear dream-Lyanna as soon as he clashes with Arthur. 

 

7 hours ago, LmL said:

Surely, this why I suggest flat Earth Society- it implies the same thing without the element of horrific human tragedy.  It's just not something to joke about or use as an analogy to anything else. But that's neither here nor there...

 

Forgive my intrusion, but wouldn't the RLJ Faith Militant be the Flat Earthers in the analogy? Or perhaps, Geocentrists? If I recall correctly, the writings that offended the Spanish Inquisition were authored by men like Nicholas Copernicus and Galileo Galilei. Those guys were Heretics with a capital H.  

And in spite of the popularity and power of the Faith's doctrines, history would eventually prove those Heretics to be quite right in their postulations. Just sayin'...

 

7 hours ago, LmL said:

I do think almost everyone has moved past questioning RLJ, all but a small group of people who have been invested in questioning RLJ for a long time now (for the most part). That's all well and good - it's a free world and art is subjective - but to me the interpretations of Jon's symbolism which try to step around his Targaryen lineage are problematic and unconvincing.  

 

I certainly cannot attest to the motivations of all who question RLJ, but for myself, this feels quite off the mark. Rather than feel invested in questioning RLJ, I was once quite in favor of RLJ. And still quite like it as a theory. But rather than accept it because I like it (which, yes, I still do), I feel the need to test the theory and examine it a bit more critically than is generally permitted in this thread. 

For example, interpretations of RLJ tend to step around Lyanna's own words/character/convictions, which I find problematic and unconvincing.   

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Voice said:

And regarding Jon's choice of cloak and blade, let us compare him with his father...

 A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.  

[snip]

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

 

In this moment, Ned and his companions are very Other-like, are they not? They are grey shadows on horses made of mist, holding shadow-swords. I have a feeling dream-Jon would cut them down. 

 

Hi @Voice ! Good to you see you.  And good to disagree with you, as ever, lol. While I will grant you the mists here sound like Others, the rest of it does not in my opinion. We have seen white shadows - the Others - and black shadows - the shadow baby assassins birthed by Melisandre and Stannis. Additionally, Drogon is the winged shadow who refrequenztly brings eclipses and shadow. Point being, "shadows" do not always = Others. Here the shadows / wraiths are grey, which of course can go either way - pale grey is the same as white while a grey which is smoke dark is almost black. But the shadow swords, that's another thing altogether. The word "shadowsword" is used twice in the books apart for this scene, both in the scene where the shadowbaby assassin version of Stannis kills Renly. So grey wraiths with shadowswords... that's a better fit for a dark kind of shadow. Besides, the Others, the white or pale shadows, do not have shadowy swords at all. Their swords gleam faintly with moonlight, appearing like like a translucent shard of crystal, as you well know. They are also twice called pale swords (as you know), so the symbolism between the swords of the Others is a better match to Arthur's sword in the ToJ scene, not the shadowswords in the hands of the grey wraiths. 

There is a scene where Theon recalls Ned's relative kindness, thinking to himself that "the shadow of his greatsword always lay between them," which you could take as a tie in to the same shadowsword symbolism we were just discussing. It's less conclusive, but other evidence leads to believe Ned's sword and all valyrian steel swords are "shadowswords" in a sense. 

But across from the grey wraiths with shadowswords, we actually have wonderful analogs to the Others - the Kingsguard. They have snow white armor and cloaks, sometimes moon pale armor and cloaks, they sometimes look ghostly in the moonlight, they are called the white swords (the Others have flesh which is "milky white" and they are "swords slim"). I am sure you are aware of the extensive symbolic parallels between the KG and the Others, so I shall not go on and on. And naturally, you are a believer in Dawn = original Ice, so the ToJ is entirely consistent, as is every scene with Arthur wielding Dawn - a warrior in snowy, moon pale armor, wielding a white sword of magical ice steel or whatever it is. On the other side, shadowswords, grey wraiths, and the King of Winter. And the KoW wields metals which are "dark and strong to fight the cold."

 

[LmL]

I've recently picked up on the idea of swords which shine or glimmer with morning light.  See what you notice about these quotes, the first two from ACOK, the first time we see Robb crowned as the King of Winter / King in the North::

When the guards brought in the captive, Robb called for his sword. Olyvar Frey offered it up hilt first, and her son drew the blade and laid it bare across his knees, a threat plain for all to see. “Your Grace, here is the man you asked for,” announced Ser Robin Ryger, captain of the Tully household guard. “Kneel before the king, Lannister!” Theon Greyjoy shouted. Ser Robin forced the prisoner to his knees.

It’s a threat plain to see, and it’s the exact pose of a King of Winter.  Next, pay attention to his sword:

“Rise, Ser Cleos.” Her son’s voice was not as icy as his father’s would have been, but he did not sound a boy of fifteen either. War had made a man of him before his time. Morning light glimmered faintly against the edge of the steel across his knees. 

The one other time Robb greets someone in this pose, his sword shines as well, though not specifically with morning light:

He remembered Robb Stark as he had last seen him, in his father’s high seat in the Great Hall of Winterfell, a sword naked and shining in his hands. He remembered how the direwolves had come at him out of the shadows, and suddenly he could see them again, snarling and snapping, teeth bared in his face. 

In the first scene, Robb is demanding of Cleos and the Lannisters that they return his father's sword, Ice, a smoke dark Valyrian steel sword which I like to call Black Ice. Robb never gets the sword back - instead it is melted down and split into two new swords, Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail. When Joffrey is presented with WW, we see the morning light again, as "red and black ripples in the steel shimmered in the morning light." The sword of the morning? Black Ice? I made a joke about this in one of my recent podcasts: wearing black is wearing mourning, so to the extent the Black Brothers are swords in the darkness, they are black swords of mourning, ha ha. 

Anyway, there is only one other time in the entire series that a sword glimmers or shimmer with morning light, and again it is a nearly black Valyrian steel sword.  It's the chapter where Lord Commander Jon Snow executes Janos Slynt.  At the open of the chapter, Jon is “watching the play of the morning light across the ripples” of Longclaw's blade in ADWD as he contemplates executing Janos Slynt.  It happens again at the end of that same Jon chapter when he actually executes Janos; “pale morning sunlight ran up and down his blade” as he raises it high to strike the killing blow.  Jon is emulating the executioner role of his father here and swinging a black sword of the morning, furthering the idea that Jon is destined for his father's sword, Black Ice, now called Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail.

Just as the Black Gate is made of white wood, the true sword of the morning might be a black one. Naturally, the ultimate weapon should be some kind of ice & fire unity, which I think the notion of black ice accomplishes quite well, as does the idea of frozen fire. Frozen fire is the black, icy version of fire, just as Ned's sword is a cooled and hardened dragonsword called Ice which is nearly black. I mean, the distance between "frozen fire which is black" and "black ice" is very small, and again I say that both dragonglass and Valyrian steel kill the Others (though the latter is not 100% confirmed in book canon). Thus, the idea of the NW fighting the Others with black weapons which represent cooled and hardened fire is entirely consistent, whether we speak of V steel or obsidian. 

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

I find it amusing that everyone's interpretation of Jon's dream lines up so nicely with their already formed opinion as to Jon's origin.  This really is the Sealord's cat in action, everyone sees what they want to see.

IMO, you have to look at Jon's dream in context with what was happening at the time.  Jon had come off of a wildling battle at the Wall.  He was aided by Stannis and his magical red witch, Melisandre.  Jon knows that the only thing that protects him and the NIght's Watch from the ongoing Game of Thrones being waged around him, is the Night's Watch vow to remain neutral.  Stannis is tempting Jon with giving him Winterfell, a prize he has coveted deep down, even having dreams of killing his father and brother to gain it.

You could argue that his icy black armor represents the Night's Watch and the Wall.  Just like Sansa's armor is her courtesy, Jon's armor is his duty and vow to the Night's Watch and to the Wall.  The fiery red sword represents Stannis and Melisandre, a tool if used could defeat the wildlings, and Others, but is also a source of tremendous temptation, which could give him his heart's desire, Winterfell.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I find it amusing that everyone's interpretation of Jon's dream lines up so nicely with their already formed opinion as to Jon's origin.  This really is the Sealord's cat in action, everyone sees what they want to see.

IMO, you have to look at Jon's dream in context with what was happening at the time.  Jon had come off of a wildling battle at the Wall.  He was aided by Stannis and his magical red witch, Melisandre.  Jon knows that the only thing that protects him and the NIght's Watch from the ongoing Game of Thrones being waged around him, is the Night's Watch vow to remain neutral.  Stannis is tempting Jon with giving him Winterfell, a prize he has coveted deep down, even having dreams of killing his father and brother to gain it.

You could argue that his icy black armor represents the Night's Watch and the Wall.  Just like Sansa's armor is her courtesy, Jon's armor is his duty and vow to the Night's Watch and to the Wall.  The fiery red sword represents Stannis and Melisandre, a tool if used could defeat the wildlings, and Others, but is also a source of tremendous temptation, which could give him his heart's desire, Winterfell.

Exactly. 

If only people would open their eyes they would clearly see the Earth is flat, the Holocaust never happened, and Hillary Clinton is an Alien in disguise.

 

Fucking Sheeples, am I right man?

[Voice]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I find it amusing that everyone's interpretation of Jon's dream lines up so nicely with their already formed opinion as to Jon's origin.  This really is the Sealord's cat in action, everyone sees what they want to see.

IMO, you have to look at Jon's dream in context with what was happening at the time.  Jon had come off of a wildling battle at the Wall.  He was aided by Stannis and his magical red witch, Melisandre.  Jon knows that the only thing that protects him and the NIght's Watch from the ongoing Game of Thrones being waged around him, is the Night's Watch vow to remain neutral.  Stannis is tempting Jon with giving him Winterfell, a prize he has coveted deep down, even having dreams of killing his father and brother to gain it.

You could argue that his icy black armor represents the Night's Watch and the Wall.  Just like Sansa's armor is her courtesy, Jon's armor is his duty and vow to the Night's Watch and to the Wall.  The fiery red sword represents Stannis and Melisandre, a tool if used could defeat the wildlings, and Others, but is also a source of tremendous temptation, which could give him his heart's desire, Winterfell.

 

Hey! I resemble that remark!

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I find it amusing that everyone's interpretation of Jon's dream lines up so nicely with their already formed opinion as to Jon's origin.  This really is the Sealord's cat in action, everyone sees what they want to see.

IMO, you have to look at Jon's dream in context with what was happening at the time.  Jon had come off of a wildling battle at the Wall.  He was aided by Stannis and his magical red witch, Melisandre.  Jon knows that the only thing that protects him and the NIght's Watch from the ongoing Game of Thrones being waged around him, is the Night's Watch vow to remain neutral.  Stannis is tempting Jon with giving him Winterfell, a prize he has coveted deep down, even having dreams of killing his father and brother to gain it.

You could argue that his icy black armor represents the Night's Watch and the Wall.  Just like Sansa's armor is her courtesy, Jon's armor is his duty and vow to the Night's Watch and to the Wall.  The fiery red sword represents Stannis and Melisandre, a tool if used could defeat the wildlings, and Others, but is also a source of tremendous temptation, which could give him his heart's desire, Winterfell.

Har, as to the first paragraph twas ever thus. 

I do like your contextual interpretation of the dream, which does make a lot more sense than trying to shoehorn it into something else.

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I do like your contextual interpretation of the dream, which does make a lot more sense than trying to shoehorn it into something else.

Gods old and new forbid that authors might ever write their characters' dream applying to a broader context.

[Black Crow]

Except when it doesn't fit the reader's desired concept, broad or otherwise.

Frey's straightforward interpretation fits the context far better than any attempt to claim it as a signpost to Jon Targaryen.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Frey's straightforward interpretation fits the context far better than any attempt to claim it as a signpost to Jon Targaryen.

Since Mel is dead wrong and Stannis' red sword is a fake, claiming that the burning sword in Jon's dream symbolizes those two is a huge stretch.

[Lord Varys]

There are prophetic dreams in that story and then there are normal dreams there. A lot of the dreams some people want to shoehorn into the former category work much better in the latter.

Especially Jon's dreams don't seem to me very prophetic. A lot of people think his dreams of Winterfell and the crypts mean something deeper when a normal psychological interpretation of them makes much more sense.