[SPOILERS] Black Sails Season 4: All that glitters is not Silver

[Martini Sigil]

Has there been a better show than this over the last four years?.... I think not.

as broken hearted as I am that this is over, I get even more so at how many shows could aspire to this level, but settle for formulaic mediocrity

[Corvinus85]

2 minutes ago, Martini Sigil said:

Has there been a better show than this over the last four years?.... I think not.

as broken hearted as I am that this is over, I get even more so at how many shows could aspire to this level, but settle for formulaic mediocrity

I am with you on this. Consistently among my favorite shows starting with season 2, though even season 1 would have been high on my list had I done one. Last year, I considered Westworld slightly better than season 3, but I'm not sure I would put Westworld season 1 ahead of this season.

[red snow]

42 minutes ago, Martini Sigil said:

Has there been a better show than this over the last four years?.... I think not.

as broken hearted as I am that this is over, I get even more so at how many shows could aspire to this level, but settle for formulaic mediocrity

There were 10 shows I rated higher than season 3 last year but in terms of shows that have been as impressive over the last 4 years or as a whole show it's certainly trickier to pick. This season is currently my favourite of 2017 and has been since episode 3 - I'll be happy if anything topples it or comes close.

Better Call Saul still has to prove if it has legs, The Americans is consistently great but I'm not sure it's reached this show in terms of cinematic spectacle. Hannibal lost its shit in places, Boardwalk empire peaked at season 2 (so not in the last 4 years). Breaking Bad ended in the last 4 years and that final season was still amazing. Spartacus had a good final season and was clearly a prototype for Starz approach but it still had a zany OTT approach. The BBC's "the missing" has had two excellent seasons and "the line of duty" is a really well crafted police show but a lot of these shows are contemporary dramas and I'm still a sucker for the pre-20th century genre. It still reminds me that SFF is lagging in terms of quality which is a shame as I still feel they are my favourite genres but maybe that's nostalgia for shows I watched as a teen. And the shitty endings for some of the better SFF shows over the last decade has probably soured me a bit.

So yeah, I think that's a good call. I'd probably say season 2 of Black Sails is one of my favourite seasons of TV ever. I don't know what that top 10 would be but that season is definitely in it. In terms of a show where every aspect is excellent there aren't that many (Breaking Bad still springs to mind and Fargo has all the elements but has yet to fully click for me)

The thing I love about TV at the moment is that there're are shows I think can rise to the challenge - Sense8, Westworld. Legion (who still have the chance to hit their stride with second seasons. Then there's all the new shows about to land, American Gods, Star Trek: Discovery (I hope) and probably some amazing ones that aren't even on my radar yet. I noticed Toby Stephens is in the netflix version of "lost in space" next year so that's getting a watch

[Astromech]

Silver killing Flint is an interesting interpretation, but from my own impressions and after reading several interviews with the EPs, I am not seeing Flint's show ending as a big lie from Silver to Madi. This interview leads the reader to take Flint's show ending as real: http://deadline.com/2017/04/black-sails-spoilers-series-finale-toby-stephens-jon-steinberg-robert-levine-starz-1202057945/ The only lie I think was Silver leading Madi to believe he would help in the rebellion when he planned on sending Flint to Savannah all along.

[sweetsunray]

@Astromech

I've read several breakdown interviews... Their answers still remain ambiguous to me. Yes, they envisioned this ending since S3. Yes, they always knew that since "no body" in S2 for Thomas, it would come back in to play at the right time. In fact, Miranda visions already do, because she says "You still can't see it, yet. You're not alone". She's dead. Thomas is supposed to be dead. But he isn't with Miranda, right? Nobody is trying to claim that Thomas being alive is false.

They say in one interview something about explaining the story about Flint dying in Savannah, and how does one get Flint there. But that doesn't have to be physical at all, just getting the story of Flint there. Careful reading for me tells me that it's up to us to believe what we want to believe. But I'd say the writers themselves hope that was Flint's fate was to be reunited with Thomas. They still wrote in the ambiguity of it themselves, and one of them directed the episode.

The interviews also refer to Silver and Madi relationship as being partly broken, and that in some aspects it can never truly be put back together again:

from IGN

Quote

"And it felt resonant that, ultimately, that marriage between the two of them was flawed and based on stories generously put, and lies maybe less generously put, that were holding it together. There was just something that felt true as an ending for him that he gets the domestic life he wanted but that it is so compromised by how he got it that it'll never quite be right."

If Silver did what he claims he did, where's the lie?

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Martini Sigil said:

Has there been a better show than this over the last four years?.... I think not.

as broken hearted as I am that this is over, I get even more so at how many shows could aspire to this level, but settle for formulaic mediocrity

[Astromech]

9 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

@Astromech

I've read several breakdown interviews... Their answers still remain ambiguous to me. Yes, they envisioned this ending since S3. Yes, they always knew that since "no body" in S2 for Thomas, it would come back in to play at the right time. In fact, Miranda visions already do, because she says "You still can't see it, yet. You're not alone". She's dead. Thomas is supposed to be dead. But he isn't with Miranda, right? Nobody is trying to claim that Thomas being alive is false.

They say in one interview something about explaining the story about Flint dying in Savannah, and how does one get Flint there. But that doesn't have to be physical at all, just getting the story of Flint there. Careful reading for me tells me that it's up to us to believe what we want to believe. But I'd say the writers themselves hope that was Flint's fate was to be reunited with Thomas. They still wrote in the ambiguity of it themselves, and one of them directed the episode.

The interviews also refer to Silver and Madi relationship as being partly broken, and that in some aspects it can never truly be put back together again:

from IGN

If Silver did what he claims he did, where's the lie?

I think you're reaching here and seeking ambiguity to support your theory of Silver killing Flint.

And Silver's lie was everything about the rebellion up to the point at the end of the finale where he tells Madi it was a lie. Just because he came clean at the end doesn't mean he hadn't been lying to her about the rebellion the whole time.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, red snow said:

I imagine Flint kept walking towards Silver forcing him to shoot him then they concocted that tale, largely for the benefit of Madi. The only thing that makes this ambiguous is the opening scene where it's clear an agent of Silver is tracking Hamilton down. I think that actually happened but  Madi nailed it when asking about the timing of it all. After all, if the knowledge of Thomas was in Flint's hands there's no good reason why he wouldn't have opened with that gambit almost immediately. If he left it to the point where he shot Flint as Flint approached him it would be tragic and stupid.

Exactly. Flint was standing. Heck, even at the start of the finale we basically see Flint do what he did with Dufresne in S2. Allow Dufresne to be captain, but eventually get his captaincy back. He refuses to take Silver to the chest, again for control. And when Silver points the gun at him and begins to talk more darkly to Flint, Flint would have tried to force the issue physically... as he did with Gates. That was not a situation where Silver calmly said, "Thomas is alive, we know where he is," and Flint saying "alright". And he'd have snapped Silver's neck before Ben Gunn, Tom Morgan and Hands got there. Plain physical posture and with the tension towards the end between the two, a reasonable conversation simply does not fit anymore.

Tom Morgan was part of the crew at Skeleton Island. That means Tom Morgan got on the Walrus at the Maroon Island. It is timeline wise possible for Silver to have sent Tom Morgan to "Savannah" the same day he had the talk with Max, because we know it took Silver 2 hours before talking to Flint about Madi falling for his war, and he asks then what Flint would do if Thomas was alive.

But I don't think Silver intended to tell Flint before he was secure that measures were already in place that a compromize would be the sole result.

Silver wanted the treasure chest gone. Give it to Woodes or let it sit in the ground once Woodes was captured, but he wanted it gone from the Maroon camp once he learned Madi was alive. He didn't want any more war. Heck, he and Jack seemed to know of Woodes' conceived treaty before the ship battle. That means Silver and Woodes must have talked about it, before Woodes offered it again to Madi for Silver's life. Woodes saw something in Silver beyond desperation for Madi's life, to consider sparing him and his crew even. 

Tom Morgan & co going to Savannah afterwards to verify Thomas is there might work, except that we do have clues that Silver had taken measures off-screen to come to a compromize before Madi was safe again.

[sweetsunray]

27 minutes ago, Astromech said:

I think you're reaching here and seeking ambiguity to support your theory of Silver killing Flint.

And Silver's lie was everything about the rebellion up to the point at the end of the finale where he tells Madi it was a lie. Just because he came clean at the end doesn't mean he hadn't been lying to her about the rebellion the whole time.

It's simple: if the writers wanted no ambiguity, wanted the viewers to be certain, then they would have written and directed and cut a different finale (the scenes you wanted to see). They didn't. And nothing of what they say in their interviews about it, contradicts that ambiguity.

Well, he wasn't lying about the rebellion the whole time. It's only from 4x04 that he begins to consider an alternative and find ways to compromize. And he didn't have any contact with Madi anymore from the end of 4x05 onwards - before meeting Julius, before Tom Morgan's return. Then in 4x07 he believes her dead and wants the world to burn for it.

[Astromech]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

It's simple: if the writers wanted no ambiguity, wanted the viewers to be certain, then they would have written and directed and cut a different finale (the scenes you wanted to see). They didn't. And nothing of what they say in their interviews about it, contradicts that ambiguity.

Well, he wasn't lying about the rebellion the whole time. It's only from 4x04 that he begins to consider an alternative and find ways to compromize. And he didn't have any contact with Madi anymore from the end of 4x05 onwards - before meeting Julius, before Tom Morgan's return. Then in 4x07 he believes her dead and wants the world to burn for it.

I'm talking ambiguity in the interviews, not the finale. But they said in their interviews that Flint did reunite with Thomas. You can speculate as much as you like about the ending and may prefer thinking Silver killed Flint (or put yourself in Madi's position and choose to believe Silver or not. The distance between the two characters in that final scene was no accident), but Steinberg and Levine said what Flint's fate was. I'm not questioning ambiguity or different interpretations of the finale after initially viewing it. I'm talking about sticking to those various interpretations after reading Steinberg and Levine's interviews I linked in previous posts on the finale saying Flint and Thomas were reunited.

[sweetsunray]

11 minutes ago, Astromech said:

I'm talking ambiguity in the interviews, not the finale. But they said in their interviews that Flint did reunite with Thomas. You can speculate as much as you like about the ending and may prefer thinking Silver killed Flint (or put yourself in Madi's position and choose to believe Silver or not. The distance between the two characters in that final scene was no accident), but Steinberg and Levine said what Flint's fate was. I'm not questioning ambiguity or different interpretations of the finale after initially viewing it. I'm talking about sticking to those various interpretations after reading Steinberg and Levine's interviews I linked in previous posts on the finale saying Flint and Thomas were reunited.

No they don't explicitly say that.

IGN interview:

Quote

IGN: Flint found Thomas, after all these years, but he's also a prisoner now. But is being back with his true love worth it? Is that all that matters to him?

Steinberg: I think we spent a lot of time this season exploring that question. Is it enough if you are forced to give up everything but you are given the connection you've been seeking in order to be fulfilled - is that connection enough? I think, in some way, that question is explored a number of times in the last few episodes and we get different answers. And I don't necessarily think that at the end of that finale those answers are fully cooked. I think they're situations that people have chosen for themselves or have been chosen for them, in which they're going to find out. In that moment, it's emotionally effective I think. To see them back together again. And to see Flint in that place.

You can read that as confirmation, but even seeing a vision is not necessarily true. Example: Miranda and Eleanor visions. It is gratifying to see that vision, to have it on screen, and it is powerful to see it in a way that it might be true, and not say "hey this is purgatory" a la Lost.

They have Silver tell Billy that if he tells the men the sky is red, that they'd believe it. Imo they go as far as Silver telling a story ending for Flint that we would wish for him, he wants to believe it, the writers want to beleive it, and thus we see a vision of something that is impossible as if it's true.

That's my take out of it. If you believe it's true, they say enough and they give enough in the show for you to believe that it truly happened. I don't. For me it's the pigs of Animal Farm telling the horse is on his way to his retirement field, while he was actually on his way to the butcher.

[Astromech]

Steinberg is responding directly to IGN's question of whether Flint's reunion with Thomas was worth giving everything else up and  Thomas being all that matters. First, why entertain such a question if the reunion isn't true? Second, the part you bolded was Steinberg's response to the actual question posted by IGN, i.e, whether it was worth it. We don't know because the parting shot of Flint and Thomas is the initial reunion. Flint seems happy, but was it ultimately worth it? Was Thomas all that mattered to him? Considering Flint ends up drinking himself to death alone in Savannah, we may be tempted to answer those questions in the negative.

In the Deadline article linked in one of my previous posts . . .

DEADLINE: One of those themes was the one of love and redemption, especially for Toby Stephens’ Flint. After what looked for sure to be his death at the hands of Silver, we see him transported to a reformist penal colony in what is now the state of Georgia and reunited with a kiss and an embrace with Tom Hamilton. Why was that the end for Black Sails’ most dominating character?

 

STEINBERG: Among the things that we felt from Treasure Island we wanted to respect the cannon and work the show towards was this very specific and very odd mention of the end of Captain Flint, which is only told through hearsay in the book. It explained to be that Flint died alone and in a really rough way in Savannah, and it did feel specific and something that we wanted to try to make some sense of and give some emotional context to.

I also think the idea that we would hear from Thomas again has been around for as long as Thomas has been around. I think we largely subscribe to the idea that if you don’t see a body in a show, it doesn’t matter how many people tell you they’re dead, they’re not dead, and it was just a question of how and when he would return.

DEADLINE: You really mix history and Stevenson’s fiction there…

STEINBERG: Well, there was this historical reality that felt interesting, that Savannah and the Georgia colony began, in some part, as a prison reform exercise. It was a way to create an environment in which prisoners were treated more humanely than they were in England. So, when you add those two things up, the overlap in that Venn diagram starts to look at lot like Thomas Hamilton, and it just felt clean. Especially in a show that has always been about balancing history and this fictional world from Treasure Island that, at the end, they were touching again. That there was a moment in which it felt like both halves of the show had their moment to have a part in Flint’s end and to have a part in sort of putting him in the place that he’d stay until the book starts.

 

No, seeing a vision isn't necessarily true, but the EPs statements confirm Flint in fact survives and reunites with Thomas.

[sweetsunray]

Just live chatted with Jessica Parker on the afterbuzz review show... Jessica says Flint gone to puppy heaven.

[Astromech]

Yeah I saw that interview. She said that was her interpretation after reading the script, "the way I read it for me was Flint goes to puppy heaven". Again, I'll point you back to the showrunners' comments in those interviews linked previously.

[sweetsunray]

I'v read them Astromech. Yesterday, Sunday night and now again. All they're saying to me is that they wanted to create a story bridge how characters end up thinking in TI that Flint died drinking himself to death in Savannah. Because of obviously if Flint did indeed end up in the penal colony, then TI's tale about Flint must be a lie. And if the second is a lie, the first can be a lie too. Both stories can be seen as a lie, but the lies still connect and place Flint in Savannah. Very obvioiusly they do play around with the TI canon with Billy washing ashore on Skeleton Island and Ben Gunn not on the boat. The writers pointed out several times before the finale that there are unrelaible narrators in TI.

Most things turn out to be lies. Woodes goes down in Nassau history as the man who repelled the Spanish from invading Nassau. BS has him being the one who invited them to invade Nassau and New Providence.

[red snow]

the showrunners comments do make it sound like he survived but again once something is out there it's open to interpetation and i don't beleive they'd accidentally create something so ambigious (unless they are creative genuises who don't know they are doing it). Obviously "being reunited" could be in the afterlife which the show has played with on several occasions. The whole "lining up with Treasure island" still doens't negate Flint's death because he's not an active part of treasure island and winding up drunk in Savannah can just as easily gel between the show and Treasure Island.

Part of me wishes there'd been room for a scene with Silver getting a parrot. If he killed Flint then the parrot takes on a whole new meaning and may be a reminder of his guilt rather than a mockery of Flint. Although I still see it being possible he'd grow to hate Flint over time with either scenario.

I was thnking a little more about Silver's conversation about with Madi and the part about Flint resisting less and starting to hope, the closer he got to Hamiliton could also be part truth. Silver could have been talking about Flint walking closer to Silver in the stand-off and how the closer he got, the more obvious it was that the fight was out of Flint. Then as he died he accepted the hope he'd be reunited. It's possible that Silver was creating a narrative for himself as much as Madi.

I did like the teases in the deadline interview about a potential Rackham spin-off. Part of me thinks they shouldn't do it but I felt that way about BEtter call saul until i saw it. The creators just need to find a way to establish a different tone and way to distinguish it from Black Sails.

I also liked the hint that Levine has a new show that's currently going to be produced by Steinberg. Hopefully something very different but I'm very curious about it.

[GallowKnight]

Well, death of the author and all that.

I just realized Tom Morgan is actually a character from Treasure Island.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, GallowKnight said:

Well, death of the author and all that.

I just realized Tom Morgan is actually a character from Treasure Island.

Yes. He's one of the 3 pirates left on Skeleton Island, after Hawkins, Ben and Silver sail off again with the treasure.

[red snow]

38 minutes ago, GallowKnight said:

Well, death of the author and all that.

I just realized Tom Morgan is actually a character from Treasure Island.

True.

At first I thought the Reed character was going to be an oddly placed Hawkins but then it was so obvious she was a woman pretending to be a man that I recalled the pirate history.

[sweetsunray]

8 hours ago, Astromech said:

Yeah I saw that interview. She said that was her interpretation after reading the script, "the way I read it for me was Flint goes to puppy heaven".

At least I got to make Jessica Parker Kennedy laugh hard at my chat comment about believing the sky is red. She thought that was a good one. While Lauren scolded me and Nadine swore she'd believe the sky is purple and orange if need be. 

For those who haven't watched it: JPK starts to talk about it from here, and it remains a topic until 13 mins in.