'The Killing Word' -- A Re-examination of the Prologue

[Pain killer Jane]

53 minutes ago, LmL said:

1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And those arrows were tipped with poison.

How are Joff's arrows associated will love? I don't see that

Not Joff's. I was referring to Moon Maid wanting to kiss the fool as in that quarrel was Cupid's arrow tipped with love but according to Cersei's bitter words love is a poison. 

53 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yeah dude, have been wondering where you been. I understand doing your own research and not having room for a whole set of new ideas though, I feel that way sometimes. That's why I sometimes cannot process what you and RR and all the other sharp pencils on first go - sometimes by brain reaches a saturation level. Anyway, you better comment soon or I will put out another podcast and you will be behind!

Actually your entire piece was extremely enlightening to the moth being a lie/broken promise research I have been working on. A greenseer's lies being given life i.e. being struck by lightning is like a moth being trapped in a lantern and then catching on fire and turns into ash. Its why the lantern bugs and the fireflies are equated several times with torches and sparks but the other side of this is the Crone letting the first raven into the world when she peered into the door of death. ETA: The raven didn't come through the door of death, she let it out of the lantern like Pandora. I plan on relating it to Tyrion's threat of turning Cersei's Joy into ashes in her mouth which is what happened to Dany when her son was burned like a moth and turned into ashes as was Drogo. 

Its actually a different take on the sword and torch Mithras symbolism. Particularly the lie being a sword in the darkness.   

I will say this given that you established the burnt sword being pulled from the burning tree is like the ember in the ashes, you didn't mention Jaime saying that Lord Rickard was wearing ashes and metal. A burning man wearing metal covered in ashes like a burning metal ember sword amidst the ashes. 

I will try to comment soon. But you will probably beat me since it is now crunch time for me. Finals start in two weeks. Research papers due and I am doing laboratory qualifications for chemistry and busy at the kennel with a lot of dogs since Memorial Day and Mother's Day are coming up.

 

[LmL]

18 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Not Joff's. I was referring to Moon Maid wanting to kiss the fool as in that quarrel was Cupid's arrow tipped with love but according to Cersei's bitter words love is a poison. 

Oh ok, that makes sense.

18 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Actually your entire piece was extremely enlightening to the moth being a lie/broken promise research I have been working on. A greenseer's lies being given life i.e. being struck by lightning is like a moth being trapped in a lantern and then catching on fire and turns into ash. Its why the lantern bugs and the fireflies are equated several times with torches and sparks but the other side of this is the Crone letting the first raven into the world when she peered into the door of death. ETA: The raven didn't come through the door of death, she let it out of the lantern like Pandora. I plan on relating it to Tyrion's threat of turning Cersei's Joy into ashes in her mouth which is what happened to Dany when her son was burned like a moth and turned into ashes as was Drogo. 

The Whitetree weirwood has ashes in its mouth too, now that I think of it.

Ok, so think about it like this. Words are swords, and swords are comets and meteors. I have settled on the hypothesis (for now) that the greenseers are generally sun or sun / comet figures, and their spirit which projects into other things is specifically the comet. In other words, things that fly from greenseers like their spirit or their words are like the comet or like meteors in some instances. So those moths, as flying things that catch on fire, would be either comets coming from the sun or meteors coming from the sun/moon conjunction or just the moon. Rhaego is an AA reborn figure, a dragon meteor (a green dragon person, symbolically, because of Rhaegal). Rhaego is AA reborn as a burning man who lives inside the ash tree, I would say. That's why the second dragon's egg to crack - Rhaegal's is linked to sounds like thunder cracking and to logs with secret hearts being touched by fire. So, the moth that is caught in the lantern would be the moon meteor or AA dragon figure who is stuck in the weirwoodnet and burned to ash, transformed into part of the ash tree. 

What's this about the first raven? This sounds like a folktale I am somehow not aware of!

18 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Its actually a different take on the sword and torch Mithras symbolism. Particularly the lie being a sword in the darkness.   

Like I was saying, the words are swords and therefore comets or meteors, and those are the celestial swords in the darkness. 

18 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I will say this given that you established the burnt sword being pulled from the burning tree is like the ember in the ashes, you didn't mention Jaime saying that Lord Rickard was wearing ashes and metal. A burning man wearing metal covered in ashes like a burning metal ember sword amidst the ashes. 

Oh that's a good one, I wanted to use that scene for the hanging but ran out of room, didn't notice the ashes part. I will find an excuse to mention it somewhere. I can't get them all! I do my best, but at a certain point I have to hit publish. It's actually fun to go back to old symbolism later and say "look, here's another!" so it's all good. 

18 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I will try to comment soon. But you will probably beat me since it is now crunch time for me. Finals start in two weeks. Research papers due and I am doing laboratory qualifications for chemistry and busy at the kennel with a lot of dogs since Memorial Day and Mother's Day are coming up.

 

Oh man, my wife is working on her MBA right now, I know how it is. You do your thing. You can always sneak my podcasts in on your commute or something, if you're not already studying on your commute. Anyway, glad my essay helped you in your own research, that's wonderful! I am well satisfied. Don't feel the need to comment if you are short on time. It's enough to know you enjoyed it.  

[Pain killer Jane]

49 minutes ago, LmL said:

Ok, so think about it like this. Words are swords, and swords are comets and meteors. I have settled on the hypothesis (for now) that the greenseers are generally sun or sun / comet figures, and their spirit which projects into other things is specifically the comet. In other words, things that fly from greenseers like their spirit or their words are like the comet or like meteors in some instances. So those moths, as flying things that catch on fire, would be either comets coming from the sun or meteors coming from the sun/moon conjunction or just the moon. Rhaego is an AA reborn figure, a dragon meteor (a green dragon person, symbolically, because of Rhaegal). Rhaego is AA reborn as a burning man who lives inside the ash tree, I would say. That's why the second dragon's egg to crack - Rhaegal's is linked to sounds like thunder cracking and to logs with secret hearts being touched by fire. So, the moth that is caught in the lantern would be the moon meteor or AA dragon figure who is stuck in the weirwoodnet and burned to ash, transformed into part of the ash tree. 

Orelle's eagle is a good example of what you are saying here since at the time of its burning, Varamyr was inhabiting it. 

You know I tend to think of moths as dirty butterflies so the AA dragon figure turning into an ash tree is the metamorphosis of the butterfly and moth. 

The weirwood with the ashes in the mouth is the bridge between the cannibalism, blood/sacrificial magic and this wanting to acquire power for the sake of getting revenge/justice. 

49 minutes ago, LmL said:

What's this about the first raven? This sounds like a folktale I am somehow not aware of!

Its this scene right here.

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The next day, as she broke her fast, Catelyn asked for quill and paper and began a letter to her sister in the Vale of Arryn. She told Lysa of Bran and Rickon, struggling with the words, but mostly she wrote of their father. His thoughts are all of the wrong he did you, now that his time grows short. Maester Vyman says he dare not make the milk of the poppy any stronger. It is time for Father to lay down his sword and shield. It is time for him to rest. Yet he fights on grimly, will not yield. It is for your sake, I think. He needs your forgiveness. The war has made the road from the Eyrie to Riverrun dangerous to travel, I know, but surely a strong force of knights could see you safely through the Mountains of the Moon? A hundred men, or a thousand? And if you cannot come, will you not write him at least? A few words of love, so he might die in peace? Write what you will, and I shall read it to him, and ease his way.

Even as she set the quill aside and asked for sealing wax, Catelyn sensed that the letter was like to be too little and too late. Maester Vyman did not believe Lord Hoster would linger long enough for a raven to reach the Eyrie and return. Though he has said much the same before . . . Tully men did not surrender easily, no matter the odds. After she entrusted the parchment to the maester's care, Catelyn went to the sept and lit a candle to the Father Above for her own father's sake, a second to the Crone, who had let the first raven into the world when she peered through the door of death, and a third to the Mother, for Lysa and all the children they had both lost.

-Cat I, aSoS

It is not even a proper sentence and a throw away thought by Cat.

What else is interesting is that Cat says that Lord Hoster (you mentioned he was wondering star figure) will not yield to death without Lysa's forgiveness almost like Lysa has condemned him to have immortality. 

49 minutes ago, LmL said:

Oh that's a good one, I wanted to use that scene for the hanging but ran out of room, didn't notice the ashes part. I will find an excuse to mention it somewhere. I can't get them all! I do my best, but at a certain point I have to hit publish. It's actually fun to go back to old symbolism later and say "look, here's another!" so it's all good. 

Glad you liked it. 

I got another one for you. 

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The woods were darkening all about him, until only the shadows of the trees remained, and the glow of his cousins' eyes. And through those and behind those eyes, he saw a big man's grinning face, and a stone vault whose walls were spotted with niter. The rich warm taste of blood faded on his tongue. 

-Bran I, aSoS

Glowing wolf eyes can be thought of as embers here. And behind the embers is the smiling man like the example you used in your essay of the smiling trees. In the chapter its Hodor but you did say that Hodor was like a weirwood. 

By the way @ravenous reader and @LmL that word Niter is another name for saltpeter. 

49 minutes ago, LmL said:

Oh man, my wife is working on her MBA right now, I know how it is. You do your thing. You can always sneak my podcasts in on your commute or something, if you're not already studying on your commute. Anyway, glad my essay helped you in your own research, that's wonderful! I am well satisfied. Don't feel the need to comment if you are short on time. It's enough to know you enjoyed it.

 

Tell her good luck.  I sneak your podcasts in when I am outside playing with the dogs. They do the head movement thing where it looks like they are trying to understand the words but they are confused and then they come up and sniff my phone and then sit down and listen with me. And thank you. It did help a lot. 

[LmL]

@Pain killer Jane you are on to that quote about that Valyrian dagger being as sharp as the difference between truth and lies right?

My next essay is going to have more clues about the meteors / AA's presence being toxic, poisonous, and the ww seem to be able to absorb and even mitigate or transmute some aspect of the poison. Remember I have been saying the moon meteors are poisonous for a while, such as in the Mountain vs the Viper scene. It's definitely a thing... plus its a thing in Lovecraft, and it seems to be a thing at Asshai... the reason there is no Asshai like fallout zone in Westeros could be the weirwoods. Perhaps there is a meteor on the Isle of Faces, and that is why nobody is allowed to go and it has to be guarded by weirwoods and green zombies or whatever. Guarded so nobody can use it, weirwoods to neutralize the poison. They might have used the meteor to make the original green zombies (or the Others) somehow, but can't let anyone else do it. Or maybe there's a meteor in the heart of winter, and it's basically making a cold version of Asshai. I liek the idea of toxic meteors, but the more important idea might be AA as the toxin in the wwnet.

[Pain killer Jane]

15 hours ago, LmL said:

@Pain killer Jane you are on to that quote about that Valyrian dagger being as sharp as the difference between truth and lies right?

Yup, Ned putting it between him and that man that speaks lies that turn into moths. The glass candles quote from the prologue of Feast relates to this as well. 

Btw I mentioned Orelle's eagle, Tormund calls the eagle a hell crow in Storm. Then Rattleshirt points at Jon and says there's your hell crow. 

15 hours ago, LmL said:

My next essay is going to have more clues about the meteors / AA's presence being toxic, poisonous, and the ww seem to be able to absorb and even mitigate or transmute some aspect of the poison. Remember I have been saying the moon meteors are poisonous for a while, such as in the Mountain vs the Viper scene. It's definitely a thing... plus its a thing in Lovecraft, and it seems to be a thing at Asshai... the reason there is no Asshai like fallout zone in Westeros could be the weirwoods. Perhaps there is a meteor on the Isle of Faces, and that is why nobody is allowed to go and it has to be guarded by weirwoods and green zombies or whatever. Guarded so nobody can use it, weirwoods to neutralize the poison. They might have used the meteor to make the original green zombies (or the Others) somehow, but can't let anyone else do it. Or maybe there's a meteor in the heart of winter, and it's basically making a cold version of Asshai. I liek the idea of toxic meteors, but the more important idea might be AA as the toxin in the wwnet.

 It makes sense that the trees are neutralizing the poison. In our real life, forest of trees are carbon dioxide sinks.

If AA was toxic to begin with before he went into the weirwood, could the trees than be sin eaters?  

[ravenous reader]

On 4/29/2017 at 6:43 PM, Pain killer Jane said:

Yup, Ned putting it between him and that man that speaks lies that turn into moths. The glass candles quote from the prologue of Feast relates to this as well. 

Btw I mentioned Orelle's eagle, Tormund calls the eagle a hell crow in Storm. Then Rattleshirt points at Jon and says there's your hell crow. 

 It makes sense that the trees are neutralizing the poison. In our real life, forest of trees are carbon dioxide sinks.

If AA was toxic to begin with before he went into the weirwood, could the trees than be sin eaters?  

I think it was @hiemal who originally had that idea of the weirwoods being carrion-/sin-eaters, hence the pun on 'sentry' with 'sin-tree', regarding the 'grey-green sentinels' with whom the weirwoods are affiliated symbolically (it's significant that both Bran and Will climb their respective sentinels, leading to a transgression).  

ETA:  Sorry PK -- After re-reading Puns and Wordplay, I now see that hiemal coined the 'sin tree' pun, however did not interpret it in your way; so the 'sin-eater' idea of the weirwood, in keeping with the conception of the 'scarecrow' scapegoat required to process the sins of the realm, is @Pain killer Jane's!

All the usual suspects are busy discussing this fascinating topic of how the trees may have been infected, poisoned, or even seeded -- inseminated -- by the magical influence of the meteors on his latest thread.  In fittingly provocative Hiemal fashion (yes hiemal, I have not forgotten 'Love's Secret Domain’ to which I the unwary was subjected...) he has entitled his thread, 'Pounding the Planet...'   Perhaps of the weirwood we ought to say too, 'oh rose, though art sick...'!

By the way, in light of the 'insemination of the planet', I've had some thoughts recently on the symbolism of milky effusions/infusions which also seem to point collectively in the direction of an extrinsic contaminant having been administered to the tree.  The tree not only harbors this noxious element, but attempts simultaneously to detoxify or wean itself of the venom. This is beginning to sound more and more reminiscent of @Voice's miasma / immune system theory!

The ones emanating from the weirwood are the Others, who are compared to 'milk'!  Are the Others some kind of toxic secretion or excretion of the weirwoods?  A toxic ejaculate..?!

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A Game of Thrones - Prologue

It was cold. Shivering, Will clung more tightly to his perch. His face pressed hard against the trunk of the sentinel. He could feel the sweet, sticky sap on his cheek.

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

 

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19 hours ago, @ravenous reader said:

(P.S.  Do you think there might be a pun on 'Lightbringer' with 'Littlefinger'...?  Just a side thought.

 

20 hours ago, @GloubieBoulga said:

 I never thought about it, but there is obviously a link between daggers and Littlefinger, throw Catelyn's chapters essentialy (and in her chapters, you find also the association between the dagger and the dawn). 

About Sweetrobin, I had read an interesting suggestion in the french forum, which explained that Lysa's soul was trying to talk to Robert (Sweetrobin) throw Marillion's voice, even after the Marillion's supposed death. I had another idea (but I'm no more sure about it) too : Marillion wasn't dead but hidden somewhere not too far from Robert, and was forced by LF to sing for make him more hill and fool, and consequently make him drink more sweetsleep.

As an ancient maiden fooled by LF, the idea of Lysa's spirit remaining and looking for revenge makes sense. In fact, LF has debts toward 3 women : Catelyn, Lysa and Sansa. 

Hi again @GloubieBoulga,    I've moved the convo over here, since I'm still fixated on the symbolic implications of the Prologue's archetypal trio, which you've awoken in me with your vision of the unspeakable taboo at the heart of the saga (yes, you're partly responsible for my unreasonable zeal), which might derail Seams' strict focus on Sweetrobin!

The suggestions from the French forum are interesting.  The last scenario is called 'gaslighting' -- toying with ones victims by making them doubt their own sanity, leading them to question their entire reality-testing framework, supplanting it instead with his.  Although this is in keeping with the pathology of Littlefinger's personality, and therefore something he might do, nevertheless I do believe Marillion went out that moon door and is dead.  So, I will rather focus on some of the symbolic elements in play that catch my eye.

Symbolically, everyone who is sent through the lip of the moon door or over the edge of the honeycombed ice cells = sky cells (both of these unorthodox exits being equivalent to leaving the Eyrie via a 'back door') into the 'bloody blue' becomes a sort of undying Other figure, or revenant, who returns to seek revenge on those who have wronged him or her.  We can think of this dynamic in terms of the Prologue as well as that scene to which we keep returning of the captive being sacrificed by the white-haired lady at the Winterfell weirwood in Bran's greenseeing 'trip'/vision.  In your concept, the sacrificed one would be analogous to Marillion or Lysa as the scapegoated sacrificial lamb, 'mutely appealing' bastard figure, etc., who is set to haunt the ages and keep returning -- that's what 'revenant' means, essentially.

Lest my readers jump to the conclusion that I am given to a perverse turn of phrase with 'back door', the concept of a weirwood having both a 'back door' and by implication a 'front door' was introduced in the context of Bloodraven's cavern (for symbolic purposes I equate hollow hills with weirwoods -- the cave and the tree are one):

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"Is this the only way in?" asked Meera.

"The back door is three leagues north, down a sinkhole."

That was all he had to say. Not even Hodor could climb down into a sinkhole with Bran heavy on his back, and Jojen could no more walk three leagues than run a thousand.

 In terms of the weirwood, the analogy to the 'front door'-'back door' in the Eyrie would be the heart tree's face, particularly red mouth (the 'bloody' part of the 'bloody blue') as front door, via which the greenseer enters the 'weirnet' (this can also be conceived of as a red door, like Dany's infamous 'red door', or vagina as @cgrav and I have been discussing -- although then I shudder to think about the implications for the 'back door';  I'll leave that up to the imagination...); and the bottomless pool at the foot of the weirwood serving as exit respectively (the 'bottomless pool' is analogous to the 'sinkhole,' since a sinkhole is basically a bottomless recess or pit).  I know the latter (the pool) is technically described as 'black' not 'blue', but remember that at night (hint: 'long night'/'underworld' arena) Stannis's bottomless blue pools for eyes are transformed into a shade as black as a dragonglass sea.  Some quotes surrounding the symbolism of bottomlessness:

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A Storm of Swords - Jon X

The wind was blowing wild from the east, so strong the heavy cage would rock whenever a gust got it in its teeth. It skirled along the Wall, shivering off the ice, making Jon's cloak flap against the bars. The sky was slate grey, the sun no more than a faint patch of brightness behind the clouds. Across the killing ground, he could see the glimmer of a thousand campfires burning, but their lights seemed small and powerless against such gloom and cold.

A grim day. Jon Snow wrapped gloved hands around the bars and held tight as the wind hammered at the cage once more. When he looked straight down past his feet, the ground was lost in shadow, as if he were being lowered into some bottomless pit. Well, death is a bottomless pit of sorts, he reflected, and when this day's work is done my name will be shadowed forever.

Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Robb. I made a botch of that. Robb had become a hero king; if Jon was remembered at all, it would be as a turncloak, an oathbreaker, and a murderer. He was glad that Lord Eddard was not alive to see his shame.

Bottomless pits are associated with death, turncloaks, oathbreakers and murderers.

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A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

Stannis turned to study him. Beneath his heavy brow were eyes like bottomless blue pools. His hollow cheeks and strong jaw were covered with a short-cropped blue-black beard that did little to conceal the gauntness of his face, and his teeth were clenched. His neck and shoulders were clenched as well, and his right hand. Jon found himself remembering something Donal Noye once said about the Baratheon brothers. Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. Uneasily, he knelt, wondering why this brittle king had need of him.

"Rise. I have heard much and more of you, Lord Snow."

And resurrection...

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The caves were timeless, vast, silent. They were home to more than three score living singers and the bones of thousands dead, and extended far below the hollow hill. "Men should not go wandering in this place," Leaf warned them. "The river you hear is swift and black, and flows down and down to a sunless sea. And there are passages that go even deeper, bottomless pits and sudden shafts, forgotten ways that lead to the very center of the earth. Even my people have not explored them all, and we have lived here for a thousand thousand of your man-years."

And seeing, in a 'sunless see/sea' kind of way...

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Stormlands: The Men of the Stormlands

The castles of the Dornish Marches are among the strongest of the realm, and for good reason, for seldom has a generation passed when they have not faced some new attack. They were established to create a bulwark against incursions from the Dornish and the Kings of the Reach. The Marcher lords are duly proud of their history as key defenders of the realm of the Storm Kings, and many are the ballads and tales of their valor.

Among the sternest of the Marcher seats are Stonehelm, the ancient seat of House Swann, with its watchtowers of black and white stone, which stands above the waters of the river Slayne with its rapids, pools, and waterfalls; Blackhaven, home to House Dondarrion, with its forbidding black basalt walls and bottomless dry moat; and Nightsong of the Singing Towers, where House Caron has held sway for many centuries. Though styled as lords of the marches, the Carons hold no dominion over the other Marcher lords; they count themselves the oldest of the Marcher houses, however (a claim the Swanns dispute), and have always been prominent in leading the defense of the stormlands.

Famous for their warriors and singers alike, House Caron has a storied history that stretches back to the Age of Heroes. The Carons are wont to say that the nightingales of their house have been seen on a thousand battlefields, and the histories show that Nightsong has been besieged no less than thirty-seven times in the last thousand years.

And singing...  This 'nightsong' of the 'nightingales' is a bit like Marillion singing after death, and the weirwoods 'rustling' their 'song of the earth'.  The 'singing tower' is like the 'wailing tower.'

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The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: The Grasslands

The horselords have only one permanent settlement: the "city" they call Vaes Dothrak, which stands beneath the shadow of the lonely peak they call the Mother of Mountains, beside a bottomless lake they name the Womb of the World. It is here that the Dothraki believe their race was born. No true city, Vaes Dothrak has neither walls nor streets. Its grassy thoroughfares are lined with stolen gods, its palaces made of woven grass.

So when Dany emerges from the frigid waters of this black bottomless lake after eating the stallion's heart, that's like the creation of the Others via the 'back door' of the weirwood (in contrast, eating the stallion's heart and bloodying her mouth is a depiction of the 'front door').  I know @LmL hates any suggestion that Dany may have icy associations, not purely fire, but that's what I'm seeing!

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A Clash of Kings - Prologue

As if in answer, Stannis kept his own whiskers cropped tight and short. They lay like a blue-black shadow across his square jaw and the bony hollows of his cheeks. His eyes were open wounds beneath his heavy brows, a blue as dark as the sea by night. His mouth would have given despair to even the drollest of fools; it was a mouth made for frowns and scowls and sharply worded commands, all thin pale lips and clenched muscles, a mouth that had forgotten how to smile and had never known how to laugh. Sometimes when the world grew very still and silent of a night, Maester Cressen fancied he could hear Lord Stannis grinding his teeth half a castle away.

"Once you would have woken me," the old man said.

This description of Stannis is strikingly reminiscent of both the weirwoods (their usually mournful, sullen expression which 'gives despair to fools,' since the fools are the ones sacrificed to the tree); and the greenseer figure(s) we've been discussing exemplified by someone such as Marillion, particularly in the sound of the grinding of his teeth which carries much like Marillion's song at night, and the 'sharply worded commands' which are like the 'swords rising to pierce Sansa in the dark' -- or in other words, 'killing words'.  

Further evidence supporting the blue-black pool as the so-called 'back door' exit of the weirwood is the scene in which Osha mysteriously arises out of the pool, startling Bran -- emerging pale, hard, angular, sharp and cold as an Other.  Note the rippling, shimmering and dancing of the water in the absence of wind, which is similar to that other scene in which Bran communicates via rustling leaves to Theon on a 'windless night', alluding to the spooky greenseer telekinesis and telepathy at work:

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A Clash of Kings - Bran II

Hodor knew Bran's favorite place, so he took him to the edge of the pool beneath the great spread of the heart tree, where Lord Eddard used to kneel to pray. Ripples were running across the surface of the water when they arrived, making the reflection of the weirwood shimmer and dance. There was no wind, though. For an instant Bran was baffled.

And then Osha exploded up out of the pool with a great splash, so sudden that even Summer leapt back, snarling. Hodor jumped away, wailing "Hodor, Hodor" in dismay until Bran patted his shoulder to soothe his fears. "How can you swim in there?" he asked Osha. "Isn't it cold?"

"As a babe I suckled on icicles, boy. I like the cold." Osha swam to the rocks and rose dripping. She was naked, her skin bumpy with gooseprickles. Summer crept close and sniffed at her. "I wanted to touch the bottom."

 

The implication of the 'front door-back door' is that when somebody went into the 'weirnet,' this was accompanied by someone else leaving (either literally someone else...or the greenseer reborn as someone else -- in any case, an 'Other'), specifically being expelled or excreted as a consequence of the intrusive, colonising presence.  Unfortunately, the eating-excretion analogy, with the doors functioning as opposite ends of the alimentary canal, works rather well!)

@cgrav:  Sidenote -- I loved your pickup on the other thread of the watchful dragon skulls with their empty sockets being analogous, or even related somehow, to the weirwoods.  I was thinking of Tyrion's scene exploring the Red Keep caverns playing kinky 'monsters and maidens' with Shae, as well as the one in which he 'thrusts' the torch into the mouth of the dragon skull, casting shadows in the process.  Besides its obvious sexual connotations, his thrusting action is reminiscent both of Dany lighting the pyre, in which the word 'thrust' is also used, in order to birth her shadows, the dragons; and also as you've highlighted the weirwoods (e.g. all those images of burnt sacrifices in the mouth, or Sam defeating the wight by shoving a burning piece of wood into its mouth, etc).  The weirwood is the 'burning bush' ignited by and igniting a greenseer in turn -- with the reciprocal projection of the Others, I believe.  I like to call these symbolic pyres 'the ignition of knowledge' -- literally, that's what we saw in the burning of the Winterfell library.

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A Game of Thrones - Tyrion II

Tyrion had a morbid fascination with dragons. When he had first come to King's Landing for his sister's wedding to Robert Baratheon, he had made it a point to seek out the dragon skulls that had hung on the walls of Targaryen's throne room. King Robert had replaced them with banners and tapestries, but Tyrion had persisted until he found the skulls in the dank cellar where they had been stored.

He had expected to find them impressive, perhaps even frightening. He had not thought to find them beautiful. Yet they were. As black as onyx, polished smooth, so the bone seemed to shimmer in the light of his torch. They liked the fire, he sensed. He'd thrust the torch into the mouth of one of the larger skulls and made the shadows leap and dance on the wall behind him. The teeth were long, curving knives of black diamond. The flame of the torch was nothing to them; they had bathed in the heat of far greater fires. When he had moved away, Tyrion could have sworn that the beast's empty eye sockets had watched him go.

 

 

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

Jhogo spied it first. "There," he said in a hushed voice. Dany looked and saw it, low in the east. The first star was a comet, burning red. Bloodred; fire red; the dragon's tail. She could not have asked for a stronger sign.

Dany took the torch from Aggo's hand and thrust it between the logs. The oil took the fire at once, the brush and dried grass a heartbeat later. Tiny flames went darting up the wood like swift red mice, skating over the oil and leaping from bark to branch to leaf. A rising heat puffed at her face, soft and sudden as a lover's breath, but in seconds it had grown too hot to bear. Dany stepped backward. The wood crackled, louder and louder. Mirri Maz Duur began to sing in a shrill, ululating voice. The flames whirled and writhed, racing each other up the platform. The dusk shimmered as the air itself seemed to liquefy from the heat. Dany heard logs spit and crack. The fires swept over Mirri Maz Duur. Her song grew louder, shriller … then she gasped, again and again, and her song became a shuddering wail, thin and high and full of agony.

And now the flames reached her Drogo, and now they were all around him. His clothing took fire, and for an instant the khal was clad in wisps of floating orange silk and tendrils of curling smoke, grey and greasy. Dany's lips parted and she found herself holding her breath. Part of her wanted to go to him as Ser Jorah had feared, to rush into the flames to beg for his forgiveness and take him inside her one last time, the fire melting the flesh from their bones until they were as one, forever.

 

Sorry for the lengthy digression, let's return to the symbolism of Marillion in the Eyrie:

Marillion abounds with greenseer symbolism.  In that quote I provided on Seams' thread in the context of Sweetrobin as a Lightbringer figure set to slay Littlefinger's lies, together with Sansa's fog of self-deception; Sansa imagines the scapegoated singer huddled under a fur skin (like a skinchanger) singing songs on his harp (like a greenseer).  And as Littlefinger himself has noted, 'a harp can be as dangerous as a sword in the right hands', spreading inflammatory knowledge I'd reckon; therefore he had to be quelled.  Additionally, the name 'Marillion' is a nod to Tolkien's posthumous work 'The Silmarillion' conceptualizing the world as the creation or emanation of one über-deity's thought-song, eventually giving rise to a duet on a mass scale in which the harmonious voice on the one hand duels eternally with the dissonant trickster voice on the other, thus creating music and thereby the world and all the beings in it.  Music is war!  ( @hiemal you might like this, since you introduced the 'Songlines' creation-of-the-world concept earlier in the thread when musing on the function of the word in oral- vs. writing-based cultures; sorry I never replied; sometimes I get writer's block, believe it or not, especially pondering some of your replies, but they never go unappreciated!  )

So, in terms of my Prologue scheme-- sorry, I know you are all bored of it, yet I am still fascinated! --  Will like Littlefinger is the 'trickster' or 'blue falcon' (in the military sense of the idiom of a 'backstabber' or 'buddy-fucker' kinslayer essentially, since fellow soldiers fighting together in a unit often feel very close to each other, to the extent of frequently thinking of and referring to each other as 'brother', e.g. Robert and Ned's relationship forged and cemented in wartime, or the Night's Watch 'brothers').  Waymar like Marillion or Lysa is the sacrifice in the scenario, and when he is wighted he becomes the revenant Other who returns to cash in the debt by killing the one in turn who originally sicked the 'killing word' on him.

 I also think 'the debt' which you referenced is related to the 'promise' we keep hearing about, as in a kind of 'promissory note'  -- 'the prince who was promised', 'promise me,' 'broken promises' eliciting curses, etc -- the promise being a kind of curse or sorcerous binding.  Accordingly, I believe the Others represent the backlash set in motion by the original betrayal committed by the original 'blue falcon', whoever he was...

 

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20 hours ago, @GloubieBoulga said:

Yes, you must be right with the 2 greenseers. I was stayed with 1 greenseer and 1 skinchanger, but the 2 greenseers match well. I recently found that the "dupe" (and officialy bastard one) could be the giant too. The giant finally killed by a bird and his songs/words. Robert and Tyrion are both associated with giants, and the Vale is also identificated with the Giant's Lance. 

(I really wonder now what will happen with Robert Strong and Cersei : for me they are a new tandem where Robert Strong has replaced Jaime, but I don't developp here, because it's out of subject)

I'm curious to hear your thoughts about Robert Strong and Cersei?  (Don't worry about 'derailing' my threads -- I think a preoccupation with 'derailing' and its officious policing is an affectation.)  

Accusations of conflation notwithstanding, I don't really draw world-shattering distinctions between all the manifestations of what I collectively refer to as 'third eye' power.  Greenseeing is just another form of skinchanging -- basically it's skinchanging a tree -- so that's why I referred to two greenseers duelling over a third object.  

I agree that the dupe is frequently associated with giants.  Alternatively, the trickster character might be the one who elevates himself to giant status by standing on the figurative or literal shoulders of another, much as Bran does first in the literal and then in the virtual cage-basket of Hodor -- is Hodor the giant or is Bran?  The 'giant' in the former sense can be thought of as a ladder, used by another to climb to the stars (the way Bran and Will both use sentinels in their respective fateful scenes)-- so basically the Promethean ladder of ambition -- and the price of ascending this ladder is murder.  

Think of the scene of Jaime watching the washerwomen jousting mounted on the shoulders of men, which reminds me of the Braavosi assassins' waterdancing duels, as well as Symeon Star-Eyes watching the hellhounds fighting.  All three of these scenes can be read as greenseers duelling in the 'weirnet' or 'sea/see', if you're familiar with my concept.  Symbolically the washerwomen are related to prostitutes, crows (camp followers), assassins, mummers, singers, trees and seas -- in other words, skinchangers/greenseers!

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell III

There was a chill in the air, but the night was not half so foggy as some. Sam was grateful for that much. Sometimes the mists covered the ground so thick that a man could not see his own feet. Once he had come within a step of walking into a canal.

As a boy Sam had read a history of Braavos and dreamed of one day coming here. He wanted to behold the Titan rising stern and fearsome from the sea, glide down the canals in a serpent boat past all the palaces and temples, and watch the bravos do their water dance, blades flashing in the starlight.

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: Braavos

The swordsmanship of the bravos of the Secret City is as famed as the beauty of her courtesans. Largely unarmored, and wielding slender pointed blades far lighter than the longswords of the Seven Kingdoms, these warriors of the streets practice a swift, deadly style of fighting. The greatest bravos call themselves water dancers, given the custom of dueling upon the Moon Pool near the Sealord's Palace; it is claimed that true water dancers can fight and kill upon the pool's surface without disturbing the water itself.

 

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

This was the castle where King Sherrit had called down his curse on the Andals of old, where the 'prentice boys had faced the thing that came in the night, where blind Symeon Star-Eyes had seen the hellhounds fighting. Mad Axe had once walked these yards and climbed these towers, butchering his brothers in the dark.

The action of climbing (a fiery ladder, tower or sentinel/weirwood, etc.) is associated with the crime of kinslaying.  'Butchering ones brothers in the dark' I'd venture is associated with sorcery, as I've posited was depicted on an allegorical level in the Prologue.

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A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

 "Ser Rodrik should teach me to use a poleaxe. If I had a poleaxe with a big long haft, Hodor could be my legs. We could be a knight together."

 

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AFFC -- Jaime

 

 Down beside the river, he watched two washerwomen jousting in the shallows, mounted on the shoulders of a pair of men-at-arms. The girls were half-drunk and half-naked, laughing and snapping rolled-up cloaks at one another as a dozen other men urged them on. Jaime bet a copper star on the blond girl riding Raff the Sweetling, and lost it when the two of them went down splashing amongst the reeds.

Across the river wolves were howling, and the wind was gusting through a stand of willows, making their branches writhe and whisper. Jaime found Ser Ilyn Payne alone outside his tent, honing his greatsword with a whetstone. "Come," he said, and the silent knight rose, smiling thinly. He enjoys this, he realized

 

 @Pain killer Jane has also brought up a kind of 'washerwoman' in the context of Arya washing the steps of Harrenhal, which is linked to the weirwoods (via the wailing of the ghosts, for example, which is analogous to the rustling of the leaves conveying the True Tongue speech of the singers/grenseers).  And like the weirwoods, Harrenhal has been burnt by dragons. 

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A Clash of Kings - Arya VII

I should have let the fire have them. Gendry said to, I should have listened. If she hadn't thrown them that axe they'd all be dead. For a moment she was afraid, but they rode past her without a flicker of interest. Only Jaqen H'ghar so much as glanced in her direction, and his eyes passed right over her. He does not know me, she thought. Arry was a fierce little boy with a sword, and I'm just a grey mouse girl with a pail.

She spent the rest of that day scrubbing steps inside the Wailing Tower. By evenfall her hands were raw and bleeding and her arms so sore they trembled when she lugged the pail back to the cellar. Too tired even for food, Arya begged Weese's pardons and crawled into her straw to sleep. "Weese," she yawned. "Dunsen, Chiswyck, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling. The Tickler and the Hound. Ser Gregor, Ser Amory, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, King Joffrey, Queen Cersei." She thought she might add three more names to her prayer, but she was too tired to decide tonight.

 Ironically, the attempt at 'whitewashing' (i.e. figuratively trying to ameliorate or worse, cover up a deception or crime, e.g. like plying Sweetrobin with white milky 'sweetsleep') causes her hands to bleed as she scrubs, almost in vain, to clear the blood-sodden mortar of the ages, symbolically.  The futility of reversing original sin is graphically represented by Arya here, since it would be impossible to properly clean stairs to an immaculate white as one goes about scrubbing the same stairs on bloody hands and knees, serving only to 're-smear' the surfaces with the same substance one is trying to eradicate or hide!

Traditionally, sacrifices have been made throughout history to buildings and buried under the foundation, in order to consecrate their construction-- see 'building sacrifice -- foundation deposit'.  In this vein, Harren impregnated Harrenhal's mortar with the blood of the slain, just as the weirwoods have been impregnated with and consecrated by the blood of those sacrificed to them.  

With literally bleeding hands, Arya, like Will in the Prologue, is 'red-handed', therefore the implication is she too like Will has blood on her hands in figurative terms.  Notice that her 'prayer' like Will's is not benign -- it's a prayer made up of 'killing words' (the list of the names of people she's designated for death).  AN ASSASSIN'S PRAYER sung to the 'faceless, nameless' one she summoned from a weirwood.  

Given that Harrenhal is a weirwood metaphor (particularly in its history of being burnt by dragons), the staircase Arya scrubs can be read as the spine of the beast or axis of the world tree -- a ladder to the stars, like Jacob's ladder (PK  -- have you seen Blake's painting showing the serpentine steps of Jacob's Ladder?) or the fiery ladder climbed by the mage in Qarth that Dany sees.  The tree is the ladder from which one sees, hears-- and falls.

Initially, I had thought that climbing the 'ladder' or riding on the back of a second party merely enabled an ambitious trickster to kill a third, but there are also indications that the 'ladder' or 'giant' itself is sacrificed in the exchange.  A prime example of this pattern would be Tyrion who is actually a dwarf assuming giant status by sacrificing another, Dontos, whom he uses a ladder, mounting him in order to cloak Sansa.  In this scenario, both Dontos and Sansa are sacrificial objects.  

Transposing Tyrion with Littlefinger, another little man who is able to cast a giant shadow by walking on others and committing the odd strategic murder; we can see that Littlefinger exploited Dontos in similar fashion, including literally killing him, in order to possess Sansa.  As another example, in the Prologue -- read allegorically, not literally -- Will uses the 'giant' sentinel as a ladder in order to set his 'killing words' (the treacherous 'whispered prayer' summoning demons) against his brother.  In some way this giant has also been sacrificed in the exchange, as attested to by the 'sticky sap' like blood covering Will's hands and face, which is later reiterated when Will is literally covered in his brother's blood when Waymar comes over to strangle him.  

So, two figures are murdered.  Moreover, the murder can be understood as a marriage and vice versa.  The marriage to the tree is a murder; the murder of Waymar is a marriage by which he became bound up in the spell of the greenseer, hence the 'stickiness' of the 'sticky sap' binding the parties together like glue.  The sentinel is a 'stand-in' for the weirwood, or even better, 'weirwood net', the trees also frequently referred to throughout the text as 'giants,' which form a gigantic sprawling interconnected network.  The weirwoods also bleed 'sticky sap', mutely attesting to the travesty of what has taken place, so the greenseers having invaded them can also be seen as a rape (like Varamyr 'forcing himself inside' Thistle who has weirwood features in that scene), the woman or tree having been sacrificed for the greenseers' own ambitious purpose (waging war against their own brothers).  

A greenseer war.

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Some books. I like the fighting stories. My sister Sansa likes the kissing stories, but those are stupid."

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies," said Jojen. "The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood."

Bran's eyes widened. "They're going to kill me?"

 

@hiemal This is for you.  Haunting and unforgettable, the best cinematic representation of the weirwood as a living, interactional archive of eternal voices (including of 'killing words') that I've seen:

 

The following is an attempt at an English translation of some of the texts making up the interwoven tapestry of thoughts overheard telepathically by the angels (here the greenseer figures) in the library (=weirwood/weirnet).  As a caveat, however, I should add that this clip is incomplete, compared to the one above, as one of the commentators was quite correct in criticizing the editing of this particular video for omitting the scene involving the Hebrew reading of the Book of Genesis -- which as s/he pointed out is pretty significant to this movie's premise (and that of the weirwoods)!

 

'Epic of Peace'...

@Macgregor of the North and @Dorian Martell's son, I know you are both united in your contempt for my 'killing word' hypothesis, dismissing my allegorical reading of the Prologue in favour of the literal -- so maybe you can briefly commiserate and keep things civil ...  .  Have a look at these videos from the movie 'Wings of Desire' or in the original German 'Himmel über Berlin' ('Heaven over Berlin'), focusing on how different people in the library seem to demonstrate different degrees of psychic awareness in their ability to sense and react to, even interact with (I'd call it 'third-eye' aptitude), the angels, the latter being the greenseer analogues here.   Particularly, check out the last clip 'Epic of Peace' -- very apropos with respect to the two of you, LOL -- with the old man meditating on why no one has succeeded in singing an epic of peace, nor is it a tale worth telling, the 'unkilling' word an impossibility it would seem ...I'm sure you'll both relate .  But the real reason I called you over here -- besides that I must be bored of the peaceful ambience of this slumbering thread of mine -- is to take note of how he reacts to the presence of the angel hovering over him, beginning at about 1:20.  That's exactly how I imagine Ned doing the startle-lift head-who's there-frown routine, ha ha.  Thought you guys might enjoy that (or not...)!  Addendum:  just to clarify so that there's no misunderstanding -- though a multitude of dead men are singing songs, the action in the library is all transpiring in the present.

[hiemal]

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 

Sorry for the lengthy digression, let's return to the symbolism of Marillion in the Eyrie:

Marillion abounds with greenseer symbolism.  In that quote I provided on Seams' thread in the context of Sweetrobin as a Lightbringer figure set to slay Littlefinger's lies, together with Sansa's fog of self-deception; Sansa imagines the scapegoated singer huddled under a fur skin (like a skinchanger) singing songs on his harp (like a greenseer).  And as Littlefinger himself has noted, 'a harp can be as dangerous as a sword in the right hands', spreading inflammatory knowledge I'd reckon; therefore he had to be quelled.  Additionally, the name 'Marillion' is a nod to Tolkien's posthumous work 'The Silmarillion' conceptualizing the world as the creation or emanation of one über-deity's thought-song, eventually giving rise to a duet on a mass scale in which the harmonious voice on the one hand duels eternally with the dissonant trickster voice on the other, thus creating music and thereby the world and all the beings in it.  Music is war!  ( @hiemal you might like this, since you introduced the 'Songlines' creation-of-the-world concept earlier in the thread when musing on the function of the word in oral- vs. writing-based cultures; sorry I never replied; sometimes I get writer's block, believe it or not, especially pondering some of your replies, but they never go unappreciated!  )

I love it so much I want it to bear me little bastards of Nightsong!

Marillion with his own nightsongs that so trouble Sansa and Sweetrobin vexes me as well. I've fallen a bit behind so I'm going to be playing catch-up but I think the idea of Nightingales might possibly deserve its own thread.

[hiemal]

A small and respectful spitball on blue falcons and possible weasel words:

I have been pondering for a while what seems to me to hints of dichotomy between the image the clansmen of the Mountains of the Moon put out and the actuality. For example- Shagga's constant threats to cut of so-and-so's manhood and feed it to goats becomes less savage when we discover he identifies manhood with chins not crotches (as well as more suitable to a goats diet). The Black Ears maim their enemies, the Burnt Men maim themselves; I'm not saying they aren't rough but could it be that they shackled themselves with some kind of honor that keeps them earthbound while the hollow lords soar?

[Pain killer Jane]

7 minutes ago, hiemal said:

A small and respectful spitball on blue falcons and weasel words:

I have been pondering for a while what seems to me to hints of dichotomy between the image the clansmen of the Mountains of the Moon put out and the actuality. For example- Shagga's constant threats to cut of so-and-so's manhood and feed it to goats becomes less savage when we discover he identifies manhood with chins not crotches (as well as more suitable to a goats diet). The Black Ears maim their enemies, the Burnt Men maim themselves; I'm not saying they aren't rough but could it be that they shackled themselves with some kind of honor that keeps them earthbound while the hollow lords soar?

I would say no as it doesn't take into account the 'as above so below' theme we see. You can soar and be without honor and you can fall into the darkness and be without honor. The other half of the blue Falcon is if those blue falcons work towards redemption.

And there is another them and that is that the origins of the Blue Falcon is rooted in an inverted assumption "that the common man or the salt of earth is good." Take it like this a Blue Falcon got lucky and flew but the root or dream that set him on that path to becoming a Blue Falcon began with the wish to not be a common man. 

Martin flat out says that the common man going around killing lords and heros are dangerous. It's in the Dunk and Egg books.

[hiemal]

20 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I would say no as it doesn't take into account the 'as above so below' theme we see. You can soar and be without honor and you can fall into the darkness and be without honor. The other half of the blue Falcon is if those blue falcons work towards redemption.

And there is another them and that is that the origins of the Blue Falcon is rooted in an inverted assumption "that the common man or the salt of earth is good." Take it like this a Blue Falcon got lucky and flew but the root or dream that set him on that path to becoming a Blue Falcon began with the wish to not be a common man. 

Martin flat out says that the common man going around killing lords and heros are dangerous. It's in the Dunk and Egg books.

Hmmm, which would make the Moonmen at best griffins masquerading as shadowcats and at worst revolutionaries- failed falcons? All shaped by envy, but only one way to soar. I think I am beginning to understand.

 

[Pain killer Jane]

7 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Hmmm, which would make the Moonmen at best griffins masquerading as shadowcats and at worst revolutionaries- failed falcons?

 

I don't consider them failed as it is repeatedly said that the mountainmen come down on their prey. They come from the high ground down to attack but are considered low born scum. And since the Mountains of the Moon are in the Vale of Arryn it is safe to say that the moon is a blue traitor's moon. 

[hiemal]

12 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I don't consider them failed as it is repeatedly said that the mountainmen come down on their prey. They come from the high ground down to attack but are considered low born scum. And since the Mountains of the Moon are in the Vale of Arryn it is safe to say that the moon is a blue traitor's moon. 

Good point. Now that I come to think of it, there an awful lot of these falcon-types from the Vale. TBH, I even have some very tinfoily suspicions about Dolorous Edd.

[Pain killer Jane]

5 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Good point. Now that I come to think of it, there an awful lot of these falcon-types from the Vale. TBH, I even have some very tinfoily suspicions about Dolorous Edd.

Oh Edd with his Toilet humor. I consider him to be an example of the expression being "down in the shit". Since being down in the shit is hailed as a virtue especially in the context of a soldier's experience in war and Edd and his toilet humor find themselves in some shit at the wall. I like Edd so I hope he doesn't become Merritt Frey and become "shit out of luck". 

By the way the down in the shit theme is played out for us in the taking of Meereen through the sewers and bringing down the Eastern Gate which is interesting when you consider that the Andals began their conquest from the East through the Vale of Arryn. 

[ravenous reader]

4 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Oh Edd with his Toilet humor. I consider him to be an example of the expression being "down in the shit". Since being down in the shit is hailed as a virtue especially in the context of a soldier's experience in war and Edd and his toilet humor find themselves in some shit at the wall. I like Edd so I hope he doesn't become Merritt Frey and become "shit out of luck". 

By the way the down in the shit theme is played out for us in the taking of Meereen through the sewers and bringing down the Eastern Gate which is interesting when you consider that the Andals began their conquest from the East through the Vale of Arryn. 

Well the words of House Toilet, I mean Tollett...are 'When all is darkest...'

You and @hiemal are taking us down a dark route via the 'back door' of the Eyrie, a scatalogical path of fraught symbolism I had hoped not to have to explore any further...

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

I love it so much I want it to bear me little bastards of Nightsong!

Marillion with his own nightsongs that so trouble Sansa and Sweetrobin vexes me as well. I've fallen a bit behind so I'm going to be playing catch-up but I think the idea of Nightingales might possibly deserve its own thread.

Do you think there's a wordplay going on with 'nightsong' and 'nightsoil'?  Sweetrobin threw a pail of nightsoil over Maester Colemon...What do you think that signifies?  PK, is Sweetrobin's nightsoil and Marillion's nightsong perhaps the antidote to the pernicious 'whitewashing'?

[Pain killer Jane]

8 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I think it was @hiemal who originally had that idea of the weirwoods being carrion-/sin-eaters, hence the pun on 'sentry' with 'sin-tree', regarding the 'grey-green sentinels' with whom the weirwoods are affiliated symbolically (it's significant that both Bran and Will climb their respective sentinels, leading to a transgression).  

ETA:  Sorry PK -- After re-reading Puns and Wordplay, I now see that hiemal coined the 'sin tree' pun, however did not interpret it in your way; so the 'sin-eater' idea of the weirwood, in keeping with the conception of the 'scarecrow' scapegoat required to process the sins of the realm, is @Pain killer Jane's

 

 

Thank you. And I want to point out that the sin eating in conjunction with Varamyr's recollection of his brother going into everything and Arya washing blood with blood is the war path of the acquisition of Mana and thus power. 

I have more for you. 

[hiemal]

20 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Oh Edd with his Toilet humor. I consider him to be an example of the expression being "down in the shit". Since being down in the shit is hailed as a virtue especially in the context of a soldier's experience in war and Edd and his toilet humor find themselves in some shit at the wall. I like Edd so I hope he doesn't become Merritt Frey and become "shit out of luck". 

 

Me too. He's one of my favorites- he reminds me of Eeyore.

20 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

 

By the way the down in the shit theme is played out for us in the taking of Meereen through the sewers and bringing down the Eastern Gate which is interesting when you consider that the Andals began their conquest from the East through the Vale of Arryn. 

Hmmm that could almost work literally in Westerosi geography- the displaced hungry Manderly's at Westeros' Mouth, the "Arm of Dorne" in the middle, the guts of the Stormlands, to the arse of the Vale.

 

[Pain killer Jane]

11 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Well the words of House Toilet, I mean Tollett...are 'When all is darkest...'

You and @hiemal are taking us down a dark route via the 'back door' of the Eyrie, a scatalogical path of fraught symbolism I had hoped not to have to explore any further...

Do you think there's a wordplay going on with 'nightsong' and 'nightsoil'?  Sweetrobin threw a pail of nightsoil over Maester Colemon...What do you think that signifies?  PK, is Sweetrobin's nightsoil and Marillion's nightsong perhaps the antidote to the pernicious 'whitewashing'?

lol everything goes to shit eventually......

I think it is part of the cycle. The throwing of the  bucket of nightsoil and the night song can be seen as tools for mocking (The brown dragon, Merritt Frey being forced to eat buckets of shit) and therefore it would be considered the catalyst to seeking revenge and then that revenge is whitewashed to become justice and then later on justice can become shit again both as a good thing or bad thing (Sandor going on and on about knights not having honor and Jaime having shit for honor when we know that he saved a lot of people and therefore that shit was good.)

By the way there is an aspect of the growth cycle that is often forgotten in the analogy @hiemal used. It is the fact that we feed plants fertilizer i.e shit in order to make them grow stronger.

personally I like to think that it isn't from dust to dust but it's from shit to shit. 

ETA: and it explains the joke Robert told to Ned about the hand taking the shit but Ned says that the saying is what the King dreams the hand builds. The hand builds with shit especially when you join that to the Bricks and Blood built Astapor saying. The Brick is made with shit and the mortar holding them in place is blood. 

[Pain killer Jane]

11 hours ago, hiemal said:

Me too. He's one of my favorites- he reminds me of Eeyore.

Hmmm that could almost work literally in Westerosi geography- the displaced hungry Manderly's at Westeros' Mouth, the "Arm of Dorne" in the middle, the guts of the Stormlands, to the arse of the Vale.

 

Eeyore was my favorite growing. Everyone else was always too much. 

The arm of Dorne could be considered part of the broken sword/castration theme and therefore the Penis of Westeros. It's why we have the Daynes of Starfall and other Morningstar people found in Dorne and the Stepstones (@ravenous reader this is the burning Jacob's ladder on its side and thank you for the image of the ladder) as pieces of the broken arm has AA/ Morningstar associations. ETA: @ravenous reader and @LmL I thought of something, that if Nyssa Nyssa is both the moon and a weirwood, then the wailing sound that follows is Martin answering the question, "if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound. His answer is would be yes because no one is still someone. That's why we have forgotten people as no ones. 

I think of the reach to be the guts of Westeros since the Reach has all this creeping vines symbolism and that makes me think of the green snake intestines.

I would say that yes the Vale can be considered the Arse but that is in the expression 'having a stick up your ass' (which is translated into Salla telling Davos he sat on a spear too long) as an insult to people that take themselves seriously or an insult to snooty people which the Arryns do.

ETA: I have a shitty sense of humor tonight. Btw RR, I also think the whitewashing and the original intoxication can be considered covering someone with shit per measter cressen pointing out that the gargoyles are covered in the shit of ravens and since birds shitting on someone is considered good luck, then those gargoyles have shit for luck. The reason I say the it is the original intoxication or poison is because bird shit carries diseases like Histoplasmosis or Psittacosis which is also transmitted from bird feathers. So all those writing quills and fletched arrows are indeed toxic.

[hiemal]

Bah

[LmL]

13 hours ago, hiemal said:

I love it so much I want it to bear me little bastards of Nightsong!

Marillion with his own nightsongs that so trouble Sansa and Sweetrobin vexes me as well. I've fallen a bit behind so I'm going to be playing catch-up but I think the idea of Nightingales might possibly deserve its own thread.

The prologue of AFFC is a thorough parallel to the short story "The Nightingale and the Rose" by Oscar Wilde. The original story is conveniently filled with Lightbringer-compatible symbolism. Read the story and then reread the AFFC prologue and you will see it easily. The Nightingale itself appears in the AFFC prologue.