Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 21 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: @Illyrio Mo'Parties I'll touch on the rest of the stuff you say soon but quickly a word on this. I've had a few conversations about this and it all really stems from that early bit of text floating around that GRRM wrote doesn't it which talks about the Others, and the neverborn etc etc and it's prompted many to think that the Others are something we've not seen yet. Ive thought on it loads and I wonder that if GRRM did ever have three tiers to his Ice threat such as the Wights, the White Walkers, and the Others then did he always keep that plan?. Maybe you can help here but I've always had a thought on the AGOT Prologue (back to that again haha). Although it is primarily from Wills POV, GRRM also has his own input for us, such as times where it's not Wills thoughts and he's simply describing the setting and stuff. I'm not an expert on how to break down how books are written and all that but when GRRM writes things like: "The Other slid forward on silent feet." Or "The Other said something in a language that Will did not know." Isnt this GRRM actually describing this being as an "Other" and not Will, isn't GRRM himself actually calling this being an Other?. Therefore the beings that Will Gared and Waymar meet are Infact, the Others?. I may be wrong, I'm no literature expert. What do you think?. Debatable - but I would lean towards it being the actual Other, maybe. Good point... Well, I don't know, actually. GRRM plays it both ways with what you're talking about. Words are generally capitalised and characters seem to know how to say or spell people's names right... but then there's plenty of details that are definitely from a character's perspective. Think of the various mistaken identities. Or how about in AGOT when Arya doesn't know who Varys and Illyrio are, so we don't get their names or anything. In general, if it's in italics, then it's an excerpt from the character's internal monologue: otherwise, it's GRRM describing the character's perspective. But I'm sure - I can't think of any examples - but I'm sure he occasionally breaks that rule when necessary. All of which is to say, it could be GRRM making plain that it's an Other - or it could be just that Will thinks it's an Other. Sorry to be inconclusive. But you're right, I was thinking of that letter or whatever it was re: the multiple tiers of Others. Still, it's a tantalising idea: we spend all this time fearing these monsters, only to realise we haven't even begun to see the real monster. Dun, dun, duuuuuun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 21 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: I don't think it's that the babies grow their whole life as Others through troubled toddler and teenage years to reach adulthood and go visit their mothers to take their brothers away anyway. Personally I dont get that. I agree. We've maybe seen via Qyburn that you can take blood from one person, do some magic, and use it to create a sort of ersatz life out of something dead. Perhaps the Others have something similar going on. I recall an SSM where he mentioned that, when Sam killed Puddles, the obsidian broke the spell that was holding Puddles together. Which makes me think that the Others, as we've seen them, aren't really an organic lifeform at all, but rather just "the cold" taken physical form. Exactly how human children play into that, I don't know. But I do like the idea that the white walkers are just soldier-drones to some greater Other intelligence/s. But I've already mentioned that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 9 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: On the sword hilt again, cool ideas on the reforging etc., you have elevated that hilt to the status of something I'll be keeping an eye out for in the next book/s. Thank you. Sure. One thing I love about the discussion boards is how it helps open our eyes to things we didn't notice. We all focus on or are struck by different lines, or words, or items, and not others, and I have found the boards so helpful in looking at the story more fully. So, about that sword hilt idea. No books with me right now so I am winging it, but didn't Melisandre say at some time that magic is like wielding a sword with no hilt? There is no safe way to hold it? Maybe I am not even close, but it seems familiar. Hell, maybe that was something GRRM said. Maybe there is an actual blade that just needs a hilt, no reforging needed. Maybe that is the real Ice, the Stark sword from long ago that was lost. Maybe there is something special about Waymar's sword that the others were looking for, but it just wasn't quite right. I believe the Royce family and Stark family have common blood at some point. The Royce family words are We Remember, but remember what? Maybe it means something, maybe it is nothing. That is the magic of GRRM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 24 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: Hmm. Wolf-Varamyr ended up in a sort of pack with Summer, didn't he? Where is One-Eye the wolf - is he in the cave with Bran and Summer? Could he attack Bran? Could Bran communicate with him? Could he learn more about his own powers, bust out of his wolf and into something else? Yep your spot on Bran/Summer whooped him and he's now in Summers pack. They do a lot of roaming above land and I think One eye/Varamyr will continue to be in the story. Will he play a bad part?ill be keeping an eye out for that. Will he help Bran with his powers in some way? Interesting idea that. I think in the books to come we will see some really serious Wolf pack action, a time for Wolves indeed. I also think that Bran is going to return to Winterfell by the Black underground river while Summer travels on land, helping as a guide, and gathering the meanest pack ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 44 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: Debatable - but I would lean towards it being the actual Other, maybe. Good point... Well, I don't know, actually. GRRM plays it both ways with what you're talking about. Words are generally capitalised and characters seem to know how to say or spell people's names right... but then there's plenty of details that are definitely from a character's perspective. Think of the various mistaken identities. Or how about in AGOT when Arya doesn't know who Varys and Illyrio are, so we don't get their names or anything. In general, if it's in italics, then it's an excerpt from the character's internal monologue: otherwise, it's GRRM describing the character's perspective. But I'm sure - I can't think of any examples - but I'm sure he occasionally breaks that rule when necessary. All of which is to say, it could be GRRM making plain that it's an Other - or it could be just that Will thinks it's an Other. Sorry to be inconclusive. But you're right, I was thinking of that letter or whatever it was re: the multiple tiers of Others. Still, it's a tantalising idea: we spend all this time fearing these monsters, only to realise we haven't even begun to see the real monster. Dun, dun, duuuuuun! It's cool I'm a tad inconclusive on it myself. And it is a cool idea that there may be terrible things we still haven't seen come out of the far North yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 34 minutes ago, St Daga said: Sure. One thing I love about the discussion boards is how it helps open our eyes to things we didn't notice. We all focus on or are struck by different lines, or words, or items, and not others, and I have found the boards so helpful in looking at the story more fully. So, about that sword hilt idea. No books with me right now so I am winging it, but didn't Melisandre say at some time that magic is like wielding a sword with no hilt? There is no safe way to hold it? Maybe I am not even close, but it seems familiar. Hell, maybe that was something GRRM said. Maybe there is an actual blade that just needs a hilt, no reforging needed. Maybe that is the real Ice, the Stark sword from long ago that was lost. Maybe there is something special about Waymar's sword that the others were looking for, but it just wasn't quite right. I believe the Royce family and Stark family have common blood at some point. The Royce family words are We Remember, but remember what? Maybe it means something, maybe it is nothing. That is the magic of GRRM. These wise words were first uttered by the horned lord I believe but Dalla tells them to Jon, who tells them to Mel. ADWD JON VI: "Dalla told me something once. Val's sister, Mance Rayder's wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it." "A wise woman." Melisandre rose, her red robes stirring in the wind. "A sword without a hilt is still a sword, though, and a sword is a fine thing to have when foes are all about." Hmmm, gets you thinking doesn't it. Ponder all this I will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 And @St Daga. You need never be without the books again while on your travels. a search of Ice and Fire is all you need. https://asearchoficeandfire.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 6 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: These wise words were first uttered by the horned lord I believe but Dalla tells them to Jon, who tells them to Mel. ADWD JON VI: "Dalla told me something once. Val's sister, Mance Rayder's wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it." "A wise woman." Melisandre rose, her red robes stirring in the wind. "A sword without a hilt is still a sword, though, and a sword is a fine thing to have when foes are all about." Yes, this was it. 6 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: You need never be without the books again while on your travels. a search of Ice and Fire is all you need. https://asearchoficeandfire.com/ Thanks! This search function just blew my mind! I need coffee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 17 minutes ago, St Daga said: Yes, this was it. Thanks! This search function just blew my mind! I need coffee! Happy to be of assistance mate. Awesome if your on your phone hitting up the forum on the move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: Happy to be of assistance mate. Awesome if your on your phone hitting up the forum on the move. Yes. It is now living on my home screen on my phone. I can't believe I never knew of this wonderment! Ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Oops, wrong thread. Sorry. Still unusually sick and confused I moved my post to here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 I am going to go back in time a few days, back to the small issue of blood smoking -vs- steaming. Yes, blood steams in the air on many occasions. I checked the search site and there are at least 370 references to smoke/smoking (six for smoke and salt), and guess what, almost all of them are related to fire. So we have blood and fire... and a secret Targ that is about to be re-born. (yes I checked all 370 of them, because yes I need a life) There are only four times in the books where blood is described as "smoking", and each of those times has to do with either a magic incident, or poisoning, so either way the blood is tampered with. Prophecy is in the books, but it is funny that those who don't know about certain prophecies are the ones who are "acting out" the biggest ones. You can't ignore that. Whether it is prophecy, or foretelling, or just a magic eight ball, it exists and we have seen it play out already. I think we, as readers, also see certain things play out that look like prophecy and it is peppered throughout the story with various characters. It seems they are playing out a "junior" version as a set up for readers for when it happens for realzzz- hints for the main characters. It is either this, or George can't tell a story because he only knows three plot lines, tops Waymar waved his sword around like a lunatic. Maybe the Others saw this bold move and then had to test his blood, and as it turns out, Waymar had "normal" blood so the massacre began with no threat the the Others lives. I believe it is possible that "dragonsteel" is what the person they have in their own prophecy will carry that can actually destroy them- no matter what the material or sword name, it belongs to a "dragon". So, the Other noticed the blade and through a series of "tests", realized that Waymar ain't the special snowflake, and they took him out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 On 1/7/2017 at 1:42 AM, The Fattest Leech said: Ok, then I guess you are saying that George is using steam and smoke interchangeably? Yes. This is why TWOW is taking too long. George keeps mixing up having a cup piping hot tea and smoking crack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 30 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: no matter what the material or sword name, it belongs to a "dragon" I think this is a great idea. I love the idea of the power of the wielder being at least as important as the power of the weapon. It is very clear when we talk about Dawn that the right man has to wield it but with a lot of swords (Longclaw for instance) it is mentioned that you need a particular person to wield it. In an odd way I think this is why Oathkeeper or Widow's Wail will never realize their true power until wielded by a Stark -- ala Voldemort trying to wield the elder wand -- and so there is a symbiotic relationship between some heros and their swords. I do think that the use of "dragonsteel" meaning "belongs to a dragon" seems a little ham fisted, but it is one of those things that I think clears a new path to get closer towards a correct understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, YOVMO said: I think this is a great idea. I love the idea of the power of the wielder being at least as important as the power of the weapon. It is very clear when we talk about Dawn that the right man has to wield it but with a lot of swords (Longclaw for instance) it is mentioned that you need a particular person to wield it. In an odd way I think this is why Oathkeeper or Widow's Wail will never realize their true power until wielded by a Stark -- ala Voldemort trying to wield the elder wand -- and so there is a symbiotic relationship between some heros and their swords. I do think that the use of "dragonsteel" meaning "belongs to a dragon" seems a little ham fisted, but it is one of those things that I think clears a new path to get closer towards a correct understanding. I agree with this 8 minutes ago, YOVMO said: Yes. This is why TWOW is taking too long. George keeps mixing up having a cup piping hot tea and smoking crack. I stubbornly can't agree with this I think he is careful with his words in this case because of how distinct the difference is between other blood just doing something else, and the few times it happens with "magic" and the blood only smokes with those instances. That said, I won't comment on the blood smoke anymore because it is quickly turning into another "Booming-gate" debate and I don't want that. And I don't think that is the focus the OP wants in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said: stubbornly can't agree with this I think he is careful with his words in this case because of how distinct the difference is between other blood just doing something else, and the few times it happens with "magic" and the blood only smokes with those instances. Fattest Leech this is my friend sarcasm. Sarcasm, meet the fattest leech. Yes, George knows the difference between tea kettle and free basing crack and yes, yes, yes I believe that every single word (with the exception of Myrrish Swamp and fat pink mast were chosen with the utmost care and thought and if it saw his blood "smoked" there is no reason to think he means it was the condensation steaming off of it because blood is warm and every reason to think that it smoked the way Drogon's wounds smoked in the fighting pits. 1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said: That said, I won't comment on the blood smoke anymore because it is quickly turning into another "Booming-gate" debate and I don't want that. And I don't think that is the focus the OP wants in this thread. I like blood smoke. Forget the philisteams! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, YOVMO said: Fattest Leech this is my friend sarcasm. Sarcasm, meet the fattest leech. I refuse!!! 2 minutes ago, YOVMO said: Yes, George knows the difference between tea kettle and free basing crack and yes, yes, yes I believe that every single word (with the exception of Myrrish Swamp and fat pink I know you hate those descriptions, but they were perfect for the scene. They did what they were supposed to do which was to make you do this 2 minutes ago, YOVMO said: mast were chosen with the utmost care and thought and if it saw his blood "smoked" there is no reason to think he means it was the condensation steaming off of it because blood is warm and every reason to think that it smoked the way Drogon's wounds smoked in the fighting pits. Ugh! Quoter just crapped out on me. Steam is not smoke. Drogon's dragon blood of "fire" makes my point. 2 minutes ago, YOVMO said: I like blood smoke. Forget the philisteams! Me too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Queen Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 10 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: Hey Crazy Cat. These are cool ideas. On VS being too young, I hear ya. What I think may be the case though is that it is maybe not VS as we know it in the story, with all its fancy forging with the forever folding and the spells and such, but simply an early prototype that has what I think is the only important ingredient when it comes to killing Others. Dragonflame forging. Also, remember the ancient timeline is all over the place in the story, stuff like the Andal invasion and the Long Night and all that jazz I believe are not as far spaced apart as we're led to believe. I think we are supposed to figure this out for ourselves. And the books (including TWOIAF) help there. I do like the idea they are looking for an Ice sword like their own but after one glance they would know they had found it, and their behaviour is still very shady even after they have saw it up close, and in battle so I personally shelved that idea, although I'm not dismissing it by any means. And yes of course, Dawn can never ever be set aside or forgotten about. One day I really do mean to throw all my might into researching and scheming on Dawn and House Dayne! Well, the World Book helps put things in context but doesn't do much for the timeline. I still say that Valyrian steel is too easy an answer. Dawn and House Dayne, oh yes. You have to wonder what that oily black naphtha has to do with it, if as I suspect Dawn is of meteoric origin. There is a variant in the Arthurian legends that the Holy Grail is an emerald that fell from Lucifer's crown when he fell from heaven. Dawn always reminded me of that story. The simple answer is: the Others haven't found what they're looking for. The original Ice is probably long gone, unless it's buried with the NK (at Winterfell, how's that for a tale from the crypt?) or another Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 11, 2017 Author Share Posted January 11, 2017 13 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Oops, wrong thread. Sorry. Still unusually sick and confused I moved my post to here. Still struggling TFL. I wish you a speedy recovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 11, 2017 Author Share Posted January 11, 2017 13 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: I am going to go back in time a few days, back to the small issue of blood smoking -vs- steaming. Yes, blood steams in the air on many occasions. I checked the search site and there are at least 370 references to smoke/smoking (six for smoke and salt), and guess what, almost all of them are related to fire. So we have blood and fire... and a secret Targ that is about to be re-born. (yes I checked all 370 of them, because yes I need a life) There are only four times in the books where blood is described as "smoking", and each of those times has to do with either a magic incident, or poisoning, so either way the blood is tampered with. Prophecy is in the books, but it is funny that those who don't know about certain prophecies are the ones who are "acting out" the biggest ones. You can't ignore that. Whether it is prophecy, or foretelling, or just a magic eight ball, it exists and we have seen it play out already. I think we, as readers, also see certain things play out that look like prophecy and it is peppered throughout the story with various characters. It seems they are playing out a "junior" version as a set up for readers for when it happens for realzzz- hints for the main characters. It is either this, or George can't tell a story because he only knows three plot lines, tops Waymar waved his sword around like a lunatic. Maybe the Others saw this bold move and then had to test his blood, and as it turns out, Waymar had "normal" blood so the massacre began with no threat the the Others lives. I believe it is possible that "dragonsteel" is what the person they have in their own prophecy will carry that can actually destroy them- no matter what the material or sword name, it belongs to a "dragon". So, the Other noticed the blade and through a series of "tests", realized that Waymar ain't the special snowflake, and they took him out. You guys can debate steaming and smoking blood til your hearts content, I'm cool with it guys. I'll touch on the other points though. I understand where your going with the whole sword thing TFL, but I must ask. When the legend says they "couldn't stand against it" in regards to Dragonsteel, if it is not the blade and it's make up they couldn't stand against then are you thinking that because the wielder has Targaryen blood, the blood of the Dragon, this is what they couldn't stand against? As in, regardless of the material, whatever it's made from, they couldn't stand against the Targ wielder? Or the wielder with fire blood?. Im having trouble getting that bit. I get that you mean that the blade could be called Dragonsteel as it's a blade but wielded by a "Dragon", a reborn Targ and all that, so does this mean that they simply can't stand against the wielder? Regardless of the blades material. Isnt that strange and implies they would simply melt or run away when approached by such a person - "they couldn't stand against it". Doesnt that quote imply the blade was made of such a material that they actually could not stand against it, as in it just obliterated them on contact or something?. And I'm sorry I must mention again, it is not the blood that prompts anything like what you suggest. Waymar is wounded under the arm and cries out in pain, the blood actually steams and falls Red to the floor. Yes, this prompts the main Other to mock him, but he could simply be saying "I expected more from you boy! Or, you are no match for me!" Or something. The thing is though, this spilling of (and clear identification of what blood he has) prompts absolutely no response from the back up Others. Nothing. They don't laugh along with the leader, they don't mock, they don't actually move one inch. It hasn't effected them one little bit as far as an on page description goes. Now, when the sword finally shatters though. That is a totally different story. That is when your massacre begins, as if some sort of signal was given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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