Werthead Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Yeah, that was leaning into the wind of being spoilerific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 This is such a bummer to hear (from the review), Spoiler When I reviewed TGO one of my fears was that much of the theorizing about the story would end up having little payoff, and the endless ruminating on small conversations among heavy lifters or the speculation on specific verb choices would simply have zero payoff. I am far more convinced about that theory at this point. This series has a lot of interesting concepts, but it is not particularly interested in exploring them or making them pay off later. If those payoffs occur they happen in some other series, perhaps, but after 7 books, multiple short stories and a lot of online asking and talking the most obvious conclusion is that this is simply not as deep a story as some would project into it. It is certainly the case that nothing in TUC proves this theory incorrect; there are plot payoffs, but not theme ones. Keep in mind that I still theorize about what might be a payoff and how cool certain things might be - and it's certainly possible that there will be amazing payoffs going forward. But if there are, it hasn't been realized yet. But one must also take the other theory at heart: that this was considered to be a great payoff by the author, where he lays everything bare, and that this surface level of detail is really all there is here. Some answers are provided, but they are not particularly interesting answers and tend to be fairly, well, plain as far as they go. Most of the deep seated mysteries which are answered are answered by essentially one-word statements, which was not particularly satisfying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Spoiler To be really clear, the actual ending of Cabin in the Woods has like nothing to do with the end of TUC; it's simply an example of how abrupt the end of TUC is. TUC really could have used a denouement like TTT had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 29 minutes ago, Hello World said: This is such a bummer to hear (from the review), It's obviously YMMV. For some people I suspect that the payoff will be fine, and it's a really entertaining book by itself (well, at least the last 250 pages; the first 150 or so aren't that great). Oh right, something I wanted to say - I have no idea what @bakkerfans is talking about for at least two of his teasers. Not a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarcellus Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Beyond the propaganda, as someone who has been following and discussing this series for years, what did you think, KB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Sarcellus said: Beyond the propaganda, as someone who has been following and discussing this series for years, what did you think, KB? ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarcellus Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 What? I don't buy that KB posted only to tell us how much he was dissatisfied with the narrative. I mean, white knighting aside, he clearly doesn't read and discuss this series just to shit on it and warn fans not to read. Especially, given that he's spent the time to procure the fifth ARC available. When it's just him and the book, do you really believe he's sitting there remarking to himself how much it sucks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Yeah what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, Sarcellus said: What? I don't buy that KB posted only to tell us how much he was dissatisfied with the narrative. I mean, white knighting aside, he clearly doesn't read and discuss this series just to shit on it and warn fans not to read. Especially, given that he's spent the time to procure the fifth ARC available. When it's just him and the book, do you really believe he's sitting there remarking to himself how much it sucks? The real reason I posted was precisely so that I could take shit from randoms with Bakker screen names and 30 or so posts. You've found me out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Quote Oh right, something I wanted to say - I have no idea what @bakkerfans is talking about for at least two of his teasers. Not a clue. That's a good point actually. Not sure what he's going on about in some of those. On the discussion about the depth of the story and themes and other stuff: I would say the principle metaphysical questions which people spend enormous amounts of time talking about here are things that Bakker is interested in, but knows that he can't go into in as much depth because this is already a pretty complex story compared to most epic fantasies and also because this is an epic fantasy story told from the POV of a society poised somewhere between Ancient Greece and the Crusades, and whilst he can use Greek philosophy to explore things he can't really bring in complex quantum concepts and hard SF ideas (note that Kellhus and Saubon lack the terminology to describe even the digital countdown clock on the nuke). TUC does nod at this - several of the glossary entries employ a bizarre new terminology which I think will engender a lot of discussion - but there's a limit on what Bakker can have his characters, even the Consult, do. I think Bakker has, several times, made a choice between accessibility and going all out into the thematic wankery of this series and always chooses accessibility, perhaps aware of that highly mixed results Erikson had being going into the thematic morasses of several books of the Malazan series (which is how we ended up with Toll the Hounds). In fact, speaking to Bakker a decade ago, he said that he had originally envisaged TAE as being much more "hardcore" on the philosophical/thematic stuff with lots of new characters and ideas but had changed his mind after reading A Feast for Crows (!) and decided to root the new storylines and developments in either the original characters or in the bare minimum possible of new characters, all related (literally or figuratively) to existing ones. I think this choice was ultimately the wiser one, especially if he wants the series to ever really take off in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Oh yeah - I think that it's a major choice and a deliberate one - there are certainly places in TUC where it would have likely made sense to go full infodump mode if that was desired. That's one of the reasons why I think that the level of navelgazing is probably too high amongst fans - because at this point the choice is pretty clearly weighted towards 'cool plot shit' and away from 'cool worldbuilding shit'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, Werthead said: That's a good point actually. Not sure what he's going on about in some of those. That's based on the version of the manuscript that he received almost 8 months ago (by looking at the pictures on his twitter)... things could have changed since then. I guess we can ask him if he spotted any differences between that manuscript and the official arc that he received recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madness Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Super intrigued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Just now, Hello World said: That's based on the version of the manuscript that he received almost 8 months ago (by looking at the pictures on his twitter)... things could have changed since then. I guess we can ask him if he spotted any differences between that manuscript and the official arc that he received recently. Guess that's reasonable. In which case at least two things were completely edited out that would have been, well, a really friggin big deal, and I'm extra bummed that at least one of them didn't make it in. I mentioned with TGO what things I'd have people focus on in prior reads for added enjoyment and got some reasonably positive feedback on it, so I'll continue with TUC. This shouldn't be spoilery either, but just in case. Spoiler Every single mention that one of the god-entangled (like Psatma) or the God-aware (Meppa) has of Kellhus Virtually any mention of Moenghus the younger, especially his conversations with Sorweel The introduction to the Dunyain in Ishual and their storyline How the White Luck Warrior sees Kelmomas How Sorweel thinks of Sranc Kellhus and his 'voices' Celmomas seeing an Anasurimbor at the end of the world Any of the Daimotic stuff from TTT or really anywhere else, but especially TTT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuenjato Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 34 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Oh yeah - I think that it's a major choice and a deliberate one - there are certainly places in TUC where it would have likely made sense to go full infodump mode if that was desired. That's one of the reasons why I think that the level of navelgazing is probably too high amongst fans - because at this point the choice is pretty clearly weighted towards 'cool plot shit' and away from 'cool worldbuilding shit'. So there isn't a "g-string" moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 15 minutes ago, kuenjato said: So there isn't a "g-string" moment? I guess there is - but it's not particularly revealing. It's a g-string on a barbie doll. Spoiler As Pat mentioned in his review there is almost no time spent with the actual Consult. For a book called The Unholy Consult there isn't a lot of them. That ends up not mattering that much to the overall story's culmination or direction, but it does mean that if you're looking for a lot of cool shit about the Inchoroi or Shae or Mek or anyone you're going to be disappointed. It's one of the reasons that I think that this is really all there is, and if you're looking for more about things or think that <x> is extremely meaningful, you're wasting your time. @lokisnow once offered the notion that the best way to interpret PoN/tAE is to simply take it at its basic word, and that seems accurate. Answers are given, but the answers are not particularly special or meaningful, and I get the impression that that's about as good as you're going to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheep the Evicted Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 On 21/05/2017 at 6:39 PM, Werthead said: Part 7 of the History of Earwa, covering the Great Ordeal. Now working on the PDF version, which I'm going to run by Scott and Jason to see if we can get some more excitement for the series building. So Wert are these summaries your own interpretation or do you run them by bakker first ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuenjato Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 9 hours ago, Sheep the Evicted said: So Wert are these summaries your own interpretation or do you run them by bakker first ? At least one TUC spoiler in there, too, so read with care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 12 hours ago, Sheep the Evicted said: So Wert are these summaries your own interpretation or do you run them by bakker first ? Mine. I ran Part 1 by Bakker a year ago because I really wanted that map with the Nine Mansions on it. Quote At least one TUC spoiler in there, too, so read with care. I'm a bit puzzled by this. I was left in no doubt that Serwa destroyed Ishterebinth - or at least that chamber - when Sorweel freed her. TUC actually doesn't dwell on this too much so it's actually possible that I may have overstated this on the blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Spoiler Yeah, that wasn't my take on it at all, but TUC doesn't make it particularly clear one way or another honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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