Heresy 195 and the Mists of Time

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't know where you are going with Moat Caillin, unless you assumed the first men couldn't build it.  Some of the most impressive stone work in our world  (Pyramids,  Stonehenge) were built by pre iron civilization, and this makes even more sense in a world magic is used to build buildings.  I just assumed the First Men built it, or it could be even before them.

Where I'm going is pointing out that we know nothing about who built it or when. Not even Bob the Builder was seemingly involved; yet it lies in ruins and seemingly always has been ruined in the memory of man.

What I'm suggesting is not that it wasn't built by the First Men - they may well have done - but rather that given the anomalies and lack of history, it was built before the Long Night and destroyed with the other kingdoms of that time. 

[LynnS]

What? Page 20 already? 

 

[Brad Stark]

While on timelines,  what about Coldhands?  I was thinking about what we said about there being no evidence for Others since The Long Night before 296AC or so.  "They killed him long ago."

Obviously the questions are who are "they" and how "long ago"?  If "they" are the Others, then they were around when Coldhands died, which I assumed was BR's time.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

While on timelines,  what about Coldhands?  I was thinking about what we said about there being no evidence for Others since The Long Night before 296AC or so.  "They killed him long ago."

Obviously the questions are who are "they" and how "long ago"?  If "they" are the Others, then they were around when Coldhands died, which I assumed was BR's time.

Indeed, what does long ago mean to the CotF.  Leaf has been around for at least 200 years.  How long do they live, what is long ago to them.  I've always found it peculiar that Coldhands is most concerned about avoiding or not attracting those who don't leave any tracks in the snow, in other words, the White Walkers.  I get the sense that when they reach the BR's cave he's very anxious about whether anyone can see anything before proceeding. I think he's more concerned about white shadows than wights at that point.   So perhaps they are the ones who killed him long ago.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 10:46 AM, Feather Crystal said:

There's no reason to believe that the black barked trees that produce shade of the evening are corrupted weirwoods. They are their own type of tree, although no name is given it could be either ironwood or ebony. The door on the House of Black and White are made of two kinds of wood: white weirwood and black ebony.

 

On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 3:40 PM, hiemal said:

I agree that there is no compelling reason for anyone to believe as I do, but I find simplifying the magical flora from two either alien or magically altered species of flora (one with white bark, red leaves, and mind-altering sap and the other with black bark, blue leaves, and mind-altering sap) to only one species with two variants a worthy goal and that is what tinfoil is for, after all, making connections which are satisfyingly crazy but retain explanatory  power.

 

Heimal,

I am siding with your school of thought and believe one is a corruption of the other.  Who is to say that the weirwoods are not a corruption of the the Shade trees?  Other than having black bark and Euron drinking the crap out of the stuff is the Shade tree lore and symbolism thrown out there any worse than the weirwoods themselves?.  People used to hang entrails off weirwoods back in the day.  I see two different cultures with the undying and the greenseers extending their lives through the manipulation of the magical properties of these trees.  One could possibly be a corruption of the other.

Also, side note.  I have been thinking about the idea of the unreliable narrator when it comes to characters describing items as ebony.  Most of the characters have not see a Shade tree and even those who have seen a Shade tree still might not be able to distinguish one black wood apart from another.  I am thinking the house of black and white, the HotU and Danny's bench/throne or any time you see weirwood paired with ebony could instead be an unknown black type wood.

[The Dragon has three heads]

On 26/02/2017 at 10:19 AM, Black Crow said:

I don't think that the detail will matter one way or the other if they're all dead and gone. I think that what matters is that structures like Moat Caillin don't fit into the timeline we've been told and instead point to a lost pre-Winter civilisation. Where it may matter is in the realisation that if it was indeed destroyed in or rather by the Long Night, then the same is going to happen again as Winter closes in, unless it can somehow be averted.

Yeah it's like the Moat is the smoking gun.

Here was once something mighty and it was ruined by...something.  

The wooden Keep was probably just first men built, but before that it could have been a lot more.  A first line of defense against...something? or a structure of domination for...someone.

I would also like to think these Pre first men were GEOTD of some stripe.  Messing with the local DNA...

maybe that's just what they want me too think...  I'd very disappointed if that whole angle of the GEOTD was 'world building'.

 

 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, The Dragon has three heads said:

Yeah it's like the Moat is the smoking gun.

Here was once something mighty and it was ruined by...something.  

The wooden Keep was probably just first men built, but before that it could have been a lot more.  A first line of defense against...something? or a structure of domination for...someone.

I would also like to think these Pre first men were GEOTD of some stripe.  Messing with the local DNA...

maybe that's just what they want me too think...  I'd very disappointed if that whole angle of the GEOTD was 'world building'.

 

 

GEOTD ?

[Brad Stark]

Conventional thinking is Moat was built to defend The North from invasion from the south, it is strategically located to do so.  It could have been built by the Children as a defense against the First Men or by The First Men as a defense against the Andals.  The age seems more in line with the former,  but giant basalt blocks seems more something men would build.

We have no idea how old it is, but 3 towers of 20 something still stand.  I'd say that eliminates anything Post Conquest, as people would remember a whole unruined fortress like Harrenhal.  In our world,  that would almost certainly eliminate any chance of it being near the 10,000 year age claimed,  standing towers might be repaired and could conviably be that old, but all traces of a ruined tower would be gone in 1000 years.  However I would give more leeway to magical fictional construction.

Nothing about Moat seems out of place with the accepted timelines and facts we were given. 

What strikes me is how different it is from other construction deemed to be this old.  Winterfell and The Fist are crude constructions.  Moat was a much more refined fortress similar to newer buildings.  So it could be a lot newer than we are told,  or built by someone other than the First Men,  or maybe Winterfell and The Fist simply weren't planned to be around for a long time. 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, The Dragon has three heads said:

Yeah it's like the Moat is the smoking gun.

Here was once something mighty and it was ruined by...something.  

The wooden Keep was probably just first men built, but before that it could have been a lot more.  A first line of defense against...something? or a structure of domination for...someone.

The wooden keep I suspect was not the "original" but something built by the First Men in the ruins

What I also think is significant in this line of thought is the Children's Tower and the tradition that the three-fingered tree-huggers called down the Hammer of the Waters from there.

I don't see that as being literally true. A massive stone fortress really isn't their style. However it does suggest that so far as 1189 goes, it is very old indeed and goes beyond the memory of man.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

9 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The wooden keep I suspect was not the "original" but something built by the First Men in the ruins

What I also think is significant in this line of thought is the Children's Tower and the tradition that the three-fingered tree-huggers called down the Hammer of the Waters from there.

I don't see that as being literally true. A massive stone fortress really isn't their style. However it does suggest that so far as 1189 goes, it is very old indeed and goes beyond the memory of man.

I believe the Children's Tower suggests an alignment of the First Men with the CotF even during the times of the Hammer of the Waters.  The maesters say the Hammer was largely unsuccessful.  But what if it wasn't?  Arm of Dorne aside, the majority of the symbolism we see with the Hammer of the waters is among the Ironborn.  Additionally, if you look at a map, it seems like a ton of damage was done to the Neck and the Iron Islands.  Moat Cailin is right off the Neck.  It doesn't make sense for them to focus such destruction right upon themselves does it?  What if the motives for the Hammer was to decimate and separate the Ironborn?  Just a thought.

[PrettyPig]

On 2/23/2017 at 4:40 AM, LynnS said:

That's interesting because the Black Gate is essentially a face hung on a wall and where have we seen that before?  It glows with the light of the moon; so we could call it a 'moon door'; the same motif on the doors of the House of Black and White. 

 

On 2/22/2017 at 5:34 AM, Feather Crystal said:

My current thought about the magical Black Gate is that it offers protection when entering or exiting the underworld. It must have some significance if the door itself asks "who are you?" before opening. 

Note also the connection between not only the color scheme and symbology, but the question itself:  "Who are you?"

The Faceless Men shed all vestiges of their past individual lives and become No One.   When you think about it, so do the men of the Night's Watch. 

"No one" is really an all-encompassing term that can also mean "everyone" - when you have no base identity, you can assume multiple different ones....somewhat similar to the following, which could also be viewed as all-encompassing:   "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."   

In other words, the old part of the NW oath is intended to confirm to the Black Gate (the way Arya and other acolytes intend to confirm to the Kindly Man) that the person uttering it serves the realm by acting as many while simultaneously being sans personal identity.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Crowfood's daughter said:

I believe the Children's Tower suggests an alignment of the First Men with the CotF even during the times of the Hammer of the Waters.  The maesters say the Hammer was largely unsuccessful.  But what if it wasn't?  Arm of Dorne aside, the majority of the symbolism we see with the Hammer of the waters is among the Ironborn.  Additionally, if you look at a map, it seems like a ton of damage was done to the Neck and the Iron Islands.  Moat Cailin is right off the Neck.  It doesn't make sense for them to focus such destruction right upon themselves does it?  What if the motives for the Hammer was to decimate and separate the Ironborn?  Just a thought.

I think that the point here is that we simply don't know. I'm not convinced it can be taken as evidence of any sort of alliance directed against the Ironborn or any other particular grouping of First Men, and as I said I don't really see the tree-huggers standing on the top of a castle tower to work their magic. What I do think is important is that the legend associates it [and the destruction of the castle?] with the pre-Winter past rather than post-Winter history.

On a similar note the High Tower at Oldtown has a black basalt base and is associated with a battle, yet not even the maesters know its history

[Crowfood's Daughter]

35 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

 

On a similar note the High Tower at Oldtown has a black basalt base and is associated with a battle, yet not even the maesters know its history

black fused stone I had thought.  Where did you get the basalt description from?

[LynnS]

36 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think that the point here is that we simply don't know. I'm not convinced it can be taken as evidence of any sort of alliance directed against the Ironborn or any other particular grouping of First Men, and as I said I don't really see the tree-huggers standing on the top of a castle tower to work their magic. What I do think is important is that the legend associates it [and the destruction of the castle?] with the pre-Winter past rather than post-Winter history.

On a similar note the High Tower at Oldtown has a black basalt base and is associated with a battle, yet not even the maesters know its history

Indeed.  The question for which Arya is constantly asked in the HoB&W.  Also interesting is that both Jon and Sam repeat the words of the oath in their heads at various times; like an ear worm.  And going back to Moat Cailin, The Gatehouse Tower with a tree growing on it's north face sprouting from between the rocks, hung with ropey white ghost skins also calls to mind the Night Fort and the Night Watch as well as the Faceless Men motif.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VIII

Just beyond, through the mists, she glimpsed the walls and towers of Moat Cailin … or what remained of them. Immense blocks of black basalt, each as large as a crofter's cottage, lay scattered and tumbled like a child's wooden blocks, half-sunk in the soft boggy soil. Nothing else remained of a curtain wall that had once stood as high as Winterfell's. The wooden keep was gone entirely, rotted away a thousand years past, with not so much as a timber to mark where it had stood. All that was left of the great stronghold of the First Men were three towers … three where there had once been twenty, if the taletellers could be believed.

 

The Gatehouse Tower looked sound enough, and even boasted a few feet of standing wall to either side of it. The Drunkard's Tower, off in the bog where the south and west walls had once met, leaned like a man about to spew a bellyful of wine into the gutter. And the tall, slender Children's Tower, where legend said the children of the forest had once called upon their nameless gods to send the hammer of the waters, had lost half its crown. It looked as if some great beast had taken a bite out of the crenellations along the tower top, and spit the rubble across the bog. All three towers were green with moss. A tree was growing out between the stones on the north side of the Gatehouse Tower, its gnarled limbs festooned with ropy white blankets of ghostskin.

 

"Gods have mercy," Ser Brynden exclaimed when he saw what lay before them. "This is Moat Cailin? It's no more than a—"

 

"—death trap," Catelyn finished. "I know how it looks, Uncle. I thought the same the first time I saw it, but Ned assured me that this ruin is more formidable than it seems. The three surviving towers command the causeway from all sides, and any enemy must pass between them. The bogs here are impenetrable, full of quicksands and suckholes and teeming with snakes. To assault any of the towers, an army would need to wade through waist-deep black muck, cross a moat full of lizard-lions, and scale walls slimy with moss, all the while exposing themselves to fire from archers in the other towers." She gave her uncle a grim smile. "And when night falls, there are said to be ghosts, cold vengeful spirits of the north who hunger for southron blood."

 

[Black Crow]

I've always been intrigued by those "ghosts, the cold vengeful spirits of the north who hunger for southron blood"

Do they have eyes, blue as stars?

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Crowfood's daughter said:

black fused stone I had thought.  Where did you get the basalt description from?

The black stone when we encounter it elsewhere is referred to as basalt. There may not be a specific reference in this case but we seem to be given the impression that there's a common origin.

[Brad Stark]

I get the impression some of the black stone has a common origin, but there difference.   Some is oily, some has an evil, wrong feeling, elaborately carved, fused, rough cut, etc. 

[Crowfood's Daughter]

16 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The black stone when we encounter it elsewhere is referred to as basalt. There may not be a specific reference in this case but we seem to be given the impression that there's a common origin.

so you are saying dragonstone, the walls of volantis and dragonstone are likewise black basalt?  Sure, it is possible, but I just don't see anything other than it being a material of moat cailin to suggest the dragonlords used black basalt.  Yours is probably a pretty decent bet since it is most likely a common material though.  

[Black Crow]

28 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I get the impression some of the black stone has a common origin, but there difference.   Some is oily, some has an evil, wrong feeling, elaborately carved, fused, rough cut, etc. 

Well... it aint what you've got... its what you do with it 

[Black Crow]

And with that, I reckon its time for Heresy 196. See you over there.