Rhaegar sacrificed himself to Robert

[Smirking Knight]

43 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

No one had to. The battle was at the Trident, both armies were there, and Rhaegar was the guy in the black and ruby army with the helm that had dragon wings. 

I think people are needlessly complicating a simple matter. Anyone can be killed. All men must die. This stuff is echoed throughout the series. Ned Stark was perhaps the best character in the books in terms of honor. Dead. Robb was kicking the Lannister army's collective posterior all over the map. Dead. Oberyn Martell was a major badass. Dead. Gregor Clegane was considered pretty much unbeatable. Dead.

Rhaegar's death happening does not require treachery, betrayal, or sacrifice for prophetic reasons. No one is invincible. Valar morghulis. 

I wonder though if Rhaegar knew this and that in turn is why he lost. According to Barristan "There was a melancholy to Rhaegar, a sense... of doom." 

Although some attribute this to the circumstances surrounding his birth and Summerhall, perhaps he, like Jojen, had seen the day he died and similarly had no way to avoid it. The Targaryens have a proven history of prophetic dreams and once he saw the events unfolding he likely  felt resigned to his fate.

 

[Nezza86]

I'm not a fan of rhaegar nor did I even say I believed the whole love story stuff. All I said was his death has a similarity to one of the few moments of blood magic that are witnesses by a POV character. 

Maybe the whole overthrowing aerys plot was actually all a ploy to engineer a meeting with Lyanna who he recognised as necessary for the prophecy he was obsessed with. I mean when the fighting was all kicking off where was rhaegar? If he wanted to dethrone his dad why would he go hide out in the tower of joy?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Just now, Smirking Knight said:

I wonder though if Rhaegar knew this and that in turn is why he lost. According to Barristan "There was a melancholy to Rhaegar, a sense... of doom." 

Although some attribute this to the circumstances surrounding his birth and Summerhall, perhaps he, like Jojen, had seen the day he died and similarly had no way to avoid it. The Targaryens have a proven history of prophetic dreams and once he saw the events unfolding he likely  felt resigned to his fate.

 

There's something to be said for that of course. It doesn't sound like he plans to lose/die when he's talking to Jaime in KL, but we don't know what he was thinking--or dreaming--the night before the battle.

[Nezza86]

I think GRRM has put enough importance into rhaegars last words that it should seem odd. Dany has a vision of it in the house of the undying. Why else would he say her name in his last moments when no one can hear him and she's miles away? 

[TheSeer27]

If Rhaegar was involved with Lyanna to fulfill a prophecy, then that's not really love. So it wouldn't make much sense for him to say her name with his dying breath. Some might say he whispered "Danaerys", who is secretly his daughter. I don't agree with this, but some might say it

[Red Man Racey]

4 minutes ago, TheSeer27 said:

If Rhaegar was involved with Lyanna to fulfill a prophecy, then that's not really love. So it wouldn't make much sense for him to say her name with his dying breath. Some might say he whispered "Danaerys", who is secretly his daughter. I don't agree with this, but some might say it

And, in the immortal words of the great philosopher, Hank Hill, we ask those people politely, yet firmly, to leave.

But in all seriousness, GRRM confirmed that the name Rhaegar whispers with his dying breath is indeed Lyanna.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

15 minutes ago, Nezza86 said:

I think GRRM has put enough importance into rhaegars last words that it should seem odd. Dany has a vision of it in the house of the undying. Why else would he say her name in his last moments when no one can hear him and she's miles away? 

A person's last words can be for themselves. If his last thought was of Lyanna, his last word being her name is not really all that unusual. What we don't know is whether his last thought was of Lyanna because he loved her, or because of the child she carried being a potential Dragon that was Promised.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

33 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Just stop lol Robert won at the trident they battled both received injuries and Robert finally smashed his chest in with his war hammer thats it. You Rhegar fans are just too much sometimes ........

Dude, leave the fandom-bashing out. People like to speculate about everything in the series, even characters they don't like.

[The Commentator]

7 hours ago, Nezza86 said:

Something has always sat a bit wrong with me in the story of Rhaegars death at the ruby ford. We know that with his final breath he murmurs a womans name but we are never told whose name it was. Of course I think most people assume it was Lyanna, and thats were i'd put my money too. But I've always wondered why he would do that, it seems a bit melodramatic and a bit pointless too. I guess we are supposed to take from it that he loved Lyanna and it hints that she eloped with him instead of him kidnapping her. But Ive just realised a parity of this with another moment in the book.

I've just finished listening to Davos Chapter 36 ASOS when Stannis frees Davos and makes him his hand. At the end of the chapter Melisandre gives Stannis leeches of Edric Storms blood which he burns as a sacrifice in the belief that Rhllor will kill the other kings in westeros. As he throws each leech into the fire he says a name of one of the other kings. Edric Storm was one of Roberts bastards and therefore has royal blood, and melisandre even says in this chapter that theres power in kings blood.

So could this, in part, explain why Rhaegar with his last breath said a womans name? The royal blood being sacrifced at the ruby ford being his own and a real true sacrifice instead of leeches of blood taken from a prisoner. The only question that leaves in my mind is; what was he choosing Lyanna for? To die? Did she have to die as well to assign their son the role of the prince that was promised and/or azor ahai reborn? Either way I dont think Robert beat Rhaegar I think Rhaegar knew he had to die to fulfill his part of the prophecy and therefore let Robert deal the killing blow.

First, I don't think Jon is Azor Ahai.  I also do not believe Rhaegar sacrificed himself.  He just lost to a better fighter.  Perhaps the war hammer has advantages over the sword for penetrating armor.  

IF (Plus-sized IF), Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child, dying would be the last thing either of them would want.  Somebody will need to survive and preferably both to look after it.

[Nezza86]

Ok that's fine, but what's your proof? Prove to me that there was nothing more to rhaegars death than what jumps off the page at you?  Why did George include a scene where rhaegar says a woman's name with his last breath. You must think that he has just had his chest caved in but  even still he's so in love that he has to say her name like some sort of action hero whose just been shot at the end of a crappy film.

Regardless of whether it was intentional or not, his method of dying has similarities to other blood magic in the series, so did rhaegar accidentally cause Lyannas death? I don't think it was an accident.

I think he originally thought he was TPTWP then found something more that suggested he had to die to ordain the real PTWP hence why he came into the yard one day and told everyone he wanted to learn how to fight. And everything else he has done was to protect his prodigy but our narrators didn't realise that and have told us snippets of the story from their own biased position.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

About Rhaegar's last word... one of the most acclaimed American films ever, "Citizen Kane," is about the quest of one man to figure out what the dying word - "Rosebud" - of a rich and famous mogul/tycoon meant.  Turns out after all his research and interviews the man can't determine the meaning of Rosebud.  The final shot of the movie are works throwing the dead moguls possessions in an incinerator, amongst them a little wooden sled the mogul had when he was 9 years old with the word "Rosebud" on it.

So "Lyanna" as Rhaegar's last word might mean anything or nothing... I'm pretty sure Rhaegar knew his taking of Lyanna was why he was being killed by Robert.  He could have said it out of remorse, regret, or no reason at all.

[Lord Lannister]

From what we've seen of Rhaegar he had a sense of dramatic sense of prophecy and doom about him, yes. If it was for the betterment of the realm and his House, I could see him suiciding against Robert, yes. But that's a hard enough sell I just can't see how it would be so. Certainly it isn't because of some blood magic triggered by his death. As he promised Jaime, after he won the Trident he was supposed to set everything to rights. That doesn't seem like the promise a man with a death wish would make.

[JLE]

15 hours ago, Smirking Knight said:

I think there's at least some credible support for Rhaegar sacrificing himself. By most accounts, once he put his mind to it he was nigh unstoppable in a fight. Robert was no slouch, obviously, but I find it hard to believe Rhaegar would go down with relative ease. Yes Robert took a wound, but Rhaegar blasted through just about everyone (including Barristan) in a tourney without slowing down.

Why let Robert win, to the ruin of his house? Aerys II was very, very suspicious of Rhaegar and came very close to favoring Viserys in terms of succession. There are decent odds that at some point Aerys might have tried to have Rhaegar and his children burned, especially if he thought Rhaegar was trying to set him aside. Robert doesn't seem much safer an option for baby Targaryens, but perhaps Rhaegar trusted Lyanna to keep their child safe somehow. 

Not true. Rhaegar seldom entered tourneys: but when he put his mind to it, he was in the top rank - perhaps of a dozen or so, any of whom could beat the rest on their day - of *jousters*, with lance on horseback, under highly formalized circumstances, one against one with the object being to unhorse the other: capable of beating the likes of Dayne or Selmy, which shows his worth (though, only at Harrenhal is he recorded as having beaten both in the same tourney: two other tourneys recorded in history, see him defeating one of that pair, but losing to the other.)

He is not, however, recorded as ever having entered a melee and fought sword to sword.

Robert Baratheon was, at best, an indifferent jouster - the best that could be said of him was that he won more than he lost, implying that in general he would be beaten by his second or third opponent: however, he excelled in the tourney melee, and is stated as having won melees (plural).

Now. In the cut-and-thrust of a real, genuine battle in which people are actually getting killed, I would trust the melee victor over the expert jouster every time. Robert was far closer to being in his element: moreover, he had fought in the front lines of several other battles of the Rebellion, whereas Rhaegar not only had been absent from the previous battles, but had not even the battle-experience of a tourney melee. That he was even capable of putting up a show against Robert at all, when the two met face to face at the Trident, is to Rhaegar's credit: but Robert was always going to be the favourite on such an occasion.

To mistake Rhaegar's jousting ability for actual battle prowess - ignoring the fact that Robert's own indifference in the joust counted for nothing when it came to real battle - shows that the poster above is making a serious miscalculation and misunderstanding of the difference between real fighting, tourney fighting and jousting - and it seems entirely plausible that Rhaegar, in fact, made the same miscalculation: and fell for the illusion that his rarely-displayed but genuine jousting ability would be worth so much as a fart in a hurricane when it came to a real battle.

I believe Loras Tyrell falls into the same trap, too... a tourney victor, but what does he achieve in REAL battles? Even Jaime, who has been both a tourney victor and a true warrior in battle, doubts Loras's chances in a real fight. At the Blackwater, all we know is that Loras was present: whereas, considering that he was up against an enemy that was massively outnumbered, already badly damaged by Tyrion's wildfire, and taken completely by surprise, AND spooked out of their wits by Garlan's "Dead Renly" act, it should have been more difficult for Loras *not* to come back with a list of achievements and a body count as long as his lance. Instead, he was just an also-ran... which is why I'm entirely prepared to believe that the story of his foolhardiness, abysmal tactics and crippling injuries at the siege of Dragonstone is in fact completely true.

Whereas, in the "Dunk and Egg" tales, Duncan is the reverse, more like Robert Baratheon: no great jouster, but better with a sword, exactly the man you want on your side at a trial-by-combat. At the tourney of Whitewalls (which turns out to be a front for the Second Blackfyre Rebellion), Duncan regrets that there is no melee at the tourney, because he would be much more comfortable in a melee than a joust - he is entering the joust hoping to win *one* bout, and fails to achieve even that, after having the misfortune to be drawn against Ser Uthor (a jouster who could actually be capable of winning tourneys himself, but always chooses to take a tumble in the later stages so as to remain beneath notice while nobody spots just how much of a steady income he is making by always reaching the quarter- or semi-finals - as he explains to Dunk the next day.)

[devilish]

16 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

No one had to. The battle was at the Trident, both armies were there, and Rhaegar was the guy in the black and ruby army with the helm that had dragon wings. 

I think people are needlessly complicating a simple matter. Anyone can be killed. All men must die. This stuff is echoed throughout the series. Ned Stark was perhaps the best character in the books in terms of honor. Dead. Robb was kicking the Lannister army's collective posterior all over the map. Dead. Oberyn Martell was a major badass. Dead. Gregor Clegane was considered pretty much unbeatable. Dead.

Rhaegar's death happening does not require treachery, betrayal, or sacrifice for prophetic reasons. No one is invincible. Valar morghulis. 

It was a battle between approximately 70,000 people, not some bar brawl. The crown prince would probably be at the rear, well defended by his own people. Any cavalry charge from his side would be well planned and heavily backed by support units to make sure that the crown prince won't get hurt. 

The fact that Robert was able to get to Rhaegar is fishy to say the least.

 

[devilish]

16 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Several misconceptions need clearing here:

1) bookish or not, Rhaegar was noted as a skilled warrior

2) Robert's army wasn't bigger than Rhaegar's. In fact, Rhaegar had 5000 more men - 40k vs 35k

3) better equipped? What makes you say so? Why would the smiths of CL be less skilled than smiths of North or Stormlands? Rhaegar has the backing of the Iron throne, he can afford the best weapons the money could get. In fact, the only advantage that Robert had was that his men were battle-tested

4) and why the hell would all of this mean that Rhaegar was betrayed? By that logic - Robert was betrayed as well - since he ended up having to fight a skilled warrior to death, receiving serious wound in the process, all without his entourage

This, this and thousand time this

 

1) He might have been a skilled warrior, but the crown prince would rarely be at the front unless of course it was safe for him to charge into battle.

2) I never said otherwise

3) The Reach has the highest concentration of knights. We can also presume that they can afford better armour for their soldiers too

4) Rhaegar represented the present and the future of the Targeryan rule. If he died, then his army would have turned tail and Robert would have won. Considering he's not a military veteran and he's leading an army who outnumber his enemy then you'll expect him to stay at the rear, something Selmy would have probably told him to do so and I am inclined to believe that Rhaegar would have agreed upon. The man doesn't come across as someone who cares about military glory. Else he would have got his hands dirty way before he actually did. 

 

You asked why I think Rhaegar was betrayed by his own men. I think the most appropriate question would be why wouldn't he not? Rhaegar's army was 40k strong. 1/4 of it was made by men loyal to the Martells. That house was objected to constant humiliation with Rhaegar cuckolding Elia and Aerys threatening to hurt the Dornish princess if they don't join the war. A big chunk of it was also made up of Tyrell forces. Mace Tyrell conveniently stayed out of the war by guarding an empty fortress for most of the time.

Another key clue were the war casualties. When the crown prince ends up fighting, then you'll expect that the army would be, as the Romans would say, going to the triarii. And yet, the casualties don't reflect that. Rhaegar died, his KG was either killed or grievously injured and yet..you barely hear of any Tyrells, Tarlys or Martells who died or got injured. Randyll Tarly is surely good with the sword and yet....he wasn't among the casualties. Oberyn is quite hot headed, yet, same thing. 

I am aware that under Robert administration things degenerated quickly for both houses. The Tyrells would have to settle the crown's bills without ever getting anything in exchange while the Martells would lose Elia and her children in the most brutal way possible. However hindsight is a wonderful thing. At that point in time these houses had to choose between an ungrateful ruling family with a mad king in command and a kidnapper waiting to succeed him and a competitor who fights his enemies today and drink wine with them tomorrow. 

 

[Knight Of Winter]

5 minutes ago, devilish said:

 

1) He might have been a skilled warrior, but the crown prince would rarely be at the front unless of course it was safe for him to charge into battle.

2) I never said otherwise

3) The Reach has the highest concentration of knights. We can also presume that they can afford better armour for their soldiers too

4) Rhaegar represented the present and the future of the Targeryan rule. If he died, then his army would have turned tail and Robert would have won. Considering he's not a military veteran and he's leading an army who outnumber his enemy then you'll expect him to stay at the rear, something Selmy would have probably told him to do so and I am inclined to believe that Rhaegar would have agreed upon. The man doesn't come across as someone who cares about military glory. Else he would have got his hands dirty way before he actually did.

2) sorry, I misunderstood you then

3) Why is this relevant - Reach troops were not in the battle of Trident, they were besieging Storm's End. Rhaegar's troops consisted of Crownlanders, various Targ-loyal houses and 10k Dornishmen. I never heard of any Reach congtignent - if it existed, it must have een small.

1) and 4) Maybe Rhaegar intentionally put himself in the front lines. Maybe his battle line got broken. Maybe he sent his guard to cover up a weak point somewhere. Maybe Robert led a group of his men with the specific aim of finding and killing Rhaegar. There are thousand of maybe-s here, so why are you so certain that Rheagar was betrayed here?

By the way, I do not see the same logic being applied to Robert. He was also a supreme general who ended up facing enemy general 1v1without entourage. So why aren't you suggesting Robert was betrayed as well?

 

Also, why the hell would Martells betray Rhaegar when Rhaegar's defeat means direct endangerment of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys? They want Elia to be queen, and they want her to be safe, secure and alive - and sabotaging Rhaegar is a excellent way to do the exact opposite.

[devilish]

2 hours ago, Knight Of Winter said:

2) sorry, I misunderstood you then

3) Why is this relevant - Reach troops were not in the battle of Trident, they were besieging Storm's End. Rhaegar's troops consisted of Crownlanders, various Targ-loyal houses and 10k Dornishmen. I never heard of any Reach congtignent - if it existed, it must have een small.

1) and 4) Maybe Rhaegar intentionally put himself in the front lines. Maybe his battle line got broken. Maybe he sent his guard to cover up a weak point somewhere. Maybe Robert led a group of his men with the specific aim of finding and killing Rhaegar. There are thousand of maybe-s here, so why are you so certain that Rheagar was betrayed here?

By the way, I do not see the same logic being applied to Robert. He was also a supreme general who ended up facing enemy general 1v1without entourage. So why aren't you suggesting Robert was betrayed as well?

 

Also, why the hell would Martells betray Rhaegar when Rhaegar's defeat means direct endangerment of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys? They want Elia to be queen, and they want her to be safe, secure and alive - and sabotaging Rhaegar is a excellent way to do the exact opposite.

2) No worries

3) It is relevant because it shows the Tyrell commitment to the cause. Their 60k horde could had stopped Robert from even going to the Trident. They could have invaded the Riverlands before the North can come to the rescue making it difficult for the rebels to build up a decent force. Instead they played it safed, ie by pissing at Storm's end walls and waiting for Robert's most unlikeable brother and baby Renly to surrender. That doesn't sound an army which is committed to the cause am I right?

4)  Rhaegar stayed out of the war as much as possible while Westeros was burning. That doesn't sound as someone who will jump for a chance to lead in the front lines. Even if that was the case, older people would have probably persuaded him not to do so and if he insisted, they would have made sure to commit as many soldiers around him as possible, with high lords bending over backwards to send their best men close to the crown prince. Think about it. If a Tyrell or a Tarly ended up saving the crown prince's life then the crown prince would be heavily indebted towards him. That didn't happen.

With Robert things are a bit different. He's battled harded, his army is outnumbered which means they need to be micromanaged or else they might turn tail and he's not as vital for the cause as Rhaegar was. If Robert died. Ned would pick up the pieces. If Rhaegar died, its game over.

5) That's the thing. Elia's life shouldnt have been endangered at all. 

a- She is innocent (actually she's a victim same as Robert)
b- She's a Martell. High Lords tend to go with kiddie gloves when dealing with these sort of people (Balon Greyjoy after he rebelled, The Lannister king after he bent the knee to Aegon etc). In matter of fact Rickard Stark saw no threat in going to KL to answer for his son's crimes.
c- She's a woman. In the age of chivarly, women were often spared.
d- Robert had built quite a reputation in forgiving his enemies. If he can forgive someone who nearly killed him then surely he would not smash an innocent, defenseless, girl with his warhammer wouldn't he?
e- Robert might lose it, but Ned and Jon Arryn were simply too honourable to allow Robert to kill Elia and her children
f- Till then Robert had never shown any ambition for the crown. Baby Aegon was innocent (and actually he's a victim of his father escapades too) and he was Robert's kin. The possibility of Robert allowing Aegon to become king with him being Lord Protector was realistically high. 
g- An ambitious Robert might have killed Aegon, however, Elia was worth more alive (as hostage) then dead. 

The royal family brought endless opportunity to Robert. By marrying Rhaenys and getting rid of Aegon, Robert would have gained the legitimacy he needed to rule. Elia on the other hand was a great hostage and would have been a great wife for someone loyal to the crown (Stannis?), making the crown less dependent on the Lannisters. Hence why Tywin made sure that that possibility is taken away from Robert. 

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

11 hours ago, devilish said:

It was a battle between approximately 70,000 people, not some bar brawl. The crown prince would probably be at the rear, well defended by his own people. Any cavalry charge from his side would be well planned and heavily backed by support units to make sure that the crown prince won't get hurt. 

The fact that Robert was able to get to Rhaegar is fishy to say the least.

 

The crown prince would in fact have been very likely to be leading his troops, as Robert would have been leading the rebels. That was kind of what warrior kings and princes did in the medieval age...literally lead their men into battle. 

But if Rhaegar was hiding at the back with his guards, then it's rather more impressive that Robert and company cut through so many thousands to get to him at the back.

The fact that Robert was able to get to Rhaegar just means the rebels were winning. Richard III had the same problem with Henry Tudor's men, and that was a fair fight so far as we know.

No matter how many people were involved it was inevitable that it would come down to Robert and Rhaegar against each other, with everyone else fading into the background as far as the two of them were concerned.

[devilish]

49 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The crown prince would in fact have been very likely to be leading his troops, as Robert would have been leading the rebels. That was kind of what warrior kings and princes did in the medieval age...literally lead their men into battle. 

But if Rhaegar was hiding at the back with his guards, then it's rather more impressive that Robert and company cut through so many thousands to get to him at the back.

The fact that Robert was able to get to Rhaegar just means the rebels were winning. Richard III had the same problem with Henry Tudor's men, and that was a fair fight so far as we know.

No matter how many people were involved it was inevitable that it would come down to Robert and Rhaegar against each other, with everyone else fading into the background as far as the two of them were concerned.

Actually the rebels weren't winning and Richard III was betrayed, The battle of Bosworth Field is exactly the battle I had in mind

[Lady Blizzardborn]

25 minutes ago, devilish said:

Actually the rebels weren't winning and Richard III was betrayed, The battle of Bosworth Field is exactly the battle I had in mind

Silly me then, forgetting the details on that one. I'm good with general history but my father and sister are better at the military aspects. Should have called Daddy first and asked. 

I have to say I've been thinking about this the last several minutes and I'm not sure I'd fault Lewyn Martell for being a bit slower than usual when it came to protecting the guy who cheated on his niece. But Barristan and Jonothor had no such motivation and we all know how good Barristan is, even 15 years later.