ravenous reader Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 12 minutes ago, WeaselPie said: I'm not, have a link? 'In Xanadu did Kubla Khan A stately pleasure-dome decree: Where Alph, the sacred river, ran Through caverns measureless to man Down to a sunless sea...' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Another way of thinking of the concept of 'sunless sea' -- the poet Coleridge's line lifted verbatim by GRRM -- is as 'dark sight' ('sunless see')...dark-seeing is greenseeing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 TY! sorry, didn't mean to derail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 1 minute ago, WeaselPie said: TY! sorry, didn't mean to derail How can you be derailing? You're talking about 'under the sea' -- so you're very much in the realm of the underworld, and advancing on the dark heart of the matter -- or what BC likes to refer to as the upriver quest zoning in on the 'Heart of Darkness'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 If Winterfell connected to BR's cave, wouldn't Bran have gone that way instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBlakeney Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 "Not really....I meant that the NK - especially if a Stark (or another family that worshiped the Old Gods) - was influenced/persuaded by the corpse queen to give her his "seed"...meaning, somehow allow HER into the weirnet that he as a representative of this Old Gods family would be a 'guardian' of. He is the personification of the weirwood - by giving her his seed, she became wedded to the trees in the way that Bran did when he ate the seed paste. Obviously this was an abomination that could not be allowed. " - @Pretty Pig (Forgive the formatting, still learning the subtleties of the quote tool) On 1/11/2017 at 11:09 AM, ravenous reader said: Maybe the abomination involved is raising the dead. The greenseer -- the Night's King here -- commits the abomination of animating a corpse by using the magical power of the weirwood. If so, that means the Stark greenseers created the Others. I do however believe that the gift of the 'seed' would entail both the weirwood seed as well as forfeiting his human capacity for procreation (both these connotations are symbolised when Bran falls from the tower, spilling his seed...the kernels of corn...to the ground). Many shamen were castratees or infertile hermaphrodites and other intersex people, by tradition embodying the idea of sacrificing oneself in order to acquire power. This might be totally off base but made me think of the Amethyst Empress/ Bloodstone Emperor story. Listening to the History of Westeros/ @LmL episode about the Great Empire of the Dawn and their speculation that Amethyst Empress loyalists came to Westeros after she was usurped. What if a resurrected Amethyst Empress came as well, or maybe the NK resurrected her and then “wed” her to the trees. Lady Stoneheart, after losing everything, dying, and being resurrected, comes back totally bloodthirsty and obsessed with vengeance. How much more would the rightful ruler of a huge magical empire be obsessed with revenge? Maybe the NK and this “Corpse Queen” created the Others to exact her bloody, icy retribution for being usurped. Maybe the Amethyst Empress/Corpse Queen is still in the weirwood network directing her icy minions. Like Stoneheart, she’s cold and implacable. Could explain a lot about the Others and their motivations. And that’s before we even start thinking about the implications of the Starks and their responsibility/role in all this! Obsessed with her vengeance, she got the NK – a Stark guardian - to ‘wed’ her to the trees and this caused all sorts of havoc. Nice inversion would be Dany’s arc – instead of a Queen (Amethyst Empress) being usurped in the East, coming to Westeros, creating Ice monsters, then leading armies back to have her vengeance, we have a Queen (Daenerys) being usurped in Westeros, going East, creating Fire monsters (dragons), then leading armies back to have her vengeance. To go East you must go West and all that. I like those theories about Dany being Amethyst Empress reborn, adds lots of dimension. I know its risky to start reading too much into the old legends, but it makes sense to me as a lot of people on here have said that all this stuff is connected and not just throwaway world-building. Kinda fun to think about even if its wrong – lots of possibilities especially with the theories some people have about the importance/meaning of the bloodlines. Lots to chew on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBlakeney Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 On 1/11/2017 at 10:57 AM, PrettyPig said: Not really....I meant that the NK - especially if a Stark (or another family that worshiped the Old Gods) - was influenced/persuaded by the corpse queen to give her his "seed"...meaning, somehow allow HER into the weirnet that he as a representative of this Old Gods family would be a 'guardian' of. He is the personification of the weirwood - by giving her his seed, she became wedded to the trees in the way that Bran did when he ate the seed paste. Obviously this was an abomination that could not be allowed. I meant to quote this post and I think I tagged the wrong user! Too many pretty pigs on the forum. My bad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBlakeney Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 3 hours ago, Brad Stark said: If Winterfell connected to BR's cave, wouldn't Bran have gone that way instead? Maybe it has something to do with the Wall's spells/wards preventing or blocking the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 17 minutes ago, LordBlakeney said: Maybe it has something to do with the Wall's spells/wards preventing or blocking the way. If Fran were to end up going over land all the way to Blood Ravens cave, and then returning via an underground route that spit him out at Winterfell, that would be a lot like one of the Narnia books - The Silver Chair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBlakeney Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 17 minutes ago, LmL said: If Fran were to end up going over land all the way to Blood Ravens cave, and then returning via an underground route that spit him out at Winterfell, that would be a lot like one of the Narnia books - The Silver Chair Yes! And the hidden Prince underground who doesn't remember who he is - it takes Eustace and Jill (plus Puddleglum) traveling there to free him. Lots of similarities to Bran and Meera (plus Jojen) in the cave with Bran on the path to discovering a hidden Prince I bet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBlakeney Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 49 minutes ago, LmL said: If Fran were to end up going over land all the way to Blood Ravens cave, and then returning via an underground route that spit him out at Winterfell, that would be a lot like one of the Narnia books - The Silver Chair Plus on the trip to Underland Eustace and Jill pass all those dead/ sleeping animals (and a dreaming King! And Father Time!) who will awake at the end of the world. And of course the main antagonist being the Green Witch with her enslaved army of gnomes found in Underland. The children in Bloodravem's cave remind me of those gnomes. Do you think bloodraven could be analogous to the green witch? I'm not inclined to think so. He would strike me as closer to Father Time underground. I think people jump to thinking bloodraven might be nefarious, but it seems more likely that the weirwoods (as a tool) are being used both for good and evil. In fact the presence of sketchy evil horror sounding stuff around the weirwoods would make sense if the weirwoods were corrupted. Brans job could be to fish out the corruption. Many readers think the Green Witch is the same as Jadis, the White witch from the Lion the witch and the wardrobe. Even though the White witch is killed by Asian in the lion, witch, and wardrobe, it is noted in Prince Caspian by Nikabrik "who ever heard of a witch that really died" if you'll indulge some wild speculation- assuming the stuff I said before about Amethyst Empress maybe being corpse queen wanting icy vengeance- what if when the downfall of the NK occurred she just was forced into the weirwoods? She's a poisonous presence and would be felt underground- maybe that's what the singers in the roots whose mouths move are trying to warn Bran of- not that blood raven is bad but their rest is disturbed because someone is in the weirnet who shouldn't be. This presence underground would be the analogue to the Green Witch from the Silver Chair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 13, 2017 Author Share Posted January 13, 2017 3 hours ago, LmL said: If Bran were to end up going over land all the way to Blood Ravens cave, and then returning via an underground route that spit him out at Winterfell, that would be a lot like one of the Narnia books - The Silver Chair Given the Land of Always Winter connection it may be a very apt suggestion. It is worth noting that while the Black Gate can be used in either direction this isn't always true of Faerie doors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 3 hours ago, LordBlakeney said: Plus on the trip to Underland Eustace and Jill pass all those dead/ sleeping animals (and a dreaming King! And Father Time!) who will awake at the end of the world. And of course the main antagonist being the Green Witch with her enslaved army of gnomes found in Underland. The children in Bloodravem's cave remind me of those gnomes. Do you think bloodraven could be analogous to the green witch? I'm not inclined to think so. He would strike me as closer to Father Time underground. So, this is always a peril of trying to discern where Martin may be pulling from this or that influence. The first thing you do is to try to map it over the story and see what fits... the gnomes seem like a good fit but then underground gnomes are in a lot of stories, so... the idea of Caspian = Jon seems like a good match. But to your point, gender and color is no obstacle - he might simply recognize a story with an underground tunnel and a sorcerer at the end and work from there, with Bloodraven occupying that role, even if he isn't antagonistic as the green witch is. Overall I would place this Silver Chair correlation in the maybe pile; if we see Bran using the tunnels to get back and contacting Jon to tell him RLJ, then it will begin to look stronger. Although I do have to admit the idea of Puddleglum / Marsh people is a good match for the Crannogmen marsh people, save for height. 3 hours ago, LordBlakeney said: I think people jump to thinking bloodraven might be nefarious, but it seems more likely that the weirwoods (as a tool) are being used both for good and evil. In fact the presence of sketchy evil horror sounding stuff around the weirwoods would make sense if the weirwoods were corrupted. Brans job could be to fish out the corruption. I agree and I have speculated a bit about this in the green zombie series (I think you remarked about that earlier). The fact that a fishing weirr is essentially a wooden trap for fish lead to the idea that the weirwoods are trapping someone in there. Those someones would likely be the original humans or green men to enter the weirwoodnet, I suspect, and the Others may well be their escape pods. 3 hours ago, LordBlakeney said: Many readers think the Green Witch is the same as Jadis, the White witch from the Lion the witch and the wardrobe. Even though the White witch is killed by Asian in the lion, witch, and wardrobe, it is noted in Prince Caspian by Nikabrik "who ever heard of a witch that really died" That's fo damn sure! 3 hours ago, LordBlakeney said: if you'll indulge some wild speculation- assuming the stuff I said before about Amethyst Empress maybe being corpse queen wanting icy vengeance- what if when the downfall of the NK occurred she just was forced into the weirwoods? She's a poisonous presence and would be felt underground- maybe that's what the singers in the roots whose mouths move are trying to warn Bran of- not that blood raven is bad but their rest is disturbed because someone is in the weirnet who shouldn't be. This presence underground would be the analogue to the Green Witch from the Silver Chair. Could be, could be. I have a theory about one of the exploding fiery moon meteors lodging in the surviving moon. The moon which exploded to give birth to dragons would have been the "fire moon," while the one which survived - but took shrapnel - would be the ice moon. Thus, you can think about the fire moon meteor that lodged in the ice moon as a bit of Nissa Nissa's ghost. I have found this pattern a bunch of times - it's off topic so I won't go into it here - but the point is that there is some precedent (IMO) for the idea of the corpse of the Amethyst Empress / Nissa Nissa, or perhaps her ghosts or something, becoming a part of the Night's Queen. The thing is, if I am right that Azor Ahai = Bloodstone Emperor, then NN = AE and what we have is AA killing NN, then taking Tiger Woman to wife. We have speculated quite a bit about tiger woman being a cotf or a human - cotf hybrid (cat's eyes leading tot he tiger woman name perhaps). You can see how a greenseer woman might be able to transform into an icy woman who became known as the Corpse Queen. Also in my green zombie series was a discussion of the Barrow Kings, who may descend from Garth. If that's the case, and if Corpse Queen was a daughter of the Barrow King, then that is another clue she might have had greenseer ability. Could she be the one stuck in the weirwoodnet like Jobe form the Lawnmower man? Giving the Others their orders? That's almost too much to hope for. A sick idea for a fantasy novel if George doesn't use it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 8 hours ago, ravenous reader said: Where Alph, the sacred river, ran Deliberately mispronounced by generations of English lit students as "Where Ralph, the sacred river, ran," of course. (I think if I were going to build a pleasure dome, "stately" would not be a major design goal.) 25 minutes ago, Black Crow said: It is worth noting that while the Black Gate can be used in either direction this isn't always true of Faerie doors Yes, that's a good point. I'm reminded a tad of Neil Gaiman's implementations of this idea -- his doors are always two-way in my recollection, and one is even at a town named Wall (!). Gaiman is of course also famous for reminding us that GRRM is not our bitch (a thing few of us need reminding of these days). And he helped usher the excellent Strange & Norrell into existence, and it contains some one-way doors. 8 hours ago, Brad Stark said: If Winterfell connected to BR's cave, wouldn't Bran have gone that way instead? If he knew of the connection, perhaps... though that's an awfully long haul for an underground trek through unfamiliar passages -- hundreds of miles. If you mean you're skeptical of such a connection, I am too. We might also ask "If BR wants to summon Bran to his cave, far far to the north, and Bran is remarkably important to BR, surely BR would take steps to protect Bran along the way, if that was within his power?" Perhaps he did... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBlakeney Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 2 hours ago, Black Crow said: Given the Land of Always Winter connection it may be a very apt suggestion. It is worth noting that while the Black Gate can be used in either direction this isn't always true of Faerie doors Didn't think about that - I wonder what's on the other side of the gate? Another face? What about it being a two-way door is worth noting? I'm sure nearly everyone on here is familiar with the Chronicles of Narnia - fun to think about parallels between a Night's Queen and the White Witch. Powerful sorceress from another world tries to become immortal and turns icy, kept at bay in the far north by a magic tree, once the tree dies she sweeps down and covers the land in Winter for a hundred years (a "winter that lasted a generation")! Kinda neat to keep the similarities in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBlakeney Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 2 hours ago, LmL said: Overall I would place this Silver Chair correlation in the maybe pile; if we see Bran using the tunnels to get back and contacting Jon to tell him RLJ, then it will begin to look stronger. Although I do have to admit the idea of Puddleglum / Marsh people is a good match for the Crannogmen marsh people, save for height. I agree. Making a 1:1 connection with other stories or myths runs a lot of risks. Don't want to get too bogged down in semantics that you miss the big picture, especially when the story weaves together so many separate myths and influences. Mentioning the silver chair just kind of fired my imagination. And similarities like marshy Puddleglum and marshy Reeds excites me. 2 hours ago, LmL said: I agree and I have speculated a bit about this in the green zombie series (I think you remarked about that earlier). The fact that a fishing weirr is essentially a wooden trap for fish lead to the idea that the weirwoods are trapping someone in there. Those someones would likely be the original humans or green men to enter the weirwoodnet, I suspect, and the Others may well be their escape pods. That series is definitely what I'm thinking of - I think I even made an inadvertent pun about Bran "fishing" out corruption. Those podcasts just leave me wanting more. I've just read a lot of people theorizing that Bloodraven is a bad guy and I don't find any of the arguments very convincing. Of course those aren't mutually exclusive ideas, and I'm not as studied up on all this as many of you. 2 hours ago, LmL said: Could be, could be. I have a theory about one of the exploding fiery moon meteors lodging in the surviving moon. The moon which exploded to give birth to dragons would have been the "fire moon," while the one which survived - but took shrapnel - would be the ice moon. Thus, you can think about the fire moon meteor that lodged in the ice moon as a bit of Nissa Nissa's ghost. I have found this pattern a bunch of times - it's off topic so I won't go into it here - but the point is that there is some precedent (IMO) for the idea of the corpse of the Amethyst Empress / Nissa Nissa, or perhaps her ghosts or something, becoming a part of the Night's Queen. I think I've read up on this in one of your other posts - is it weird to creep on people's profiles and read most everything they post? Because I'm definitely guilty of that from even before I signed up for an account here... 2 hours ago, LmL said: The thing is, if I am right that Azor Ahai = Bloodstone Emperor, then NN = AE and what we have is AA killing NN, then taking Tiger Woman to wife. We have speculated quite a bit about tiger woman being a cotf or a human - cotf hybrid (cat's eyes leading tot he tiger woman name perhaps). You can see how a greenseer woman might be able to transform into an icy woman who became known as the Corpse Queen. That makes a lot of sense to me. Interesting that you mention he killed Nissa Nissa first then married Tiger Woman. A lot of the speculation I've read has suggested maybe Tiger Woman is Nissa Nissa or something to that effect. Do you think they are separate people/entities? Not to get too tied down in interpreting. Just hadn't heard it phrased like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 7 hours ago, LordBlakeney said: maybe that's what the singers in the roots whose mouths move are trying to warn Bran of- not that blood raven is bad but their rest is disturbed because someone is in the weirnet who shouldn't be. If Craster giving his male sons "to the wood" is the same thing as feeding them to the weirwoods, is it possible that anyone can offer blood sacrifice and create a white walker? Would the godhead or greenseers create for anyone willing to give them blood? I don't expect to be surprised with an as yet undisclosed entity at work. It'll have to be someone or something we've already learned about. What seems more likely is that a character or characters will turn out to be something completely different than we have been led to believe. If we go with the idea that greenseers are dead servants, then Bloodraven is a servant and not a godlike creature. Maybe he was lured in believing he would have the power to manipulate Westeros? He was a Targaryen loyalist that was sent to the Wall for protecting the Targaryen throne from potential usurpers. Confined to the Wall he was cut off and restricted. The Children could have lured him with promises that he would be able to have influence again. But wouldn't it be evidence that he really doesn't have that power since Robert overthrew Aerys? Maybe Bloodraven can only do what the Children want him to do? Now Bran is being lured into the weirwood trap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBlakeney Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: If Craster giving his male sons "to the wood" is the same thing as feeding them to the weirwoods, is it possible that anyone can offer blood sacrifice and create a white walker? Would the godhead or greenseers create for anyone willing to give them blood? I feel like this is kind of off the mark... Craster isn't creating white walkers. His sons might be a necessary component in their creation (if that's even what is actually happening with his babies) but the white walkers don't serve him. And I don't see any evidence that anyone can create white walkers. All hints are that it must require really powerful magic and sacrifice. And regardless of the motivations behind the Others, there's no indication that jumps out that multiple people are creating/controlling white walkers. Viewing the weirwoods as a kind of vending machine that with correct change (a sacrifice) will pop out a white walker seems a little out there. Is there something I'm missing? 4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: I don't expect to be surprised with an as yet undisclosed entity at work. It'll have to be someone or something we've already learned about. What seems more likely is that a character or characters will turn out to be something completely different than we have been led to believe. I agree to an extent. I don't think anyone's suggesting its a completely undisclosed entity creating/animating the Others and wights. But their origins are in legend and it makes sense like many people have said that these legends are twisted and half-forgotten. I think there is plenty of stuff, characters (maybe ancient ancestors of current characters) and motivations still to be revealed. 4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: If we go with the idea that greenseers are dead servants, then Bloodraven is a servant and not a godlike creature. Maybe he was lured in believing he would have the power to manipulate Westeros? He was a Targaryen loyalist that was sent to the Wall for protecting the Targaryen throne from potential usurpers. Confined to the Wall he was cut off and restricted. The Children could have lured him with promises that he would be able to have influence again. But wouldn't it be evidence that he really doesn't have that power since Robert overthrew Aerys? Maybe Bloodraven can only do what the Children want him to do? Now Bran is being lured into the weirwood trap. Here is where the jump seems to be a stretch. It seems like you're trying to make the Children the bad guys, manipulating Bloodraven and Bran and Jojen and trapping them. That sounds to me like a really bad case of trying to force a square peg in a round hole. Maybe that will be the case, it just doesn't fit thematically what I've read. Too many "Bloodraven is bad" theories lean real heavily on Dunk and Egg stories. But trying to force this backstory into the narrative action of ASOIAF to explain ASOIAF plot points is wrong I think. They are separate stories. If Bloodraven's backstory was so important, Martin would bring it up in the book, not leave clues in other books. It's a rich backstory, but this guy is different after being hooked up to the trees for so long. He's not playing the game of thrones anymore. He's transcended that. All evidence is that Bran is a protagonist, the children are helping him, and Bloodraven is helping him. Bloodraven's character arc from the Dunk and Egg stories is over. Big evidence for me that Bloodraven and co are on Bran's side are the people in the books who are willing to trust Bloodraven and his minions. I trust Jojen Reed, and Jojen Reed seems convinced Bran needs Bloodraven's help and is willing to trust him and Coldhands. I trust Sam, and Sam trusts Coldhands. If there is a grey area with regards to Bloodraven's motivations, I think it will be waaay more complicated and nuanced than "Bloodraven lured Bran to the cave so the trees could feast on his life force." This journey and time in the cave was a necessary step in Bran's character arc to develop him for whatever task he has in the end game, and he will be stronger for his time with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I've always looked at the idea of the CotF converting a few humans to seeing their side of things - wedding them to the trees - as attempting to gain an ally on the human side. There's that line about taming a wolf and turning it into your guard dog, that's what Bloodraven would be for the CotF, and all other greenseers too. I don't tend to think that the children are trapping greenseers out of pure malevolence or even self interest - I do think that both BR and the children believe they are serving the greater good. I think the best questions have to do with what do they know, and how does it shape their motivations? The fishing weir is pretty much just for trapping fish to eat, simple as that. They can also be used to regulate the flow of the river though, so it's something of a dam and a trap it seems. My other questions revolve around asking who the first greenseers were that may have been trapped inside the weirwood net. Understanding who they were might give us a clue about why they were trapped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 @LordBlakeney, I would somewhat disagree with what you're saying about Dunk & Egg. I think that all of the information in Dunk & egg is actually quite important to the main series, and I would make the same claim about the World of Ice and Fire. If Martin wrote it, then we need to study it. I have found too much important information and too many symbolic metaphors in those "side projects" to believe otherwise. You can still understand the basics of the story without reading Dunk & egg, but reading the stories will inform you about the main series, and about bloodraven in particular. I agree with you however that Bloodraven is not some evil vampire wearing brand to his cave so he can steal his life force. I agree that doesn't fit with the narrative of the books at all. Rather I think bloodraven has always been set up as a machiavellian, someone who's willing to do dishonorable things to serve the greater good, and that's a theme that is well-developed and Jon's storyline, as well as Ned's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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