Why so many greenseers?

[Sea Dragon]

Hi guys. Long time lurker, first time poster. First I want to say that I love following along with some of these threads. You guys really opened my eyes to lots of story information I read right over. There is one thing that I see being said on here over and over and I just don't remember reading it in the books. There seems to be a lot of talk about so many more people being greenseers even though the three eyed crow tells Bran one is born hardly ever, or someting like that. Sorry, I don't have the books with me to quote from as I see other people do. I am getting ready to move.

I guess my question is why so many greenseers if they are supposed to be rare?

[Arya_Stupid!]

I know that some consider Euron to be a previous potential greenseer, who was 'tested' like Bran (by Bloodraven - hence Euron's personal Crow's Eye sigil) and failed or defected or something.

also i recall from TPATQ that Daemon One Eye's lover Alys (Alys Rivers i think) seemed to have some of the same types of 'seeing' abilities. Not really identical to Brans experience of his powers though. She could see things in the fires like Mel, and in Mists as well.

 

i don't really recall any other potentials aside from Jojen, but i could be forgetting some. As to the question you pose, why so many if they are so rare? I would say the same question applies to wargs and skinchangers as well, and yet we have an entire generation of Starks who have some level of the gift in the novels.

My thought is, as with the dragons growing weaker with every generation born, as the magic in the world weakened. So to, did the lines that carried those special abilities fade.  Enter GOT and something has caused the magic to begin building again, and then these magical skills (dragon taming/skinchanging/greenseeing) become more and more prevelant in the lines that would have always had the abilities in their blood.

just my thoughts, hope it helps Sea Dragon

[Lost Umber]

32 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

Hi guys. Long time lurker, first time poster. First I want to say that I love following along with some of these threads. You guys really opened my eyes to lots of story information I read right over. There is one thing that I see being said on here over and over and I just don't remember reading it in the books. There seems to be a lot of talk about so many more people being greenseers even though the three eyed crow tells Bran one is born hardly ever, or someting like that. Sorry, I don't have the books with me to quote from as I see other people do. I am getting ready to move.

I guess my question is why so many greenseers if they are supposed to be rare?

Welcome to the forums. Aside from Bloodraven and Bran, I can't think of any greenseers. 

Jojen Reed has greendreams which allows him to see things which are open to interpretation, kind of like Mel's visions in the fires. 

There are allusions to Euron possibly having the gift, but it wasn't strong enough, or at least he wasn't able to 'fly'. IIRC Brans dreams of other failed greenseers crashed on the rocks. 

So... two known greenseers in about 60 years in all of Westeros. Seems pretty rare. 

[Sea Dragon]

20 minutes ago, Arya_Stupid! said:

I know that some consider Euron to be a previous potential greenseer, who was 'tested' like Bran (by Bloodraven - hence Euron's personal Crow's Eye sigil) and failed or defected or something.

also i recall from TPATQ that Daemon One Eye's lover Alys (Alys Rivers i think) seemed to have some of the same types of 'seeing' abilities. Not really identical to Brans experience of his powers though. She could see things in the fires like Mel, and in Mists as well.

 

i don't really recall any other potentials aside from Jojen, but i could be forgetting some. As to the question you pose, why so many if they are so rare? I would say the same question applies to wargs and skinchangers as well, and yet we have an entire generation of Starks who have some level of the gift in the novels.

My thought is, as with the dragons growing weaker with every generation born, as the magic in the world weakened. So to, did the lines that carried those special abilities fade.  Enter GOT and something has caused the magic to begin building again, and then these magical skills (dragon taming/skinchanging/greenseeing) become more and more prevelant in the lines that would have always had the abilities in their blood.

just my thoughts, hope it helps Sea Dragon

Wow. thanks for the reply. I never considered the magic part. That was a good call.

I agree with some of the known greenseers. I was thinking about the other ones I have seen mentioned like Howland, or the Ghost of High Heart or even someone in Essos.

I agree that Euron could possibly a greenseer though.

[Sea Dragon]

5 minutes ago, Lost Umber said:

Welcome to the forums. Aside from Bloodraven and Bran, I can't think of any greenseers. 

Jojen Reed has greendreams which allows him to see things which are open to interpretation, kind of like Mel's visions in the fires. 

There are allusions to Euron possibly having the gift, but it wasn't strong enough, or at least he wasn't able to 'fly'. IIRC Brans dreams of other failed greenseers crashed on the rocks. 

So... two known greenseers in about 60 years in all of Westeros. Seems pretty rare. 

Hey, thanks for getting back to me. I am not sure how to do the replies to two people at the same time yet, but I wanted to say I think I agree that Euron could be a greenseer. That chapter of his was way crazy.

I agree that just two greenseers in 60 years is pretty rare. There seem to be a lot more greenseers that other posters keep finding that I guess I missed in the books. To be fair, I have read the books only about one a half times, so I could have missed some details.

[Arya_Stupid!]

17 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

Wow. thanks for the reply. I never considered the magic part. That was a good call.

I agree with some of the known greenseers. I was thinking about the other ones I have seen mentioned like Howland, or the Ghost of High Heart or even someone in Essos.

I agree that Euron could possibly a greenseer though.

Ah, i knew I here was someone else.

The Ghost of High Heart, IMO, is a green Dreamer, like Jojen. They have no control over what they are shown, and they always come true. The Ghost's dreams seem more literal/sigil based, while Jojens dreams seem to have a more metaphorical quality to them.

Greenseers like Bran and Bloodraven can do more in the waking, they 'wed' the trees to see more clearly.

 

Then, there are the Glass Candles, and the Red Priests with their fires, Maegy the Frog and her 'seeing' of Cersei and Mellaria's futures with blood magic, and the potential for prohetic dreams when imbibing the Shade of the Evening. And one of the most famous prophecies in the books 'the Doom' was from a Dragon Dreamer. 

There are many many types of dreams and dreamers, prophets and prophecies. I know you were just asking about Greenseers, but, in my mind some of them could be 'mis-filed' under the wrong heading. Whether from in book characters misunderstanding or denial, or our own. Definitely worth a closer look anyhow.

i know both RadioWesteros and History of Westeros podcasts have done episodes on dreams and prophecies. They are both really informative and well researched! Check them out if you're able.

[Sea Dragon]

22 minutes ago, Arya_Stupid! said:

Ah, i knew I here was someone else.

The Ghost of High Heart, IMO, is a green Dreamer, like Jojen. They have no control over what they are shown, and they always come true. The Ghost's dreams seem more literal/sigil based, while Jojens dreams seem to have a more metaphorical quality to them.

Greenseers like Bran and Bloodraven can do more in the waking, they 'wed' the trees to see more clearly.

 

Then, there are the Glass Candles, and the Red Priests with their fires, Maegy the Frog and her 'seeing' of Cersei and Mellaria's futures with blood magic, and the potential for prohetic dreams when imbibing the Shade of the Evening. And one of the most famous prophecies in the books 'the Doom' was from a Dragon Dreamer. 

There are many many types of dreams and dreamers, prophets and prophecies. I know you were just asking about Greenseers, but, in my mind some of them could be 'mis-filed' under the wrong heading. Whether from in book characters misunderstanding or denial, or our own. Definitely worth a closer look anyhow.

i know both RadioWesteros and History of Westeros podcasts have done episodes on dreams and prophecies. They are both really informative and well researched! Check them out if you're able.

Greendreamers makes better sense to me for some of these people. Thanks. I guess it the the wait for Winds of Winter that has some people looking at some mixed up clues and that is where the mis-filed happens. Good catch, Thanks again.

I have listened to one Radio Westeros cast. I would like to catch up on the other soon.

[Arya_Stupid!]

1 hour ago, Sea Dragon said:

Greendreamers makes better sense to me for some of these people. Thanks. I guess it the the wait for Winds of Winter that has some people looking at some mixed up clues and that is where the mis-filed happens. Good catch, Thanks again.

I have listened to one Radio Westeros cast. I would like to catch up on the other soon.

Yeah, this wait is making conspiracy theorists of us all, Lol. Happy to help and discuss the discrepancies with you though Sea Dragon. Cheers.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Welcome to the forums! To answer your OP, I think the main reason you see a lot of these threads lately is that the info in TWOIAF provides clues that some of the characters mentioned from the Dawn Age and Age of Heroes may have been greenseers, like Garth Greenhand for instance. Personally (and I might be the only person who believes this) my theory is that every single weirwood is connected to a living greenseer, in the same fashion that we find Bloodraven physically connected to a weirwood in ADWD, and this is what makes the leaves red and the sap look like blood (because it is blood). And yes, this would imply that greenseers are probably born more often than we are led to believe, but it's hard to say without more information on the exact population of the COTF over time.

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

3 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

Sorry, I don't have the books with me to quote from as I see other people do. I am getting ready to move.

in case you are unaware of its existence, check out https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

[kissdbyfire]

@Sea Dragon, welcome to the forums!

We have, as of the end of ADwD, two known and confirmed greenseers: Bloodraven and Bran. There might be more, or not. 

This is what BR tells Bran in Dance, Bran III:

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer."

"I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

Bran did not understand, so he asked the Reeds. "Do you like to read books, Bran?" Jojen asked him.

"Some books. I like the fighting stories. My sister Sansa likes the kissing stories, but those are stupid."

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies," said Jojen. "The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood."

Oh, and to quote more than one post, just click on the "+" to the left of the "quote" function at the bottom of the post! 

 

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

I was thinking about the other ones I have seen mentioned like Howland, or the Ghost of High Heart or even someone in Essos.

When Bran asks whether the "little crannogman" (Howland Reed) has dreams like Jojen, Meera says explicitly he had not. She then continues to explain that HR knew crannog magic of water and earth, and went to the isles to learn more and other magic. If he has no green dreams, he is not a greenseer since a greenseer is a skinchanger who has green dreams. It appears that HR is a magician, a wizard.

GoHH has green dreams and red eyes, but there is no indication that she is a skinchanger. She might be though. We don't know that. Personally I doubt it. I don't consider her a verified greenseer, only a verified green dreamer. Some people think she might be CoTF, because she's so small, but Arya only remarks on the fact that she has red eyes, not cat-like eyes like the CoTF. She seems to have more physical affiliation with the crannogmen. We don't know whether CoTF in the wierdwood thrones at BR's cave are actual greenseers. Maybe they're all green dreamers and CotF green dreamers can still hook up on the weirnet, but would be incapable to skinchange animals. Or maybe "greenseer" is reserved as a term for humans. I'm not yet sure whether George himself had decided on that yet at the time of writing aDwD.

Anyhow, many do mistakenly call HR a greenseer, but Meera's statements make clear he is not. And the claim for GoHH is just that - a speculative claim. And a lot has to do with people mixig up "green dreaming" with "green seeing".

 

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

When Bran asks whether the "little crannogman" (Howland Reed) has dreams like Jojen, Meera says explicitly he had not. She then continues to explain that HR knew crannog magic of water and earth, and went to the isles to learn more and other magic. If he has no green dreams, he is not a greenseer since a greenseer is a skinchanger who has green dreams. It appears that HR is a magician, a wizard.

GoHH has green dreams and red eyes, but there is no indication that she is a skinchanger. She might be though. We don't know that. Personally I doubt it. I don't consider her a verified greenseer, only a verified green dreamer. Some people think she might be CoTF, because she's so small, but Arya only remarks on the fact that she has red eyes, not cat-like eyes like the CoTF. She seems to have more physical affiliation with the crannogmen. We don't know whether CoTF in the wierdwood thrones at BR's cave are actual greenseers. Maybe they're all green dreamers and CotF green dreamers can still hook up on the weirnet, but would be incapable to skinchange animals. Or maybe "greenseer" is reserved as a term for humans. I'm not yet sure whether George himself had decided on that yet at the time of writing aDwD.

Anyhow, many do mistakenly call HR a greenseer, but Meera's statements make clear he is not. And the claim for GoHH is just that - a speculative claim. And a lot has to do with people mixig up "green dreaming" with "green seeing".

 

I never understood the "HR is a greenseer" theories because of what you just said, there are no clues pointing towards that. In fact, all the clues we do have, like when Meera tells Bran the story, point in the opposite direction.

I agree on the GoHH as well. I don't think she's a CotF but a crannog. I can't wait to have a bit more of her, that much I can say. Maybe in a future D&E if not in the current timeline. 

And yes! Lots of confusion between greenseer and greendreams. 

 

[Curled Finger]

Welcome @Sea Dragon.  Back when I was a lurker--maybe 4 or 5 years ago I ran across a topic about Greenseers.   This is from memory and I'm paraphrasing because it's been a long time, but I've sort of made this head canon:   1 in 100,000 people are greenseers.  Population speculative math bottom lined at 4 potential greenseers every generation at the rate of growth projected from real medieval estimates.   So I read everything looking for a potential 4th greenseer, Euron being the 3rd.   The gift of greensight doesn't make a person impervious to sickness or death.   

Prophetic talents are an interesting thing in this series.   We've got dragon dreams, green dreams, blood tasters and flames off the top of my head.    Greensight is different because of the multiple abilities a person is potentially gifted with.   If you want to have some fun use asearchoficeandfire to see who in story has red or moss green eyes.   Then go see who's got mismatched colored eyes.  It really is a fun exercise and will acquaint you with this glaring peculiarity GRRM gives certain characters.   

[Greywater-Watch]

Not to forget that someone with the talent to become a greenseer must be lucky enough to find a teacher. Bran Stark would most probably have passed as mere skinchanger had the greendreamer Jojen and Bloodraven not identified him from afar and led him to Bloodraven.

[sweetsunray]

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I never understood the "HR is a greenseer" theories because of what you just said, there are no clues pointing towards that. In fact, all the clues we do have, like when Meera tells Bran the story, point in the opposite direction.

I notice people often forget Meera's bit about magic and that was the reason HR traveled to the Isles for - to learn more magic. People remember mostly the tale of the KotLT and that HR got there because he had been visiting the isle. Then they remember almost nobody seems to go there, or allowed there, and many assume there are/were greenseers at the isle, and then they invent the idea, "HR must have been a greenseer." We sometimes are attracted to a certain mystery, think about it in our head, focus on one fact, but forgetting the rest, and it happens a lot with HR and his magical abilities. Can happen to the best of us though.

 

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Population speculative math bottom lined at 4 potential greenseers every generation at the rate of growth projected from real medieval estimates.   So I read everything looking for a potential 4th greenseer, Euron being the 3rd.   The gift of greensight doesn't make a person impervious to sickness or death.   

Prophetic talents are an interesting thing in this series.   We've got dragon dreams, green dreams, blood tasters and flames off the top of my head.    Greensight is different because of the multiple abilities a person is potentially gifted with.

Yes, for example I don't know what to make of Rickon or Jon in that regard. Rickon also dreamt about his father as Bran did. We know Rickon is a warg. And if Rickon is having dreams like Bran (green dreams), then surely Rickon is a greenseer, right? Or was it just that one time for Rickon and a true visit of Ned in the dreams of his sons. That seem to fall more in line with George claiming that of the Stark warg generation, only Bran is the greenseer.

And then there are certain dreams of Jon. Twice there's one with a weirwood in it. The first is in aCoK, while he's in the pass with Qhorin, and Bran telling him he likes it in the dark, talks about the 3rd eye and reaches with a branch for Jon's forehead, and yet, Jon approaches the weirwood as Ghost. So, this seems to be some type of warg dream, with a greenseer reaching out for Jon while he's most receptive to it - while he's warging Ghost. On the other hand, why does Bran reach for Jon's forehead. Is that not indicative that Jon too has the potential of having green dreams? His other weirwood dream is him and Ygritte swimming in the pool of WF godswood. The weirwood has his father's face, and Ygritte dissolves into bones. It seems more of a dream like Jaime has the night before he rescues Brienne, except Jaime slept on a weirwood stump at the time. Theon had his "weird" dreams while sleeping in Ned's "weirwood" bed. Jon sleeps in the smithy and there's no weirwood (that we know of). No idea what to make of Jon's type of dreams. 

[rotting sea cow]

"Prophetic" dreams doesn't make you a green dreamer. Practically every PoV gets a prophetic dream at some point. So there must be differences. Also skinchanging seems to be some steps below of greendreaming. We got Varamyr who explained us a lot about the mechanics of warging, but he didn't seem to be a dreamer.

Regarding the numbers of greenseers, there is this interesting quote fro aGoT

Quote

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

- Bran III, aGoT

These are likely greendreamers contacted by previous greenseers and they died because they failed the test. This means that any greenseer alive must have 'flown'. Euron seems to have been contacted by BR too, did he fly?

 

 

 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, for example I don't know what to make of Rickon or Jon in that regard. Rickon also dreamt about his father as Bran did. We know Rickon is a warg. And if Rickon is having dreams like Bran (green dreams), then surely Rickon is a greenseer, right? Or was it just that one time for Rickon and a true visit of Ned in the dreams of his sons. That seem to fall more in line with George claiming that of the Stark warg generation, only Bran is the greenseer.

And then there are certain dreams of Jon. Twice there's one with a weirwood in it. The first is in aCoK, while he's in the pass with Qhorin, and Bran telling him he likes it in the dark, talks about the 3rd eye and reaches with a branch for Jon's forehead, and yet, Jon approaches the weirwood as Ghost. So, this seems to be some type of warg dream, with a greenseer reaching out for Jon while he's most receptive to it - while he's warging Ghost. On the other hand, why does Bran reach for Jon's forehead. Is that not indicative that Jon too has the potential of having green dreams? His other weirwood dream is him and Ygritte swimming in the pool of WF godswood. The weirwood has his father's face, and Ygritte dissolves into bones. It seems more of a dream like Jaime has the night before he rescues Brienne, except Jaime slept on a weirwood stump at the time. Theon had his "weird" dreams while sleeping in Ned's "weirwood" bed. Jon sleeps in the smithy and there's no weirwood (that we know of). No idea what to make of Jon's type of dreams. 

There is a topic called Dem Bones a few weeks back written by a poster I respect a great deal.   The idea is that Ned's  bones were still at large perhaps allowing Ned's spirit to roam.   This has skewered the way I think about the Ned dreams.   I think it's entirely possible that Ned's ghost actually visited Bran and Rickon.   Arya and Sansa didn't have their wolves with them at the time.  I think the direwolves are a type of conduit to allowing the visit.   Then again, Ned's ghost could easily have only targeted his home in Winterfell so only the children there would receive the visit.   Could be completely off, but that's what I think.   Chalk that up to the influence excellent writing/creative thinking has on me.  

Jon's a different sort of dreamer altogether.   Ghost or Summer has a dream wherein he cannot sense the other.   Readers know the other (I think it's Ghost thinking of Summer) is well beyond the wall.  Both these direwolves know that Grey Wind is dead.   It's debatable what they actually sense of Lady, but they are aware of each other, Shaggy Dog and Nymeria.  I think this is an important clue as to the Stark children's abilities to know the unknowable.   Readers can discern the possible future in Jon's dreams and pick up on potential hints of prophesy in them.   Jon doesn't seem to.   Maybe it's Jon's location that muddles his ability to understand the importance of his dreams and then again maybe it's his special genetics that make his dreams different.   Jon knows he's a warg, but doesn't seem to relish his time in Ghost like Bran and Arya seem to.  Is it possible that poor Jon is a "powerful warg" and powerful dragon at the same time--one gift perhaps enhancing or curtailing the other?   What are we to make of a character who has both green dreams and dragon dreams at the same time?  Add the proximity to both weirwoods and The Lands of Always Winter and Jon's got to think the same thing I do of the vivid lucid type dreams--no more pizza after sunset.     

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

This has skewered the way I think about the Ned dreams.   I think it's entirely possible that Ned's ghost actually visited Bran and Rickon.

I agree, especially since Bran drops the tidbit that his father wanted to tell him something, something to do with Jon. And I think we can add the "Ygritte in a pool" dream as a Ned Stark communication dream too for Jon. 

Maybe we should start a thread to classify type of book dreams

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I agree, especially since Bran drops the tidbit that his father wanted to tell him something, something to do with Jon. And I think we can add the "Ygritte in a pool" dream as a Ned Stark communication dream too for Jon. 

Maybe we should start a thread to classify type of book dreams

Ditto! 

And hell yes, start that thread now!