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u.s. politics: faygo to the polls

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1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Urm, Boston is racist as all hell. Good for them in regards to this counter-protest, but best city in the world? Not Sure If Serious.

It is? I thought it was really progressive.

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50 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I'm talking about the most simple and logical of philosophical axioms: that one can only expect to be treated as well as they treat others. Hence, any group or movement seeking to deny another group its humanity, or some of its basic rights, can expect to be seen as less human by others.
And this does, in fact, work perfectly for religious extremisms: it is precisely because of the way women are treated due to some traditions and religions that these traditions and religions are then criticized as primitive or barbarian.

Actually, I would tend to believe the very opposite: that the more acceptable some nauseating ideas become, the easier it is to persuade the most extreme believers to commit atrocities.

Assuming these are actually a problem (I'd have to do some research to form an opinion on them), they are still politically irrelevant and I'm fully confident that the over-legalized American society will sort this out (it has already started).

Or they be the only ones with the balls to stand up for what's right, who knows?

But again, I'm talking about politics, not violence. Violence is scary, but without political support it's not hard to either avoid or confront.

There are lots of things one can do to fight against a dangerous political movement, and even against a dangerous government.
And if all else fails, it's always useful to know when to pack your bags and leave your country. My grandparents on my father's side fled two authoritarian governments in their lifetime.

But what if they won't let you in?  Many come knocking as did the Jews fleeing Europe in the WWII, but many were turned away.  Just as now the US turns away so many legitimate asylum seekers and ships children back to countries where its join the gangs or be killed and your sister killed and etc. killed. Picking up and moving elsewhere legally is not as easy as one may think, unless one is so fortunate as to posses dual or triple citizenship -- as do so many these days.  (Personally, I have thought for a long time that dual citizenship should not be allowed, at least not in the US.)

I personally think we would all do better to understand that we're all just staying here and thus we'd better work at keeping these circle jerkers from taking over -- which is their avowed objective.  Bannon says he's really going to war for this now, doubling and tripling down, now that he's been removed from the orange's shoulder in the WH.

As for having friends or a spouse, or even a remotely romantic or even fuck buddy relationship with anyone who holds such beliefs -- I could never ever do it.  I can't even bear the company of my relatives any longer.  I can stay quiet about what I think around them, but it turns out they WON'T BE QUIET.  They want to fight, so they just keep goading.  Eff 'em.  I don't need to come to weddings, graduations or even funerals.  I have plenty of those to go to among my friends, who are many thank goodness, and who are kind, funny, compassionate, brilliant, talented, entertaining, knowledgable, diverse, live all over the world -- and o, yes, are successful.  Everything evidently the orange's supportive base are not?  Certainly none of my relatives are any of these things, except successful, in sense of having a Lot Of Stuff.  They sure don't behave like people who are having any fun at all unless to goad and make other people feel badly.  They think that is good fun.

 

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40 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

You don't necessarily need to be actively disagreeable.
...
I don't envy all of you Americans who have to decide where to draw it these days, and I hope to god I won't have to do that in five years.

Hm, not sure how I'd deal with a National Front supporter.  Not trying to complain, but there is a distinction in a two-party system in which half the country votes GOP.  Granted, Le Pen got a third of the vote, but that was after over a decade of trying to convince everybody they weren't racist and the choice was narrowed to two.  Anyway, point is it's generally easier to identify the 20-30% of true racists in a multiparty system.

I deal with my aforementioned uncles by having an unspoken agreement not to talk politics.  I don't want to hear their bullshit and I'm sure they feel the same about me.  This agreement has become a cardinal rule since the election.  I still have a great time with them when we meet up, and I certainly still love them.  As I said, YMMV.

34 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

and no, whats wrong with this country is fence sitting and being respectful toward scummy people. and yes, trump supporters are scum. the line has to be drawn somewhere, and I'd say supporting Trump is a good place to start. Voting for him says a lot about the people that did.

Nope, what's wrong with this country is the rush for each half to generalize and label everybody on the other side as scummy people based on voting behavior.

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18 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Urm, Boston is racist as all hell. Good for them in regards to this counter-protest, but best city in the world? Not Sure If Serious.

Right, there are lines here people.  One can't just forget support for the Sawx and the Pats.  This is unacceptable.

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7 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Hm, not sure how I'd deal with a National Front supporter.  Not trying to complain, but there is a distinction in a two-party system in which half the country votes GOP.  Granted, Le Pen got a third of the vote, but that was after over a decade of trying to convince everybody they weren't racist and the choice was narrowed to two.  Anyway, point is it's generally easier to identify the 20-30% of true racists in a multiparty system.

I deal with my aforementioned uncles by having an unspoken agreement not to talk politics.  I don't want to hear their bullshit and I'm sure they feel the same about me.  This agreement has become a cardinal rule since the election.  I still have a great time with them when we meet up, and I certainly still love them.  As I said, YMMV.

Nope, what's wrong with this country is the rush for each half to generalize and label everybody on the other side as scummy people based on voting behavior.

Voting behavior says a lot about someone. The other issue with this country is people acting like voting doesn't have an impact and like politics is a game. 

If you vote for someone supported by the kkk, nazis and other white supremacists, has been accused by 13 women of sexual assault, mocks a disabled reporter, generalizes entire demographics of color, has committed fraud, committed housing discrimination, raped a wife / now ex wife, has incited violence at his campaign rallies, you are not a good person and you are scum. 

Oh, and if they still support him after his nazi and white supremacist sympathizing bs this past week, they are bigger assholes than when they first voted for him and ignored all of the issues with him that showed he would be this horrible.
 

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14 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

It is? I thought it was really progressive.

I'm not going to proclaim myself to be an expert on the city, but it has a fairly storied and infamous racial history. Hell, I've heard tell that the Irish and the Italians still don't stomach each other well in certain neighborhoods.

 http://www.asanet.org/sites/default/files/savvy/footnotes/julyaugust08/race_rel.html

 

Just from a sports angle (since I know you from the NBA and NFL threads) I just reread Bill Russell's autobiography, and he often talked about his treatment there in his early playing days as being really negative. It wasn't until years after he retired that he began to feel love from and towards Boston Celtics fans. You just had an incident this season in the MLB where Orioles outfielder Adam Jones was pelted with peanuts and other objects and had racial slurs yelled at him at Fenway.

 http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/ct-mlb-image-racial-incidents-ryan-spt-0508-20170507-column.html

 

Granted, you are going to find these types of fans in every city, sadly.

 

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3 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

Voting behavior says a lot about someone. The other issue with this country is people acting like voting doesn't have an impact and like politics is a game. 

It does indeed.  Voting behavior is very complicated.  Understanding the motivations for why people support certain candidates is difficult to discern even for people that study it for a living.  This becomes even more difficult when there's only two viable choices.  But one thing's for sure, anyone that takes it seriously and has a considered opinion on voting behavior knows there's far more complicated motivations to supporting, say, the GOP, than simply supporting a candidate because he has certain deplorable positions, rhetoric, and other supporters.

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12 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Nope, what's wrong with this country is the rush for each half to generalize and label everybody on the other side as scummy people based on voting behavior.

Again, very well said. I'd say cheers, but it's too early for me to be drinking. ;)

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Massive protest in Boston, as you would expect in any gathering of that size, there are some troublemakers and isolated polices skirmishes. But Trump has already tweeted about the "many" anti police agitators in Boston. I expect that is the line Conservative media will take tomorrow, amplifying those incidents to say it is exactly the same as Charlottesville and Trump was right on Tuesday.

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2 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Again, very well said. I'd say cheers, but it's too early for me to be drinking. ;)

Not me! :cheers:

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4 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

It does indeed.  Voting behavior is very complicated.  Understanding the motivations for why people support certain candidates is difficult to discern even for people that study it for a living.  This becomes even more difficult when there's only two viable choices.  But one thing's for sure, anyone that takes it seriously and has a considered opinion on voting behavior knows there's far more complicated motivations to supporting, say, the GOP, than simply supporting a candidate because he has certain deplorable positions, rhetoric, and other supporters.

Oh you mean like being willfully ignorant, gold medal level mental gymnastics and being flat out selfish? 

A year people saw what he was like and heard what he was saying. No more excuses. 

Anyone that voted for him was an asshole. Anyone that continues to support him are scum of the earth. I already cut my family off that voted for him and or supports him. I have zero tolerance for shit justifications for voting for such an obviously vile individual.

1 minute ago, Morpheus said:

Massive protest in Boston, as you would expect in any gathering of that size, there are some troublemakers and isolated polices skirmishes. But Trump has already tweeted about the "many" anti police agitators in Boston. I expect that is the line Conservative media will take tomorrow, amplifying those incidents to say it is exactly the same as Charlottesville and Trump was right on Tuesday.

The melee came from a couple Nazis throwing a slur at someone which resulted in dozens of Antifa dogpiling them. 

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6 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

...

People on here might assume in some sort of right wing conservative , but I'm really not, I have almost no hard set political views. What I do have a problem with is vitriol and over reaction and hyperbole. That happens on both sides. The truth is nobody knows the truth on almost any subject, so the more passionate and miopic someone is on a topic the more silly they look and the more it makes people get defensive.

I have seen more people describe their own position this way. In my personal experience they spent most of their time arguing the validity of right wing talking points. Indistinguishable from the actual right, except for their claims.

On the other hand I know people comfortably on the traditional left who defend that, but at the same time are not quite on the same page as the current cutting edge of the equal rights movements. Clearly on the left, but arguing against parts of the modern left.

So me from experience I take 'on both sides' people by what they say and do, not what they claim.

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Just now, Sword of Doom said:

Oh you mean like being willfully ignorant, gold medal level mental gymnastics and being flat out selfish? 

A year people saw what he was like and heard what he was saying. No more excuses. 

Anyone that voted for him was an asshole. Anyone that continues to support him are scum of the earth. I already cut my family off that voted for him and or supports him. I have zero tolerance for shit justifications for voting for such an obviously vile individual.

Do I judge people that tell me their Trump supporters?  Yes.  Do I lose some respect for them?  Certainly.  Do I give them shit for what has transpired?  Abso-fucking-lutely.  But I also know, for a fact, that many Trump supporters are not "scum of the earth" by any objective standard.  And I know making broad, pejorative generalizations about groups of people is a large part of what I don't like about Trump, so I try not to do it myself.

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1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I'm not going to proclaim myself to be an expert on the city, but it has a fairly storied and infamous racial history. Hell, I've heard tell that the Irish and the Italians still don't stomach each other well in certain neighborhoods.

 http://www.asanet.org/sites/default/files/savvy/footnotes/julyaugust08/race_rel.html

 

Just from a sports angle (since I know you from the NBA and NFL threads) I just reread Bill Russell's autobiography, and he often talked about his treatment there in his early playing days as being really negative. It wasn't until years after he retired that he began to feel love from and towards Boston Celtics fans. You just had an incident this season in the MLB where Orioles outfielder Adam Jones was pelted with peanuts and other objects and had racial slurs yelled at him at Fenway.

 http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/ct-mlb-image-racial-incidents-ryan-spt-0508-20170507-column.html

 

Granted, you are going to find these types of fans in every city, sadly.

 

Yeah, im familiar with Russell's story, but that thing was over 50 years ago. Im talking about the Boston of today.

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Just now, Red Tiger said:

Yeah, im familiar with Russell's story, but that thing was over 50 years ago. Im talking about the Boston of today.

Outside of the MLB thing, I can't really speak to that. A comedian I enjoy quite a bit (Bill Burr) is from Boston and he calls it "Racist San Francisco".

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4 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

Yeah, im familiar with Russell's story, but that thing was over 50 years ago. Im talking about the Boston of today.

When I was growing up we would drive to Cape Cod every year for summer vacation, during which we'd visit Boston for a few days.  I've only been there a couple times in the past decade, but from my experience...let's just say it's earned its reputation.  As ME said, there's strands of this in every city but I found Boston to be rather...unique in this regard.  Especially for a northeastern city.  That being said, the city is great to visit in general once you can get past that and the traffic since the layout was designed by morons.

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1 hour ago, Red Tiger said:

It is? I thought it was really progressive.

While it is progressive, it is also really really racist. 

Trump referred to anti-racist counter demonstrators in Boston as "anti-police" . Did Trump just imply the police are racist? Pretty sure he did.

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10 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

While it is progressive, it is also really really racist. 

Trump referred to anti-racist counter demonstrators in Boston as "anti-police" . Did Trump just imply the police are racist? Pretty sure he did.

SOUTHIE LIVES MATTA, KID! Lulz

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