Heresy 198 The Knight of the Laughing Tree

[Black Crow]

  

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Yes, but it is a concrete example even if it is Stark livery and because it is Stark livery.  You could also say that Lyanna was spattered with the blood that ensued in her name; but was innocent or blameless of the charge.

True and that would in turn imply she was a victim rather than a willing consort

[Black Crow]

As we're now on page17 if anybody wants the honour of producing the OP for Heresy 199 they need to get it to me quick. 

[PrettyPig]

My mind goes again to soiled septas - pure and unclean at the same time.

Interesting that GRRM made sure to highlight that Lemore had borne a child - some profound implications there if this was intended to be a major part of the JonCon narrative.

If Aegon, Lemore, and the rest of the Shy Maid crew (possibly mummers hired by Varys?) are acting as stand-ins for the original players in a JonCon-led baby smuggling operation, a septa with markings of a prior pregnancy  - but no child in tow to show for it - is quite the unique box to check, no?    In order to pass the Jon Connington sniff test, they need to find specifically a soiled septa.

"CASTING:   female, long dark hair, born between 260-270, enough knowledge of the Faith of the Seven to pass as a septa.   Must have given birth prior to approximately 288 and show visible signs of prior pregnancy.   Child cannot be present at any point for the duration of this long-term contract."

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

My mind goes again to soiled septas - pure and unclean at the same time.

Interesting that GRRM made sure to highlight that Lemore had borne a child - some profound implications there if this was intended to be a major part of the JonCon narrative.

If Aegon, Lemore, and the rest of the Shy Maid crew (possibly mummers hired by Varys?) are acting as stand-ins for the original players in a JonCon-led baby smuggling operation, a septa with markings of a prior pregnancy  - but no child in tow to show for it - is quite the unique box to check, no?    In order to pass the Jon Connington sniff test, they need to find specifically a soiled septa.

"CASTING:   female, long dark hair, born between 260-270, enough knowledge of the Faith of the Seven to pass as a septa.   Must have given birth prior to approximately 288 and show visible signs of prior pregnancy.   Child cannot be present at any point for the duration of this long-term contract."

LOL! Or she never was a godswife but only acting as one.  She later changes into a new disguise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah

[PrettyPig]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Or she never was a godswife but only acting as one. 

Yep!   Did  I ever cover the idea of the "sacred prostitute" anywhere?   This totally relates to your godswife idea.

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Yep!   Did  I ever cover the idea of the "sacred prostitute" anywhere?   This totally relates to your godswife idea.

Ashara/Asherah? Are we being told something about Septa Lemore?

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

My mind goes again to soiled septas - pure and unclean at the same time.

Interesting that GRRM made sure to highlight that Lemore had borne a child - some profound implications there if this was intended to be a major part of the JonCon narrative.

If Aegon, Lemore, and the rest of the Shy Maid crew (possibly mummers hired by Varys?) are acting as stand-ins for the original players in a JonCon-led baby smuggling operation, a septa with markings of a prior pregnancy  - but no child in tow to show for it - is quite the unique box to check, no?    In order to pass the Jon Connington sniff test, they need to find specifically a soiled septa.

"CASTING:   female, long dark hair, born between 260-270, enough knowledge of the Faith of the Seven to pass as a septa.   Must have given birth prior to approximately 288 and show visible signs of prior pregnancy.   Child cannot be present at any point for the duration of this long-term contract."

I assume everyone already heard me say Septa Lemore is Aegon's real mother

[WeKnowNothing]

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

The only time the crown is described inclusive of a romantic interest specific to Lyanna is when Meera tells Howland's version of the story to Bran.  Again I think it's projection on the part of the story-teller; reflective of their own feelings about awarding such a laurel.  Ned is the only character who knows what truly happened and he doesn't include romantic intent.  So I think that's very telling.

 

I won't be able to quote word-for-word from the books, but there are several characters who refer to    Rhaegar crowning Lyanna:

Ned - who remembers Rhaegar riding past his wife Elia to crown Lyanna as 'Queen of Beauty.' Though remember that GRRM never added the word 'love' into the term until later. 

Meera and Jojen narrating Howland's story - she says that Rhaegar crowns Lyanna as 'the Queen of Love and Beauty.' Meera and Jojen must be narrating exactly what Howland had told them, and Howland knows a lot about Rhaegar and Lyanna, possibly as much as Ned. The Reed kids are also very surprised that Bran hasn't ever heard this story from Ned, and this is what I feel is most telling. 

Daenearys - she knows that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna 'Queen of Love and Beauty,' eventhough his wife was also present at the tourney. Obviously she would have heard this from Viserys, who would have heard it earlier from Willem Darry - who would have received this info from Targearyen loyalists at the time of Aerys's reign. But even so, these Targearyen loyalists aren't so biased, as they do accept Aerys was mad and had to go - yet they do not feel the same for Rhaegar, who was his son.

In AWOIAF, written by Maester Yandel, as a gift to Robert/Joffrey/Tommen (basically for Baratheon loyalists) - Yandel writes that Rhaegar 'had shocked those present by riding past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to crown the Lady Lyanna Stark as Queen of Love and Beauty.' This is written way after the first book, but it is a gift which should be biased towards Baratheons and Lannisters, and this favours the Targearyens more. 

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

I am not on the same page as you with respect to RLJ.  If there was a secret marriage, it's more likely in my view, to have been Robert that she wed.  When Lyanna tells Ned that 'love is sweet, but  it won't change a man's nature'; the common interpretation is that she is acknowledging that Robert loves her.  But I think it's entirely possible that she is talking about her own feelings of love and her fears about Robert's fidelity.

Lyanna secretly marrying Robert? That is more unlikely than Jon NOT turning out to be the result of R+L. And that's been confirmed by now. And anyway, where and when would she have been able to marry Robert? The tourney of Harrenhal is the only place they are said to have been together, which was just for about a week. After Harrenhal, Lyanna is said to have stayed there (or went with Brandon to the Riverlands) and Robert went back to the Vale with Ned and Jon Arryn where he stayed until the war started. Then nearly a year later she was abducted/ran off with Rhaegar, which was near the God's eye/isle of faces - implying they got married here (which in turn made the Kingsguard stay at the tower in the first place, because R+L were married). 

Ned is remembering her saying 'love is sweet, but it won't change a mans nature,' when learning about the number of Roberts bastards and women he had sex with. Ned insists to Lyanna that Robert would love her, and stay true to her because of this love. But Lyanna disagrees with this and just says that even if Robert loves her, he won't change his nature (whoring/drinking) just for her. Then in the books, Ned himself admits that Lyanna was right about Robert. 

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

As a political target and valuable hostage; it makes sense that Lyanna would have to disappear for her own safety.  She may also have been adbducted. 

She would only be a political target the time Rhaegar runs off/abducts her. She is one of the main ties to the whole 'southern ambitions' marriages (you can choose your own meaning for that). Then when she is pregnant with Rhaegar's child, she is more valuable to the Targearyen family and their loyalists, as the child is important to furthering the Targearyen line. By this point, she would also need to stay hidden, as her childs life would be in danger if the rebel forces (the Starks, Baratheons, Aryyns, etc) find out about her pregnancy.

[PrettyPig]

19 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I assume everyone already heard me say Septa Lemore is Aegon's real mother

Possible...she does show him a great deal of genuine affection.

My personal crackpot is that Illyrio's wife Serra is the mother - whether Aegon is Illyrio's son or some rando Valyrian-looking paying customer from the pillowhouse where Illyrio says he found her, who knows...although my bet is on the rando, fwiw.   Whoever did the deed,  I think that Illyrio held blonde-haired blue-eyed Serra that he says he loved sooooo much in something of a brood-mare situation of servitude, and after she birthed this Targaryen-looking son , he then had her killed so she wouldn't talk.  Because, as we know, someone would tell.  Someone always tells.  

Illyrio keeps the child for himself, sends him off to be raised in secret, and a few years later when fAegon had reached an age where he looks like he *might* pass for Rhaegar's son in years as well as looks, he is delivered to JonCon...who already knows that Rhaegar's son had been smuggled away long ago, and therefore totally believes the mummer's trick.

 

My burning question is, in this scenario, whether or not the REAL Aegon is still alive.  The conspiracy theorist crackpot me says yes, absolutely, and we are familiar with him, but the rational me says that Varys and Illyrio found him first and had him killed too  (a repeat of Dance also).

 

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

My burning question is, in this scenario, whether or not the REAL Aegon is still alive. 

No.  If it's an important character, we should care about him.  And 'Young Griff' makes me yawn.  Who else do you suggest this 'real Aegon' is?

[Brad Stark]

I suspect Serra and Lemore are the same person and Illyrio is the father.   But even if I am wrong, Varys and Illyrio (who I suspect both have Backfire blood) are trying to put a Blackfire on the throne by passing him off as Rhaegar's son.  JonCon joining the golden company after Illyrio's son started looking very much like a Targaryen made the Aegon plot an easy thing to come up with.

[PrettyPig]

53 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

No.  If it's an important character, we should care about him.  And 'Young Griff' makes me yawn.  Who else do you suggest this 'real Aegon' is?

Ha!  I may have to plead the Fifth on this one so as to retain any shred of credibility I might have left after peeling off all this tinfoil....it's pretty out there.       

That being said, there are some pretty subtle details about this character that while individually aren't that big a deal,*could*, if you squint fairly hard and tilt your head a bit to the left, in aggregate point to a Targaryen/Martell combo.   (That's the important part - not just Targaryen or Valyrian, because we know those are all over, but specifically a mix of Targ and Martell traits.)

I can lay it out if you like, you just have to promise not to laugh!!

ETA:   On the contrary though, there is a SSM quote floating about somewhere - @Black Crow has dropped it in posts before and may be able to dig it up again - in which GRRM says something to the effect of "The child in the [HotU] vision is dead."

I went round and round with that one in my head, trying to figure out a way to reconcile my suspicion of Real Aegon being actually alive at the end of the war while being dead "now" in current day, and the only thing I could come up with was that he was tracked down and murdered like some of his Dance predecessors.

 

37 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I suspect Serra and Lemore are the same person and Illyrio is the father.

But Lemore still has hands.... 

 

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

My burning question is, in this scenario, whether or not the REAL Aegon is still alive.  The conspiracy theorist crackpot me says yes, absolutely, and we are familiar with him, but the rational me says that Varys and Illyrio found him first and had him killed too  (a repeat of Dance also).

We know Rhaenys is dead because GRRM said so.  So unless someone intentionally swapped one kid and left the other to die, which makes no sense to me, both are dead.

[ravenous reader]

1 minute ago, PrettyPig said:

Ha!  I may have to plead the Fifth on this one so as to retain any shred of credibility I might have left after peeling off all this tinfoil....it's pretty out there.       

That being said, there are some pretty subtle details about this character that while individually aren't that big a deal,*could*, if you squint fairly hard and tilt your head a bit to the left, in aggregate point to a Targaryen/Martell combo.   (That's the important part - not just Targaryen or Valyrian, because we know those are all over, but specifically a mix of Targ and Martell traits.)

I can lay it out if you like, you just have to promise not to laugh!!

I would never laugh at any of your theories. You are one of the few people who actually understands Littlefinger!

I just don't care a damn about the character  (purple-eyed 'Aegon'/'Griff')-- so either that is a fault on GRRM's part; or he really isn't important!

[PrettyPig]

5 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

So unless someone intentionally swapped one kid and left the other to die, which makes no sense to me, both are dead.

I think this is basically what happened.    Rhaenys wasn't in line for the throne, so there was no urgency to get her out like there was with Aegon.   Also, I don't think she was left there to die - IMO the plan was to have Jaime (yes, you read that correctly) protect both her and Elia from harm...but as Jaime decided that slashing Aerys' throat took precedence, he failed in his duty.  Not as a KG, but in the promise he made to Rhaegar.
 

Quote

 

The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.”

“He was your king,” said Darry.

“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.

“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king . . .”

“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.

“Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn.

“The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.

 

 

 

[Brad Stark]

If anything,  that's proof Illyrio is lying.  Illyrio may very well have a pair of stone hands.  Greyscale doesn't literally turn a person into stone, we don't see the hands, so they indeed could be rotten diseased flesh.  But it takes years for a person to die in agony, and they are usually exiled first.  So either Illyrio cut off his wife's hands at the beginning of the disease before she got bad or kept his contiguous wife around for years in agony to have a souvenir or he is lying. 

[PrettyPig]

11 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I would never laugh at any of your theories. You are one of the few people who actually understands Littlefinger!

I just don't care a damn about the character  (purple-eyed 'Aegon'/'Griff')-- so either that is a fault on GRRM's part; or he really isn't important!

Yay!   I will cobble my 'evidence' and present it in this thread or the next if it's not clogging things up too much.  Certainly not on topic, but then again neither are the last 8 or so pages, so.....

Agree on YG....snooze city.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

I think this is basically what happened.    Rhaenys wasn't in line for the throne, so there was no urgency to get her out like there was with Aegon.   Also, I don't think she was left there to die - IMO the plan was to have Jaime (yes, you read that correctly) protect both her and Elia from harm...but as Jaime decided that slashing Aerys' throat took precedence, he failed in his duty.  Not as a KG, but in the promise he made to Rhaegar.
 

Yes, that quotation makes sense and also introduces another factor in suggesting Rhaegar was alive to the possibility of Lanister treachery while he was off to the Trident. Even Gregor Clegane would have hesitated if Jaime was standing in his way.

[Black Crow]

OK we have a problem. For the very best of reasons and entirely outside her control Leech isn't able to finish the Citadel OP in time for 199. Does anybody have something suitable and ready to plant? 

If all else fails I'll did something out of the archives to fill the gap, but if there's something new...

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

Hi Black Crow and everyone else. I haven't been on the Westeros forums for a good 2 Years but have just started a re-read (well listen actually) which prompted me to come back on. Great to see you all still going strong. 

Keep hereticing.

Capon Breath