Who is the True Targaryen Heir?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

52 minutes ago, Nezza86 said:

Dany with Dawn

I am not sure that Dany knows how to even handle a normal sword not a huge two handed greatsword.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well, as I have stated many times before, Jon is not going to contest for the Targaryen crown against Daenerys. He has no interest in that. But, against his own desires, this truth is inevitably going to be revealed in some dramatic way, much later in the series. And this will result in something big. Else it was a pointless mystery all along.

No, it is not because this mystery might be resolved in a way people do not expect. There is no reason to believe that the question who is king in the end matters all that much. Not in light of the threat of the Others. And the mystery of Jon's parentage might have no impact whatsoever in the political sphere. The Others certainly wouldn't care whether he was born in wedlock or not.

And who knows? Perhaps all the heroes will die in the fight against the Others, or rather the three big heroes, Jon, Dany, and Tyrion? Aegon's child by Arianne could be propped up on the Iron Throne, and there could be some positive regency council established considering of people like Brienne, Davos, Sansa, and Asha. 

2 minutes ago, Nezza86 said:

Ditto, Jon is AA reborn and Dany is his Nissa Nissa, and if she's the true targaryen heir then her sacrifice would be really magically powerful.

Right, because we have reason to believe that there is a reborn Nissa Nissa. Drogo was Nissa Nissa if there ever was one, and he is long dead. But Drogon is still warm, just as Drogo had been.

If Jon has to sacrifice somebody for some reason Arya has to die. She is the one he wants to save in ADwD, and that's the reason why she would have to die if you talk in terms of sacrifices. They have to hurt. Dany and Jon don't even know each other.

13 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jeez. Over reaction doesn't suit you. However, I take responsibility in this situation because here I was thinking I found an unbiased poster ready to discuss something I also wanted to dig deeper into. Mea culpa.

I shall leave you and the other Dany rulzzz fans to the private fapping and continued fan division. 

Oh, come on now, this question is easily answered. Dany is the true and only heir of House Targaryen because nobody else is left. They are all dead, even Bloodraven and Aemon (who long lost any claims to anything by joining the NW). Knowing 'the truth' doesn't change things. A lot of people know 'the truth' about Cersei's children but they still sit the Iron Throne. Jon being revealed to be some Targaryen child doesn't teleport him on the Iron Throne. Just as nobody cared about 'the revelation' that Daeron II was a bastard and Daemon Blackfyre the true king.

Even if Jon had not joined the NW (which he did) there is no reason to believe that the revelation about his true heritage (however this is going to be revealed) can supplant Daenerys or Aegon (or even Tyrion, if he gets legitimized as a Targaryen by Daenerys) as the rightful Targaryen heir in the eyes of the public because he cannot hope to convince anyone of his parentage and legitimate birth.

Not after Aegon pulled the same stunt off (and lost to Daenerys). That would be an utterly ridiculous storyline.

[Nezza86]

Quote

I am not sure that Dany knows how to even handle a normal sword not a huge two handed greatsword.

She knew how to handle Drogos haha.

No i dont think she'll be running about chopping wights heads off with Dawn. I think she'll claim it and give it to someone, maybe Jorah (although i think hell end up with Longclaw) or Brienne if she becomes part of her retinue.

To come at it from a different angle, a lot of people seem to think Dawn is, or will be, lightbringer (I don't). So if Jon is AA then how does Jon get Dawn if not via Dany? The big plot point about Dawn is that it has to be a Dayne that claims it. Surely we're over the theory that Ashara is Jons mother by now? Who does that leave? Darkstar? - a ridiculously minor character.

[Nezza86]

How do you reference the poster in the quote? Ive been trying but it doesnt work

[Jon's Queen Consort]

13 minutes ago, Nezza86 said:

How do you reference the poster in the quote? Ive been trying but it doesnt work

@ the name of the poster. For example; @Jon's Queen Consort

To come at it from a different angle, a lot of people seem to think Dawn is, or will be, lightbringer (I don't). So if Jon is AA then how does Jon get Dawn if not via Dany? The big plot point about Dawn is that it has to be a Dayne that claims it. Surely we're over the theory that Ashara is Jons mother by now? Who does that leave? Darkstar? - a ridiculously minor character.

I do believe that Dawn can be Lightbringer. But original Lightbringer not AAR's Lightbringer and even even it is Lightbringer what does Dany have to do with it?

No i dont think she'll be running about chopping wights heads off with Dawn. I think she'll claim it and give it to someone, maybe Jorah (although i think hell end up with Longclaw) or Brienne if she becomes part of her retinue.

Why she is the one who is going to give Dawn away? Does it belongs to her?

[Nezza86]

Quote

@Jon's Queen Consrort

I do believe that Dawn can be Lightbringer. But original Lightbringer not AAR's Lightbringer and even even it is Lightbringer what does Dany have to do with it?

Well I think shes half Dayne and half targaryen. so she could claim it and it would be the outcome of the end of her chapter where thats revealed. my reason for starting this thread was to see if anyone had any theories that could tie her into still being the rightful queen if she was half Dayne.

[The Commentator]

22 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Heir to what? They have lost both the Throne and Dragonstone therefore what is left?

 

In any case since everything points to Jon being Rhaegar’s trueborn son he is the Head of the House. But I am not sure who comes next since the Targs have made a rule, or at least that is the only rule we have so far for them, and they had ruled out the women and their descendants as the heirs. Hence it would seem like after Jon is FAegon if he is a Blackfyre and or a Brightflame  and BloodRaven.

 

Jon is a bastard and entitled to nothing.  

As far as the Targaryens as a whole, they are still the rightful rulers of the Seven Kingdoms.  The Targaryens have as much right to rule Westeros as the Starks have to rule Winterfell.  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

17 minutes ago, Nezza86 said:

Well I think shes half Dayne and half targaryen. so she could claim it and it would be the outcome of the end of her chapter where thats revealed. my reason for starting this thread was to see if anyone had any theories that could tie her into still being the rightful queen if she was half Dayne.

Even if she is half Dayne she is a bastard and even if a bastard could take Dawn she isn't a knight, Only a knight can take Dawn and she is worse fighter than Sam.

2 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Jon is a bastard and entitled to nothing.  

GRRM how nice to see you around here!

Just now, Widowmaker 811 said:

As far as the Targaryens as a whole, they are still the rightful rulers of the Seven Kingdoms.  The Targaryens have as much right to rule Westeros as the Starks have to rule Winterfell.  

The Targs have been overthrown. They will have a right if they conquer it back.

[The Twinslayer]

22 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I don't think that this is the right thread to start it all over again. 

The books say that there is a possibility that Elia killed her children. So if you believe that Aerys disinherited Rhaegar, something that has no text proof from ASOIAF, there is no reason why Elia hadn't killed her children either.

So you believe everything that is told in the text? 

We have no proof that polygamy was ever illegal unlike incest which was illegal.

Who the eff said anything about convincing the Westerosi?

According to the WOIAF Dany cannot inherit.

You cannot say that you agree with the text about Aerys disinheriting Rhaegar and then you don't agree. If you believe whatever it is in the text Aerys disinherited Rhaegar, Elia killed her children and Dany cannot inherit hence either Jon as a bastard inherits or the Targaryen line dies.

The world book does not say that Rhaegar was disinherited.  It says that when Rhaegar died, Viserys was Aerys' "new heir."  There is no reason to doubt this (other than not wanting it to be true) because there was no propaganda value to this fact for the new regime.  And there is every reason to credit it.  In AGOT, we hear Walder Frey announce that he has the power to pick his own heir.  If a second-tier Lord like Walder Frey can pick his own heir, surely the king can, too.  Also, in ASOS, Jaime says he considered naming a new Targaryen heir after Aerys died -- and he thinks first of Viserys and only after that of Aegon.

The more interesting question is why did this happen?  To use the terms GRRM himself used in the SSM on the Hornwood succession, why did "proximity" (proximity to the king) come before "precedence" (primogeniture).  In other words, does the son of a king come before the grandson of a king even where primogeniture would favor the grandson.  The first reason would be to look to see if this situation ever came up before.  And it had:  when Egg succeeded Maekar, he did it despite the fact that his dead older brothers had left children.  So it may be that Viserys automatically came before Aegon the moment Rhaegar died. 

The other possibility is that Aerys made a proclamation that Viserys was heir.  There are ample quotes from the books confirming that Aerys could do that.

Finally, we know that the only territory controlled by the loyalists after the Sack of King's Landing was Dragonstone.  Viserys was crowned there -- just as Renly, Robb, Stannis and Balon would later be crowned, and become kings, in their own territory.  So Viserys sat the ancient throne of Aegon the Conqueror and was proclaimed king.  

22 hours ago, El Guapo said:

The text did not say that Aerys disinherited Rhaegar. The text said that upon Rhaegar's death Aerys named Viserys the heir. As King he is allowed to do that especially when we are talking about skipping over an infant. And no there is there is no text that says that Dany cannot inherit.

Exactly.  In AGOT, it is made clear that Viserys has named Dany "Princess of Dragonstone."  That is the title for the Targaryen heir.  So Viserys named an heir.  It makes no difference that he thought Aegon was dead.  Unless he changed his mind before he died, Dany became the rightful Targaryen queen when Viserys died. 

There is a passage in the world book saying that "some say" a precedent was set that women always come after men.  But that precedent was disputed and never achieved general acceptance -- leading, of course, to the Dance of the Dragons. 

22 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Why not though? The thread title invites it. I agree it's a bore though, and I merely reminded everyone that the idea that Jon is trueborn is only a theory. My point was that the burden of proof rests on anyone making that claim.

Fallacies aside, your sound arguments so far are that:
i) Yandel's words on the matter should be dismissed because he isn't always reliable. That's a debatable position because Yandel provides a wealth of information on a number of subjects and there's no reason to think he would be unreliable on this particular one.
ii) Polygamy has never been declared illegal. Another debatable position since after Aegon the Conqueror polygamy was always rare and controversial, even for Targaryens. Unless, once again, you want to dismiss Yandel on account of his unreliability. But then you'd still have to explain why so few Targaryen kings did not have more than one wife if it was seen as legal/normal/ok.

But most importantly you've yet to provide any evidence that the marriage actually happened. And I'm genuinely curious what evidence you propose. There's one argument I'm very familiar with. But because you said "everything points" to this, I would assume you have more than one. So by all means, please provide your evidence so the OP can make up their mind about it.

It does not matter if R+L=J or if Jon has some claim to be trueborn.  Even if he could prove that he is a legitimate child of Rhaegar, his claim still comes behind Dany's.

If you want to get a little more nuanced, consider this.  The arguments we see in the books about who has a stronger claim are these:

Firstborn child (e.g., Rhaegar)

Named heir by the king (Rhaenyra)

Last surviving child of a king (Egg)

More Targaryen blood (Daemon Blackfyre)

Other claimant is a bastard (Daemon Blackfyre vs. Daeron Falseborn)

I have a dragon (TMK says if Daemon II Blackfyre had a living dragon, the lords would flock to him)

Other claimant married without the king's permission (Duncan the Small)

Also remember the value of proof:  Tywin says that "man's laws" give Tyrion the right to the Lannister name because Tywin "can't prove you aren't mine." 

Dany wins on almost all of these counts:  named by Viserys, last surviving child of Aerys, more Targaryen blood that Aegon or Jon, can claim that Jon is a bastard, she has dragons (and even if the others get dragons, she hatched them and hers is the biggest), and she is the only one who can prove she is who she says she is. 

Add all of that to the problems an unwitnessed, polygamous, so-called marriage would cause -- not least being that we know that polygamy would violate the marriage vows of the Faith, that Jaehaerys codified a single legal code for Westeros after making peace with the Faith, and there have been no polygamous marriages since Jaehaerys did that -- and it would be surprising if GRRM bothered with writing that there was some kind of "wedding" ceremony between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 hours ago, Nezza86 said:

Ditto, Jon is AA reborn and Dany is his Nissa Nissa, and if she's the true targaryen heir then her sacrifice would be really magically powerful.

Not at all.  There are no "reborn" heroes in his story. All that is bullshit by mel, who is very wrong on a number of occasions. At best there are archetypes.  Dany fits the AA archetype. she killed her love to create a powerful flaming weapons that will be instrumental in killing the others
Jon's archetype is the prince that was promised. Sired from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.  Bran is the last hero, traveling to find the children of the forest to learn how to defeat the others.  

[Lady Blizzardborn]

12 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Like his Ancestor, the conqueror 

Yes. And Aegon had the addition of right of conquest. Used to annoy the heck out of me when people wrongly said Robert had right of conquest.

Aegon also had right of dragons.

[Dorian Martell's son]

Just now, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Yes. And Aegon had the addition of right of conquest. Used to annoy the heck out of me when people wrongly said Robert had right of conquest.

Aegon also had right of dragons.

"Lightbringer" if you will 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Just now, Dorian Martell's son said:

"Lightbringer" if you will 

If you mean the dragons, I don't know about that. Seems like if they used dragons to beat the Others before somebody would have kept that part of the story in.

But I admit it's possible.

[Dorian Martell's son]

Just now, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If you mean the dragons, I don't know about that. Seems like if they used dragons to beat the Others before somebody would have kept that part of the story in.

But I admit it's possible.

It is symbolic, not something from the past. A flaming weapon if you will. Three of them 

[Lord Varys]

@The Twinslayer

The main defeater for the Jon thing is that it never came to the test how good the claim of a child born by the second or third polygamous wife in comparison to the child born by the first, universally recognized wife would be.

Only the Conqueror had a son from each of his sister-wives, but even he only had Maegor after Rhaenys was dead for two years. That isn't exactly polygamy, at least not insofar as the time of birth of the children is concerned.

One really wonders how good a claim a son of Maegor's from Tyanna of the Tower or Elinor Costayne would have had against a younger of Maegor's. Dragons or not, the overwhelming majority of the Westerosi people thought Maegor's many marriages were unlawful, and thus any children of such unions would be bastards.

This would only change for Jon if we somehow assume the majority of the people in Westeros suddenly all became fans of bigamy - not exactly a likely scenario.

But then, they would also have to believe the story of his parentage, an overall very unlikely scenario. He doesn't look like a Targaryen, he joined the NW, why should we care?

To be an heir you have to publicly recognized as such, and unless a Targaryen isn't recognized by one of his own he is not going to be an heir of anything.

Sure, they could still make him king in the end if everybody else is dead and they actually buy the story of his parentage. But then the people doing this would make him a Targaryen/royal. He would be a king of their choosing/graces, not because he has any inherent right to it. That would only have been the case if Jon had grown up as a royal child in exile like Viserys and Daenerys. Or perhaps, Aegon. But somebody who doesn't even know who he is doesn't have a right to anything, especially in a medieval setting.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Just now, Dorian Martell's son said:

It is symbolic, not something from the past. A flaming weapon if you will. Three of them 

Ah. Got it!

[Belgarad]

I really hope Maegor son of Aerion plays at least a small part in the story at some point.  Based purely on primogeniture this guy, or any legitimate son of his, is the senior member of House Targaryen.  If he is still alive he`d be pushing 70 if I recall correctly.  My two favorite possibilities for his identity are that he is the Tattered Prince, or that Varys is the son of Maegor.  The Tattered Prince theory is a tougher sell since he is described as being in his early sixties, but people guess ages wrong all the time.  Varys being the son of Maegor seems more likely.  He shaves his head like young Egg did.  The magic ceremony where his junk was cut off and burned may have only been successful (and him specifically selected for it) because of his King`s Blood.

[Lord Varys]

34 minutes ago, Belgarad said:

I really hope Maegor son of Aerion plays at least a small part in the story at some point.  Based purely on primogeniture this guy, or any legitimate son of his, is the senior member of House Targaryen.  If he is still alive he`d be pushing 70 if I recall correctly.  My two favorite possibilities for his identity are that he is the Tattered Prince, or that Varys is the son of Maegor.  The Tattered Prince theory is a tougher sell since he is described as being in his early sixties, but people guess ages wrong all the time.  Varys being the son of Maegor seems more likely.  He shaves his head like young Egg did.  The magic ceremony where his junk was cut off and burned may have only been successful (and him specifically selected for it) because of his King`s Blood.

I'd not expect anything of that. Aerion's son is at best a footnote in the history of Westeros, a child that might still have died in the cradle. The idea that Varys is connected to him makes little sense in light of the quite numerous descendants of Daemon Blackfyre.

Varys could be a Targaryen bastard, I guess, but never a legitimate child of Prince Maegor. Nobody would have forgotten such a child, not even if Maegor ended up in exile in Essos. The Iron Throne would have kept an eye on him, just as they did on the Blackfyre pretenders and Robert later did with Viserys and Dany.

And quite honestly, a Great Council dismissed Maegor's claim - and the claim of his elder cousin Vaella, of the most senior line. Princess Rhaenys and Laenor Velaryon accepted this in 101 AC, too. Why should we assume this Maegor chap who was passed over as an infant (or his son) should feel wronged?

Dany only feels wronged because her brother told her tales, but even then she isn't particularly invested in Westeros or the Iron Throne. Not everybody thinks in dynastic terms just as not everybody is hungry for power. If Maegor lived he could have grown into a fine and happy lad who had no interest in being king, thanking the Seven each day that uncle Egg had to deal with this responsibility while he could simply enjoy life.

[Sea Dragon]

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Not at all.  There are no "reborn" heroes in his story. All that is bullshit by mel, who is very wrong on a number of occasions. At best there are archetypes.  Dany fits the AA archetype. she killed her love to create a powerful flaming weapons that will be instrumental in killing the others
Jon's archetype is the prince that was promised. Sired from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.  Bran is the last hero, traveling to find the children of the forest to learn how to defeat the others.  

This is good. I don't think there will be any reborn people either. Just maybe people who are like the ones from the past.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, it is not because this mystery might be resolved in a way people do not expect. There is no reason to believe that the question who is king in the end matters all that much. Not in light of the threat of the Others. And the mystery of Jon's parentage might have no impact whatsoever in the political sphere. The Others certainly wouldn't care whether he was born in wedlock or not.

And who knows? Perhaps all the heroes will die in the fight against the Others, or rather the three big heroes, Jon, Dany, and Tyrion? Aegon's child by Arianne could be propped up on the Iron Throne, and there could be some positive regency council established considering of people like Brienne, Davos, Sansa, and Asha. 

Right, because we have reason to believe that there is a reborn Nissa Nissa. Drogo was Nissa Nissa if there ever was one, and he is long dead. But Drogon is still warm, just as Drogo had been.

If Jon has to sacrifice somebody for some reason Arya has to die. She is the one he wants to save in ADwD, and that's the reason why she would have to die if you talk in terms of sacrifices. They have to hurt. Dany and Jon don't even know each other.

Oh, come on now, this question is easily answered. Dany is the true and only heir of House Targaryen because nobody else is left. They are all dead, even Bloodraven and Aemon (who long lost any claims to anything by joining the NW). Knowing 'the truth' doesn't change things. A lot of people know 'the truth' about Cersei's children but they still sit the Iron Throne. Jon being revealed to be some Targaryen child doesn't teleport him on the Iron Throne. Just as nobody cared about 'the revelation' that Daeron II was a bastard and Daemon Blackfyre the true king.

Even if Jon had not joined the NW (which he did) there is no reason to believe that the revelation about his true heritage (however this is going to be revealed) can supplant Daenerys or Aegon (or even Tyrion, if he gets legitimized as a Targaryen by Daenerys) as the rightful Targaryen heir in the eyes of the public because he cannot hope to convince anyone of his parentage and legitimate birth.

Not after Aegon pulled the same stunt off (and lost to Daenerys). That would be an utterly ridiculous storyline.

Jon and Daenerys are moving toward each other and Daenerys could be nissa nissa in this scenario. For some reason all the Targaryens seem to belong together, maybe it is their blood, and Jon is a Targaryen and he and Daenerys will unite Westeros but she could die to end the madness from her father.

There is no rule that I remember that says Daenerys is the only heir. I just finished the books not too long ago and Jon seems ready to be exposed soon and people know his secret, and not just Bran in the tree later. I do not think it is that easy.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Sea Dragon said:

Jon and Daenerys are moving toward each other and Daenerys could be nissa nissa in this scenario.

We already got the Nissa Nissa parallel with Dany and the dragons. She tried to hatch the eggs three times, and the last time she realized what she had to do - burn her love. If you recall the actual scene on the pyre it is literally Drogo's spirit, his soul taking off into the afterlife on the back of his phantom horse who hatches the dragon eggs. He is the sacrifice. He and everything he could have given Dany (Rhaego, and a life with the Dothraki).

I don't think we are going to revisit that plot later again in the story. It came up in ACoK (shortly after Dany hatched the eggs to explain who she most likely is and who Stannis is not) but that's it. We won't get a bunch of people trying to tamper magical steel by murdering some women. That would be repetitive and strange.

And nobody is going to need some magic sword when Dany and Jon finally meet. They should be needing something bigger at that time. A magical sword is not going to help anyone to defeat the Others.

1 minute ago, Sea Dragon said:

For some reason all the Targaryens seem to belong together, maybe it is their blood, and Jon is a Targaryen and he and Daenerys will unite Westeros but she could die to end the madness from her father.

Everyone can inherit the Targaryen madness. Dany is Aerys II's child, but so was Rhaegar. He turned out pretty fine. Jon (or Aegon) could easily enough succumb to madness as Aerys II's grandchild. Both Prince Rhaegel and Prince Aerion had non-Targaryen mothers yet they succumbed to madness, too. 

1 minute ago, Sea Dragon said:

There is no rule that I remember that says Daenerys is the only heir. I just finished the books not too long ago and Jon seems ready to be exposed soon and people know his secret, and not just Bran in the tree later. I do not think it is that easy.

My point was that Dany is the universally acknowledged heir and last known scion of House Targaryen right. As of yet nobody questions this. Aegon has a pretty good chance to challenge her on that considering he reached Westeros in her absence, has Rhaegar's old buddy vouch for him, and is likely to win the support of Dorne. Aegon can get himself declared 'Rhaegar's son' by popular vote. 

Jon won't be able to do that. He doesn't have the looks, he doesn't have the connections to Targaryen loyalists, and, quite frankly, nobody would believe his ridiculous story without good evidence. Which he cannot have. The world has Eddard Stark's word on the matter of his parentage. A man who was known to be a man of honor. Why should people suddenly doubt his word.