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Discussing Sansa XXIX: On all fronts...

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16 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I've read this argument a trillion times and it's maybe the most outdated argument in GOT's history and the answer is so simple, It does not even require 5 seconds of thinking :

 If Sansa wanted to betray Jon : Jon is an obstacle for her to get the north then she would let Ramsay kill him in the BotB and then attack Ramsay with the Vale's army but she did save Jon from Ramsay with the vale's army

I suggest to rewatch the season : she told him to wait and he refused then she made a call to the Vale's army and the army saved the day, you can't blame Sansa for the stubbornness of Jon, he did things as he likes so she did things as she likes, in the end, the result is that she saved Jon and Winterfell.

I can reverse the question and ask : why Jon doen't want to listen to Sansa and it still a completely valid question.

No, I blame Sansa for not disclosing that there was a giant army at her disposal and thus, by holding back this information, getting a lot of her family's allies killed and almost getting Jon killed.  And when Jon asks her what her ideas are, she tells him she doesn't know anything about military strategy....so not sure other than nonsense dialogue what her problem was 'listen to me'  'oh wait, i have nothing to offer' LOL

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I see other posters saying that Sansa now owns LF and I don't see that at all.  Why is she allowing LF to follow and advise her on Winterfell issues? Why is he even there? His presence allows others at the castle to think he has some right at Winterfell.  Sansa complains to Jon that he will not listen to her, but she is willing to at least be seen as conferring with the man who gave her to a rapist? And we do know Arya is coming and I have always preferred Arya's direct way of dealing with issues. I think Arya will have very little to do with an indirect approach.  I have a hard time seeing them get along.

Spoiler

According to spoilers, Arya is the one to kill LF, not Sansa, and that does not surprise me at all. 

 

Edited by lakin1013

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9 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

No, I blame Sansa for not disclosing that there was a giant army at her disposal and thus, by holding back this information, getting a lot of her family's allies killed and almost getting Jon killed.  And when Jon asks her what her ideas are, she tells him she doesn't know anything about military strategy....so not sure other than nonsense dialogue what her problem was 'listen to me'  'oh wait, i have nothing to offer' LOL

Given her previous experiences with LF, I doubt she trusted him. She sent a raven asking for help; but she had no way of knowing if help was forthcoming.  Especially since at her last meeting with LF she basically told him to F off. I agree it would have been a wise decision on her part to tell Jon. I guess D&D wanted the dramatic effect of the battle is lostt then in comes the Vale to save the day, but that could have been accomplished by other means. I chalk it up to poor writing myself. 

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17 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

No, I blame Sansa for not disclosing that there was a giant army at her disposal and thus

And I blame Jon for not listening to Sansa.

17 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

almost getting Jon killed

Attacking Winterfell as soon as possible was Jon's decision, she saved him, he did thnigs his way and she did things her way ans the result was that her way was better.

It is theme of the relation Jon/Sansa now : he do things his way and she do things her way and we as viewers we choose what is the better based on our preference

Edited by Future Null Infinity

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14 hours ago, Thor Odinson said:

As has been commented on repeatedly, Sansa spent her life being trained to be the lady of a household, which means this is all stuff she's been brought up to do since she was a little kid. 

And it's always ridiculous how Sansa saved the North and Jon from being wiped out by the Boltons by getting the army of the Vale on their side, and yet some people keep declaring that "treason." Seriously, people, try looking the word "treason" up in a dictionary, because some of you think it means the exact opposite of what it actually means.

:D  :D

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8 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

And I blame Jon for not listening to Sansa.

Attacking Winterfell as soon as possible was Jon's decision, she saved him, he did thnigs his way and she did things her way ans the result was that her way was better.

It is theme of the relation Jon/Sansa now : he do things his way and she do things her way and we as viewers we choose what is the better based on our preference

There was nothing to listen to.  She had no advice.

Quite frankly they are both failures, neither of them were capable of rallying the North against Ramsay.  

 

Edited by Cas Stark

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39 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I can reverse the question and ask : why Jon doen't want to listen to Sansa and it still a completely valid question.

Really?

From S06E09:

Quote

 

Jon: When will we have a larger force? We have pleaded with every house that will have us. The Blackfish can't help us. We're lucky to have this many men.

Sansa: It's not enough.

Jon: I know(or No?) it's not enough. It's what we have. Battles have been won against greater odds.

 

Maybe this was THE chance to tell about the Knights of the Vale.

I'm not blaming Sansa for it. I'm just tired of D&D's poor writing skills. I have even cancelled HBO this year.

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14 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

There was nothing to listen to.  She had no advice.

she told him to wait and try to make a bigger army.

But it doesn't matter now, as I said, it became a theme in the show : Jon take a decision --> Sansa make an objection, Sansa take a decision --> Jon make an objection.

It's more real like this and I really like it, it is a good competition for the good of Winterfell, she don't listen to him and he don't listen to her, no need to put a character in higher position above the others

Edited by Future Null Infinity

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Just now, Future Null Infinity said:

she told him to wait and try to make a bigger army.

But it doesn't matter now, as I said, it became a theme : Jon take a decision --> Sansa make an objection, Sansa take a decision --> Jon make an objection.

It's more realist like this and I really like it, it is a good competition for the good of Winterfell, she don't listen to him and he don't listen to her, no need to put a character in higher position above the others

LMAO.  And all the while she knew exactly where to get a bigger army , but never mentioned it......that's why people call her treasonous.  

I understand the show wrote it that way so they could have a tah dah shocking last minute save that everyone already knew was coming, but it doesn't change the fact that the way they wrote her makes her an awful, untrustworthy person who should be under house arrest right now not blabbing to the armory about leather breastplates.

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

but it doesn't change the fact that the way they wrote her makes her an awful, untrustworthy person who should be under house arrest right now not blabbing to the armory about leather breastplates.

Everything depends on the perspective, you saw it that way but I didn't see it the same way

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8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

LMAO.  And all the while she knew exactly where to get a bigger army , but never mentioned it......that's why people call her treasonous.  

I understand the show wrote it that way so they could have a tah dah shocking last minute save that everyone already knew was coming, but it doesn't change the fact that the way they wrote her makes her an awful, untrustworthy person who should be under house arrest right now not blabbing to the armory about leather breastplates.

It's almost as if D&D want viewers to doubt Sansa . . . .

No no no, that can't be it.

I'll never understand why people like to paint character flaws as weak writing. Sansa is a flawed human being. So is Jon. They struggle to trust eachother not because they don't care about eachother, but because they doubt the other's competency.

Edited by ThePukwudgie

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49 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

 

  Hide contents

According to spoilers, Arya is the one to kill LF, not Sansa, and that does not surprise me at all. 

 

according to the spoilers,

Spoiler

Sansa is the one who sentences LF to death.

 

13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I understand the show wrote it that way so they could have a tah dah shocking last minute save that everyone already knew was coming, but it doesn't change the fact that the way they wrote her makes her an awful, untrustworthy person who should be under house arrest right now not blabbing to the armory about leather breastplates.

In their mind she did not commit a treason, she made a big mistake and then apologized for it.

Edited by winter daughter

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8 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

It's almost as if D&D want viewers to doubt Sansa . . . .

No no no, that can't be it.

I'll never understand why people like to paint character flaws as weak writing. Sansa is a flawed human being. So is Jon. They struggle to trust eachother not because they don't care about eachother, but because they doubt the other's competency.

I see the opposite.  The show wants me to see Sansa as a 'player' a 'boss.ass.individual' who is strong and strategic and commanding, sympathetic and with leadership qualities.

Even though the scenes they actually write shows that she's such a dummy she doesn't even realize that calling her brother out in public repeatedly is bad form.  It is absolutely bad writing.  There are at least a dozen examples of the writing of Sansa being opposite what the show desires the viewer to take away from the scene.

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25 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

I'll never understand why people like to paint character flaws as weak writing. Sansa is a flawed human being. So is Jon. They struggle to trust eachother not because they don't care about eachother, but because they doubt the other's competency.

Because the flaw you are speaking of, doesn't exist in the canon of the TV show. You want to say that Sansa betrayed Jon? She didn't, because the show itself doesn't make it a treason. The writers don't want us to see that as a treason, and they have pointed that out through the fact that no one in the GoT-Universe sees it that way. 

That is the problem here. We can't discuss "Sansa's treason" as it simply doesn't exist in the show. Whether we like it or not, whether we personally think otherwise, all of that is irrelevant. In the show, that was not the treason and the story ends there.

Of course Sansa is a flawed being. The fact that she was capable of letting dogs eat Ramsay speaks a lot. But we can't hold her accountable for something that is not in the GoT-Universe. There she didn't betray Jon and that is why this is so pointless.

1 hour ago, lakin1013 said:

I see other posters saying that Sansa now owns LF and I don't see that at all.  Why is she allowing LF to follow and advise her on Winterfell issues? Why is he even there? His presence allows others at the castle to think he has some right at Winterfell.  Sansa complains to Jon that he will not listen to her, but she is willing to at least be seen as conferring with the man who gave her to a rapist? And we do know Arya is coming and I have always preferred Arya's direct way of dealing with issues. I think Arya will have very little to do with an indirect approach.  I have a hard time seeing them get along.

  Reveal hidden contents

According to spoilers, Arya is the one to kill LF, not Sansa, and that does not surprise me at all. 

 

When Brienne asked her about LF staying in WF, Sansa clearly answered that they need his men. Sansa knows that LF controls Sweetrobin and thus all the armies of the Vale. If he wants to be there, as their ally, he has every right to be there. 

Sansa and Arya are different, as Ned said, sun and moon. But, above everything, they are sisters. They are part of the same pack. We have seen how Sansa sweetly remembered that Arya was a tomboy as well as Arya thinking about her. They may have different approaches to things, but that is what Starks need now. Strengths in different areas, on all fronts :) There is a reason why Arya is better than Sansa in some things, as well as why Sansa is better than Arya in others. That is how a pack of wolves work. Every wolf has its role. And the two of them will have their own roles to play.

Spoiler

According to spoilers, as I understood them, LF's downfall came from both sisters. Arya didn't just wake up and killed him.

 

28 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I see the opposite.  The show wants me to see Sansa as a 'player' a 'boss.ass.individual' who is strong and strategic and commanding, sympathetic and with leadership qualities.

Even though the scenes they actually write shows that she's such a dummy she doesn't even realize that calling her brother out in public repeatedly is bad form.  It is absolutely bad writing.  There are at least a dozen examples of the writing of Sansa being opposite what the show desires the viewer to take away from the scene.

I would agree. But, we have to work with the things they give us and points they make. 

 

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On 8/2/2017 at 5:56 PM, Future Null Infinity said:

And I blame Jon for not listening to Sansa.

And that's fine. It's not like Sansa would be the first person real or fictional to tell a commanding officer they disagree with their decision on some matter. Still it's not much of an excuse to hold back critical and relevant information from them.

 

On 8/2/2017 at 5:54 PM, SansaJonRule said:

I guess D&D wanted the dramatic effect of the battle is lostt then in comes the Vale to save the day, but that could have been accomplished by other means. I chalk it up to poor writing myself. 

This is essentially the culprit. It was poor writing. And unfortunately it doesn't work.

I think D & D were trying to pull off two things here: 1) to have their big surprise of the Vale army coming in the last minute to save the day, which of course makes Ramsay look like an idiot. Evidently, he can find 20 good men to infiltrate Stannis' camp, but can't find that many to do recon or act as look outs. It's amazing the Vale Army can march that far into the North and nobody notices. And 2) they were trying to make the point that Sansa is smart/cunning. And I don't have a problem with them showing that. But, the way they did it was really dumb and made her look bad. I'd imagine the great bulk of military disasters happen because of communication failures or coordination failures. You don't hold that kind of information from a commander in the field. Even if you only suspected an army like the Vale was in the area, a rational person would report that.

Edited by OldGimletEye

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41 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I see the opposite.  The show wants me to see Sansa as a 'player' a 'boss.ass.individual' who is strong and strategic and commanding, sympathetic and with leadership qualities.

Even though the scenes they actually write shows that she's such a dummy she doesn't even realize that calling her brother out in public repeatedly is bad form.  It is absolutely bad writing.  There are at least a dozen examples of the writing of Sansa being opposite what the show desires the viewer to take away from the scene.

I disagree. If what you say is true, Jon would be failing at a comically-high frequency. I think all the writers want to do is show the complications of playing this game, and how neither Jon nor Sansa are right, but they do need eachother.

 

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1 minute ago, ThePukwudgie said:

I disagree. If what you say is true, Jon would be failing at a comically-high frequency. I think all the writers want to do is show the complications of playing this game, and how neither Jon nor Sansa are right, but they do need eachother.

 

Jon in the show is a huge failure, again, if you look at what the actions and the writing are showing and not the unearned benefits.  He and Sansa were unable to secure the loyalty of the Northern lords to fight Ramsay. Everyone told them no.  Then,   Jon then went suicidal and attacked. Then, for no discernable reason, the Northern lords who told them to fuck off, now are back to being loyal Stark allies even making him King in the North.   Jon continues to hold these mass meetings without consulting Sansa in advance so they bicker in public.  Then, he flits off to Dragonstone and starts ranting to a room of total strangers about "the army of the dead"..no envoy, no letter, no proof no nothing.  He shows up with Davos and a couple a red shirts, nothing and nobody else.  He is as much of a loser as Sansa based on what is written in the script, and not on how it all works out feel good/fist bump style in the end.

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4 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And that's fine. It's not like Sansa would be the first person real or fictional to tell a commanding officer they disagree with their decision on some matter. Still it's not much of an excuse to hold back critical and relevant information from them.

Sorry but it wasn't an excuse, I don't make excuses for fictional characters, I was speaking about the perspective of the viewers, some make of an event a very big deal (like the never ending actual "he must not kneel" trend)  and some see the same event as very trivial.

one can blame Sansa and I can blame Jon but it doesn't matter, and like you said it is like a human relationship and for me it is good for the story.

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41 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I see the opposite.  The show wants me to see Sansa as a 'player' a 'boss.ass.individual' who is strong and strategic and commanding, sympathetic and with leadership qualities.

Even though the scenes they actually write shows that she's such a dummy she doesn't even realize that calling her brother out in public repeatedly is bad form.  It is absolutely bad writing.  There are at least a dozen examples of the writing of Sansa being opposite what the show desires the viewer to take away from the scene.

And SO definitely NOT what a lady would do! She is Catelyn Tully's daughter. Can anyone picture Cat contradicting Ned in public, or arguing with Rob in public when he was king in the north?

On the other hand, people who say she was "all her life" being trained to be the Lady ... well, it should have been, but in fact the show did not establish it, at least as I can recall. All we saw was some embroidery in the sewing room and a mention that she made  herself a dress she was wearing... we never even saw her with Cat while she was around performing her duties as Lady of Winterfell, and we did not  see Sansa either showing any skills prior to the last episode, so that the audience could imagine that all that education and training had happened off-screen.
This was not the case with his brothers, whom at least we saw not only practicing in the courtyard, but also accompanying Ned to impart justice, and of whom we did have evidence of the rest of their education, for example when Bran performed very well as the Stark in Winterfell, and  Robb performed very well as a military strategist.

So yes, it is absolutely bad writing. They make Sansa do stupid things all the time, and then they expect we forget all that.  Inconsistency is these writers trademark.

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2 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

And SO definitely NOT what a lady would do! She is Catelyn Tully's daughter. Can anyone picture Cat contradicting Ned in public, or arguing with Rob in public when he was king in the north?

I do remember Catelyn yelling at Robb "I told you never trust a Greyjoy" in front of Roose Bolton.

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