Who is the True Targaryen Heir?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ramsay is considered to be Farya's legitimate husband, due to marrying in front of a Heart Tree. The same would apply to Lyanna and Rhaegar. There is no need for a Septon.

The key is proving to the right people that it happened. I suspect the Isle of Faces is where they got married. And that the Green Men are the keepers of the secret,and that they will come into play when the time is right.

[Nezza86]

Ah sweet, I go to sleep then wake up to a million replies haha. Good old UK/US time difference.

So the reason i'm wondering about this just now is because of Melisandre's insistance that kings blood is more powerful. I have a sneaky feeling that whoever the true heir is between Jon, Dany and Aegon will be the person who has to give up their life to ignite lightbringer. I agree though that whoever the conqueror is should be king like it was before. So Dany seems the obvious choice, but her route to be the legitimate queen is tenuous. So its nice to see theres plenty of typical George-style ambiguous text to keep us guessing.

I'd also wondered about Vary's riddle and how that might come into play in the end, the rich noble ie Aegon sponsored by Mopatis, the King or Queen in this case is Dany and the priest could maybe be Jon. so who does the power lie with? whoever the people believe it lies with I think was the answer right? Really nice to see someone else mentioned it earlier.

As part of my wider theory for the endgame of the books it makes sense for Dany to be Nissa Nissa. But I had thought that in the laws of succesion the females were always overruled if there was a surviving male. For example an uncle or a cousin would become the king before a daughter?? Am i wrong? which is why I thought the ridiculous Dorne plot of naming Myrcella as queen was important if say Dany was half Dayne. Of course Dany is the "Dragon" where Aegon, although he surely is a Targaryen, is not "blood of the dragon". It would be pretty annoying if George wrote all of the ambiguity into Aegons death only for an impostor to take his place later anyway. Maybe not, meh.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Heart tree marriages are null to the seven, not even talking about how crap the story would get...

Viserys was the targ Heir, a line surpassed (Rhaegar) is a line erased in med europe (unless dany dies as the las true targ and Heir to the targ crowned king) that would be Viserys crowned by rhaella in dragonstone, the "beggar" KING...

[Drogonthedread]

32 minutes ago, Nezza86 said:

Ah sweet, I go to sleep then wake up to a million replies haha. Good old UK/US time difference.

So the reason i'm wondering about this just now is because of Melisandre's insistance that kings blood is more powerful. I have a sneaky feeling that whoever the true heir is between Jon, Dany and Aegon will be the person who has to give up their life to ignite lightbringer. I agree though that whoever the conqueror is should be king like it was before. So Dany seems the obvious choice, but her route to be the legitimate queen is tenuous. So its nice to see theres plenty of typical George-style ambiguous text to keep us guessing.

I'd also wondered about Vary's riddle and how that might come into play in the end, the rich noble ie Aegon sponsored by Mopatis, the King or Queen in this case is Dany and the priest could maybe be Jon. so who does the power lie with? whoever the people believe it lies with I think was the answer right? Really nice to see someone else mentioned it earlier.

As part of my wider theory for the endgame of the books it makes sense for Dany to be Nissa Nissa. But I had thought that in the laws of succesion the females were always overruled if there was a surviving male. For example an uncle or a cousin would become the king before a daughter?? Am i wrong? which is why I thought the ridiculous Dorne plot of naming Myrcella as queen was important if say Dany was half Dayne. Of course Dany is the "Dragon" where Aegon, although he surely is a Targaryen, is not "blood of the dragon". It would be pretty annoying if George wrote all of the ambiguity into Aegons death only for an impostor to take his place later anyway. Maybe not, meh.

 

If you are interested in Power of Kings blood and how it had helped wake dragon from stone and in turn the light bringer.. Then we have to go back all the way to AGoT

The dany chapter after she had been taken into the tent where MMD performaning ritual we see dany having Dragon dreams..

In that we get to see two kings or should I say death of two kings namely viserys and Rhaego in that order ..notice Rhaego comes after viserys not the other way around ..

Why is this dream important is because that's the dream which continues where dany is surrounded by dark and inside stone chamber and she needs to find an escape...she was guided by her ancestors while the Words " Waking dragon " is been over the events and eventually dany flies out of the chamber as a dragon and sees herself as Rhaegar as in Last DRagon..

Immediately after the dream dany wakes and she knows what she must do to birth dragons and she sacrifices her husband and births dragons and pulls them from fire under the bleeding star..

So everything about Kings blood to dragon is all present in the last couple of chapters of Dany in AGOT

[Lord Varys]

From any meaningful viewpoint Daenerys Targaryen is right now the last scion and head of House Targaryen.

Everybody else is dead.

Prince Aegon could challenge her claim, and is likely to do so in the foreseeable future, but in light of the fact that he would not be able to prove his identity his claims can be (easily) dismissed. But since he is the Targaryen pretender who is first going to present himself to the people of Westeros, and since he has the looks and some old friend of Rhaegar's vouching for him, not to mention the ability to actually call upon the support of Dorne due to his alleged Martell mother, he should be able to convince quite a few people that he should be king.

Dany is the only person who should be able to challenge his claim. She definitely is a Targaryen, nobody can contest that. And unlike Aegon nobody can say she is fake nor that she has been disinherited by a Targaryen king.

The Baratheon kings are irrelevant in this regard because anybody considering a Targaryen king of Westeros doesn't care about anything Robert, Joffrey, or Tommen decreed. They are false kings and usurpers in the eyes of those people.

Jon Snow should have trouble to even prove that he has Targaryen blood, let a lone some convoluted story how he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

And even if he did that, and even if he could prove that his parents were married, half of the Realm or more is most likely going to consider the child of bigamist from his second wife anything else but a bastard. If all Jon Snow had to prove his claim was 'the truth' he should better stay dead.

The idea that anybody is going to buy his story that he is another son of Rhaegar's when such a son already showed up (and was perhaps already cast down and proven to be an impostor) makes little sense. How many hidden Targaryens are there? How much of this nonsense is the average Westerosi going to buy?

And even becoming a dragonrider doesn't prove anything. Just look how the Caltrops dealt with Ulf and Hugh.

Jon's and Tyrion's way into House Targaryen will go by adoption into the house by a member whose identity is accepted by everybody, most likely Daenerys.

She can legitimize Tyrion as a Targaryen if it turns out that he is actually her half-brother and she can also welcome her unknown nephew by Rhaegar and Lyanna into the family. If she doesn't, nobody in Westeros would see these people as a Targaryen. If Tyrion became a dragonrider in Slaver's Bay her people there might believe he is some relations of Daenerys but for the Westerosi he will remain the filthy little dwarf who murdered his own royal nephew and father. The people there wouldn't see him as a Targaryen just because he has a dragon.

The same goes even more for Jon Snow, a man who is with the Night's Watch and publicly the son of Eddard Stark. The Targaryen loyalists won't care for him at all. He can only be accepted by these people if Dany (or Aegon) recognized him as a member of the royal family.

[RedShirt47]

32 minutes ago, Nezza86 said:

I'd also wondered about Vary's riddle

There isn't really such a thing as "True" heir as there is no Supreme Court to validate such a thing. What there is instead (as in Varys' riddle) are various power bases - The Faith, The Nobles, The Merchants, The Small Folk. Who so ever can gather the strongest of these is the heir.

Jon may well be the True-born son of Rhaegar but even with irrefutable evidence of this he is unlikely to gather much support in the south.

Aegon has a great story and with Jon Connington, the Martells and some Targ regalia (Blackfyre sword, Aegon I's crown etc) he can likely gain a lot of support.

Dany has the advantage of actual dragons and this gives her a very strong power base to begin with.  Others will fall in behind her just because of them.

Cersei / Tommen have the Throne just now. She has the Faith (for now) and (many) Nobles with her. But I don't see how she can keep them as her rule has been so bad. She has angered so many people whom she needs.

Stannis will never get the Faith (and thus the small folk) due to his links with Melisandre and burning the Seven / Old Gods.

[Ser Creep]

None of the Targaryen's be they secret or not are the rightful or legal heir to the Iron Throne. They were usurped and rights of conquest has taken their dynasty out of contention. Robert's heir, whoever that may be is the rightful heir. It's Stannis I guess. The only way a Targ can be considered the rightful heir is if they take the throne back by conquest.

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

From any meaningful viewpoint Daenerys Targaryen is right now the last scion and head of House Targaryen.

Everybody else is dead.

Prince Aegon could challenge her claim, and is likely to do so in the foreseeable future, but in light of the fact that he would not be able to prove his identity his claims can be (easily) dismissed. But since he is the Targaryen pretender who is first going to present himself to the people of Westeros, and since he has the looks and some old friend of Rhaegar's vouching for him, not to mention the ability to actually call upon the support of Dorne due to his alleged Martell mother, he should be able to convince quite a few people that he should be king.

Dany is the only person who should be able to challenge his claim. She definitely is a Targaryen, nobody can contest that. And unlike Aegon nobody can say she is fake nor that she has been disinherited by a Targaryen king.

The Baratheon kings are irrelevant in this regard because anybody considering a Targaryen king of Westeros doesn't care about anything Robert, Joffrey, or Tommen decreed. They are false kings and usurpers in the eyes of those people.

Jon Snow should have trouble to even prove that he has Targaryen blood, let a lone some convoluted story how he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

And even if he did that, and even if he could prove that his parents were married, half of the Realm or more is most likely going to consider the child of bigamist from his second wife anything else but a bastard. If all Jon Snow had to prove his claim was 'the truth' he should better stay dead.

The idea that anybody is going to buy his story that he is another son of Rhaegar's when such a son already showed up (and was perhaps already cast down and proven to be an impostor) makes little sense. How many hidden Targaryens are there? How much of this nonsense is the average Westerosi going to buy?

And even becoming a dragonrider doesn't prove anything. Just look how the Caltrops dealt with Ulf and Hugh.

Jon's and Tyrion's way into House Targaryen will go by adoption into the house by a member whose identity is accepted by everybody, most likely Daenerys.

She can legitimize Tyrion as a Targaryen if it turns out that he is actually her half-brother and she can also welcome her unknown nephew by Rhaegar and Lyanna into the family. If she doesn't, nobody in Westeros would see these people as a Targaryen. If Tyrion became a dragonrider in Slaver's Bay her people there might believe he is some relations of Daenerys but for the Westerosi he will remain the filthy little dwarf who murdered his own royal nephew and father. The people there wouldn't see him as a Targaryen just because he has a dragon.

The same goes even more for Jon Snow, a man who is with the Night's Watch and publicly the son of Eddard Stark. The Targaryen loyalists won't care for him at all. He can only be accepted by these people if Dany (or Aegon) recognized him as a member of the royal family.

Well, let's wait and see, shall we. Martin has invested an awful lot into his origin. Calling it the central mystery of the series, in fact. What will be will be. 

[Nezza86]

So you think the kings blood element of the story is purely for waking dragons. and so maybe its just the love element that meant when Nissa Nissa was killed Lightbringer was ignited.

Yeah I can see how that kings blood is maybe already useful in the story. But cant argue with the fact that if a king (or queen) sacrificed themselves to the person they love or who loves them then that would be an even more powerful sacrifice i.e lightbringer.

The only thing about Dany hatching the dragons was that she killed Drogo before she burned him and it definitely wasnt that he sacrificed himself. The sacrifice was actually Mirri wasnt it? and even then she didnt offer herself up. Agreed though there was significance to Drogo being burned too.

On a total side note, I thought the location of the dragon eggs on Drogo was really interesting. Black was beside his heart, green beside his head and cream and gold between his legs.

[khal drogon]

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Ramsay is considered to be Farya's legitimate husband, due to marrying in front of a Heart Tree. The same would apply to Lyanna and Rhaegar. There is no need for a Septon.

The key is proving to the right people that it happened. I suspect the Isle of Faces is where they got married. And that the Green Men are the keepers of the secret,and that they will come into play when the time is right

This super special marriage recognized by elusive godly men protecting it as secret revealing when time comes right. Remember GRRM is not writing that kind of story. 

Ramsay's marriage had proper witnesses. Just saying few words before a tree would not make a marriage. A formal marriage should be recognized by witnesses and approved by a religious body in the case of formal religions. Even if R and L got married like you say there is a long way to go if Jon has to prove his legitimacy.

[Nezza86]

What if Jon ended up with Dark sister? and Aegon with Blackfyre? and Dany with Dawn? Who would westeros believe was the rightful heir then?

I always think that Danys really obvious link to the PTWP prophecy was classic misdirection on behalf of Georgie boy. She has literally done all the things that are needed to be the PTWP. So at 5/7 of the way to the end I think we'll see a twist come into play and Dany release shes not the heir. just my thoughts though. 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well, let's wait and see, shall we. Martin has invested an awful lot into his origin. Calling it the central mystery of the series, in fact. What will be will be. 

That could all be separate from the political crap though, right? Jon certainly could certainly play a crucial role in defeating the Others and still be a bastard born from rape. In fact, one would say that this could make it even more interesting.

And we know that even bastards can become kings, just look at Benedict Justman or Ronard Storm. But Jon is in the very bad position that he doesn't even know that he has Targaryen ancestors right now, and unlike Ronard or Benedict he can't even make use of the resources of his parents and their families right now. And even if they could, it is one thing if a royal bastard raised at court supplants his trueborn brother or a Blackwood-Bracken bastard conquers the entire Riverlands and quite another for Targaryen raised as a Stark bastard at a time when the Targaryens are actually driven into exile (and the Starks and the North pretty much destroyed) to capitalize on his heritage the same way.

[Chaircat Meow]

 

21 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well, let's wait and see, shall we. Martin has invested an awful lot into his origin. Calling it the central mystery of the series, in fact. What will be will be. 

My belief is that Jon is indeed the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he will never be king. He has also been named Robb's successor in the will, and I don't think he will ever be king-in-the-north either. Jon has had continual temptations, throughout the novels. to leave the wall and head south. Originally he is stopped by his friends, then his own stubbornness and then finally by Bowen and friends. I think it is over in terms of Jon being released from guarding the wall. I think he will return as some sort of sentient zombie and be stuck at the ends of the earth, forever. So, his paternity, and his brother's will, are going to be interesting mainly because of how other people will react to them rather than because they will lead him anywhere.  

[Nezza86]

Wow..... you're cold haha. Just kidding, I wondered if maybe we wouldn't see another POV chapter from Jon at all even though hes resurected. as in to hide his thoughts. Similar to Lady Stoneheart, I thought maybe he'd become a conduit for rhllor. But he does have kings blood and would definitely be useful to someone.

Do you think that Elia couldn't have a third child by divine intervention so that Rhaegar had to go and find someone else?

[Free Northman Reborn]

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That could all be separate from the political crap though, right? Jon certainly could certainly play a crucial role in defeating the Others and still be a bastard born from rape. In fact, one would say that this could make it even more interesting.

And we know that even bastards can become kings, just look at Benedict Justman or Ronard Storm. But Jon is in the very bad position that he doesn't even know that he has Targaryen ancestors right now, and unlike Ronard or Benedict he can't even make use of the resources of his parents and their families right now. And even if they could, it is one thing if a royal bastard raised at court supplants his trueborn brother or a Blackwood-Bracken bastard conquers the entire Riverlands and quite another for Targaryen raised as a Stark bastard at a time when the Targaryens are actually driven into exile (and the Starks and the North pretty much destroyed) to capitalize on his heritage the same way.

Well, as I have stated many times before, Jon is not going to contest for the Targaryen crown against Daenerys. He has no interest in that. But, against his own desires, this truth is inevitably going to be revealed in some dramatic way, much later in the series. And this will result in something big. Else it was a pointless mystery all along.

To loosely quote the bard, he may well "achieve greatness" independently through his own actions in the North, only for the fact that he was "born to greatness" without his knowledge to cause him to have "greatness thrust upon him" in the South.

Jon will rise to power in the North, through his Stark connections and leadership skills. Dany will conquer the South (at least Dorne, the Stormlands the Westerlands and the Reach).

At that point, the dire situation and the revelation of the "central mystery of the series" will lead to some very interesting drama. But not the type of drama that is held up as a straw man contest for Targaryen supremacy between Jon and Dany. They will become allies, and most likely Jon will become her successor after she dies in the climax of the series.

Remember, Daenerys is the conqueror. Jon is always referenced as the "King" in the foreshadowing of the Raven and other references. The one who will be the ruler for the good of the people, rather than the one who fights to capture the Throne. So while Dany may well WIN the Throne, I see her dying in the bittersweet ending, with Jon being the Aragorn who has to face the duty of figuring out tax policies and such long term issues that Martin famously referred to was not covered by Tolkien.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

10 hours ago, Rippounet said:

~~~

Now, on a different note, I believe I've explained my reasoning enough times. Feel free to dismiss it, I'm not that interested in convincing anyone.

Jeez. Over reaction doesn't suit you. However, I take responsibility in this situation because here I was thinking I found an unbiased poster ready to discuss something I also wanted to dig deeper into. Mea culpa.

I shall leave you and the other Dany rulzzz fans to the private fapping and continued fan division. 

[Nezza86]

Quote

Remember, Daenerys is the conqueror. Jon is always references as the "King" in the foreshadowing of the Raven and other references. The one who will be the ruler for the good of the people, rather than the one who fights to capture the Throne. So while Dany may well WIN the Throne, I see her dying in the bittersweet ending, with Jon being the Aragorn who has to face the duty of figuring out tax policies and such long term issues that Martin famously referred to was not covered by Tolkien.

Ditto, Jon is AA reborn and Dany is his Nissa Nissa, and if she's the true targaryen heir then her sacrifice would be really magically powerful.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

13 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

hey. "it was said" that Aerys cursed dornish. there is no "it was said" for the next sentence. It was a period. 

This made sense that they did not have firm record about what Aerys said or cursed in the court. But for something actually happened (of course not in the chaos), especially important events like naming new heir and escape of queen, they are much more sure about them. 

Again since it wasn't witnessed by Yandel and no one has ever confirmed it, it isn't a fact. It is as verified as Elia killing her children.

1 hour ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Heart tree marriages are null to the seven, not even talking about how crap the story would get..

I am sorry but by this logic at least the 30% of Westerosi nobility is bastards. Also according to the seven incest is an mortal sin and the children born by incestious marriages are abominations.

15 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I shall leave you and the other Dany rulzzz fans to the private fapping and continued fan division. 

FINALLY someone said it! 

[Chaircat Meow]

17 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Remember, Daenerys is the conqueror. Jon is always referenced as the "King" in the foreshadowing of the Raven and other references. The one who will be the ruler for the good of the people, rather than the one who fights to capture the Throne. So while Dany may well WIN the Throne, I see her dying in the bittersweet ending, with Jon being the Aragorn who has to face the duty of figuring out tax policies and such long term issues that Martin famously referred to was not covered by Tolkien.

 

I think GrrM has already done the Aragorn's tax policy stuff by showing how Jon and Dany rule in DwD. I really hope he does not feel the need to do half a book about the tax policies of whoever ends up sitting the IT, or it will be nine books before he is finished.

[Chaircat Meow]

30 minutes ago, Nezza86 said:

Wow..... you're cold haha. Just kidding, I wondered if maybe we wouldn't see another POV chapter from Jon at all even though hes resurected. as in to hide his thoughts. Similar to Lady Stoneheart, I thought maybe he'd become a conduit for rhllor. But he does have kings blood and would definitely be useful to someone.

Do you think that Elia couldn't have a third child by divine intervention so that Rhaegar had to go and find someone else?

I think he will still have povs. I think he will be messed up like SH, but not enough to justify ending the povs. Body horror is likely to play a bigger role in the series. Bran is turning into a tree, and Tyrion might be petrifying internally.