sweetsunray Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 22 minutes ago, RedShirt47 said: I agree that the whole capture a wight idea was silly. Sending the King in the North, the de-facto leader of the Wildlings, and others into such a dangerous area for a wight which is unlikely to help much if it even survives as far as the South is a totally absurd plan. But logistics are the least of the issues with this story. I just don't think complaining about how long Gendry took to get back is a particularly good argument. If the show was to limit itself on such logistics then we might not have seen Casterly Rock or other locations simply because the timing didn't suit. Complain about the story if you think it's a bad story, don't complain about nit-picky logistics (not saying you did personally, I'm making this point more generally). Of course the wight-napping-for-Cersei idea is the dumbest idea ever. Gendry's running and raven's speed is peanuts against that. But you already know this before epi 6 starts, so most viewers, including myself, tell themselves "well they're doing this stupid wight-hunt, just roll with it. After all, I enjoyed epi 4 (gave that an 8)." The intent and expectation to roll with an action packed episode is there. The logistics to achieve the deux-ex-machinas and ever changing rules on how to kill wights and/or WW ruined even that, especially because it's all in the same episode, leaving nor room for forgiving it. I actually think it's a great pity. The set was gorgeous and alot of work went into it. I will even say that D&D put a lot of more work and care in the dialogue both for WF and the 7M than they have done for most of this season, even though I regard it more draft-level dialogue than natural one. The dragon CGI as always is top notch. The actors and the stunt men gave it their all. They had travelogue, a build up of trouble encountered, an idea to create a barrier for the wights to get to the 7M, but it just ended up being an onion of layers of stupidty. And here's the thing... some people say "wash the logistics, but keep your cirticism to storytelling" and others will defend the storyline to the utmost and only accept criticism on logistics, and then some just want us to shut up and not watch at all and wave everything off and find any argument silly. Shrug. Some people are appalled with dialogue, others with flip-flop characterization, with silly and oh-so-see-through plot driven machinations, and yet others with glaring cheating logistics, and some with all of that. Everyone has their personal standards, and what is obvious to one viewer may not be to another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 12 minutes ago, Lord Okra said: I rewatched this last night with a friend who hadn't seen it and they mention this sequence in the show. Jorah brings the wights dying up to Jon and Jon says.......maybe that WW made those wights that died. This works....it was explained in the show. WW dies....the wights he had turned died with him.......one wasn't made by him so it survived for capture. It was covered by dialog in the show. Then, this plothole has been solved, I didn't remember that dialogue. However, it's still weird that one wight was not made by him (from the ww squad) and that our squad believed that it would be as easy to find and capture one without meeting the NK or hundred of wights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Being Daenerys Targaryen Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 16 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said: Good point, yes, I also found weird that just one of the wights stays alive. As for the patrolling thing. Unless they saw the ravens and then they expected some people to come, maybe that would be reasonable. What I don't find as reasonable is that the squad thinks they would find just some wights (and maybe just one WW-easily to destrioy) in the middle of nowhere... Yeah! I asked myself... The wights walk together... +50 000 Wights walking together... Tell me how are they going to catch one and wishing to go back to eastwatch before the white walkers catch them...? without horses? How were they expecting to go back to eastwatch if they couldn't make it? How? People said they left the horses maybe because it would be difficult to ride under that weather condition... But in the end Jon went back on the back of a horse... So? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ned Stark Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Not sure if it's been mentioned, as I didn't read all of the 480 posts of this thread, but I read an article yesterday that mentioned that the rock island that Jon and co. stayed on is the same one that the Night King was on when he scattered Bran's flock of ravens in episode 5. I went back and rewatched it, and it did look similar to me. That would go a good ways in explaining some of the inconsistencies. If the Night King is able to see events in the future, then he possibly laid a trap for Jon and co., and Dany and her dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Being Daenerys Targaryen Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 23 minutes ago, Lord Okra said: You can't starve to death in a week's time. As far as freezing to death, people has survived on Mt. Everest for two days before.....in the death zone. There is no reason to assume they'd freeze to death in 36 hours. Could they? Sure they could. Is it likely in sub artic clothing.....no. After....4 or 5 days.....sure. In 2 days, not likely. If they were out there waiting for 3-4 days then freezing to death/food isn't an issue really. Fine! Then what was the WW waiting for? I asked that question and they told me they were waiting for them to starve and freeze to death... So they were just going to sit there for a month waiting for 6 people to die? Really? One answer, brings another question... WWs could have killed them all ... 26 minutes ago, Lord Okra said: This is a fair complaint. Jon's "rescue" wasn't very plausible. I'm fine with legit complaints. I saw people saying that as he is made of fire and cold maybe he can resist... and blablabla 27 minutes ago, Lord Okra said: They wouldn't freeze to death in 24-48 hours wearing what they were wearing. 5+ days then I'd agree......there'd be a good chance of them freezing to death. mmmh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Being Daenerys Targaryen Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said: Not sure if it's been mentioned, as I didn't read all of the 480 posts of this thread, but I read an article yesterday that mentioned that the rock island that Jon and co. stayed on is the same one that the Night King was on when he scattered Bran's flock of ravens in episode 5. I went back and rewatched it, and it did look similar to me. That would go a good ways in explaining some of the inconsistencies. If the Night King is able to see events in the future, then he possibly laid a trap for Jon and co., and Dany and her dragons. I said that on this thread... Exactly what I said... But it sounds crazy... And people don't want to believe that story... That would explain why the NK was just there, waiting instead of killiing them... He was waiting for something else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Meera of Tarth said: Then, this plothole has been solved, I didn't remember that dialogue. However, it's still weird that one wight was not made by him (from the ww squad) and that our squad believed that it would be as easy to find and capture one without meeting the NK or hundred of wights. Yes, it's brought up in the episode. Of course I don't remember any wights dropping like that at Hardhome after Jon killed the WW he killed there. I guess we're now supposed to invent some reason on our own to explain why no wights dropped at Hardhome to honeypot the inconsistency of what happens when you kill a WW. And yes, there's no reason for Jon to believe he'll stumble on a small separated wight patrol, not after the Fist or Hardhome, unless he read the script. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Okra Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 18 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said: Then, this plothole has been solved, I didn't remember that dialogue. However, it's still weird that one wight was not made by him (from the ww squad) and that our squad believed that it would be as easy to find and capture one without meeting the NK or hundred of wights. As far as plot holes, can you actually have a plot hole if the show isn't finished yet? I wouldn't think so. We need to see the entire story to determine if they left plot holes but we can't actually determine if there are going to be unresolved plot holes until we actually have access to the entire plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Okra Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said: I said that on this thread... Exactly what I said... But it sounds crazy... And people don't want to believe that story... That would explain why the NK was just there, waiting instead of killiing them... He was waiting for something else... This goes to my "plot hole" thing....this all may be explained in a future episode which would make all these complaints about this or that unjustified. We need to see the entire plot (the whole story) before we can come back and say.....this doesn't work or that doesn't work or this is a plot hole or that is a plot hole. Until we get the entire story, we really can't claim there are plot holes or that something doesn't make sense.....because the plot hole may be filled in at a future time or it may make sense after a future episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Just now, sweetsunray said: Yes, it's brought up in the episode. Of course I don't remember any wights dropping like that at Hardhome after Jon killed the WW he killed there. I guess we're now supposed to invent some reason on our own to explain why no wights dropped at Hardhome to honeypot the inconsistency of what happens when you kill a WW. And yes, there's no reason for Jon to believe he'll stumble on a small separated wight patrol, not after the Fist or Hardhome, unless he read the script. then also.....do wights swim? Because some of them were scared during 24hours...but then someone must have done an underwater job with the chains tied to the dragon's head...right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Just now, Lord Okra said: As far as plot holes, can you actually have a plot hole if the show isn't finished yet? I wouldn't think so. We need to see the entire story to determine if they left plot holes but we can't actually determine if there are going to be unresolved plot holes until we actually have access to the entire plot. the squad of the men who are alive is full of plot holes from the start that won't be resolved. How did they know it would be so easy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said: Not sure if it's been mentioned, as I didn't read all of the 480 posts of this thread, but I read an article yesterday that mentioned that the rock island that Jon and co. stayed on is the same one that the Night King was on when he scattered Bran's flock of ravens in episode 5. I went back and rewatched it, and it did look similar to me. That would go a good ways in explaining some of the inconsistencies. If the Night King is able to see events in the future, then he possibly laid a trap for Jon and co., and Dany and her dragons. It is the same film set (a quarry) yes, but I think D&D do not intend it to be the same location, after all the wights and the WW are on the move. And that was a lot of weight of dead army on what's supposed to be an ice lake that conveniently has weak patches of ice. They used the same set, altered the angles on it and had an army move through it as if it's a different area. I'll betcha that if you look closely at the area where the 7M are chatting while walking you will see the same setting again, but from a different angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Okra Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said: Fine! Then what was the WW waiting for? I asked that question and they told me they were waiting for them to starve and freeze to death... So they were just going to sit there for a month waiting for 6 people to die? Really? One answer, brings another question... WWs could have killed them all ... We simply don't know why the WW were waiting there. It appears they were waiting there for the ice to freeze back over. I say this because once they discovered that the lake had refrozen to a point that the wights could attack across it in mass.....they attacked. So the obvious answer is they were waiting on the water to freeze over to a point it could hold a mass of wights. But, maybe we come to find out they were waiting on the dragons in a future episode....also possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Okra Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said: the squad of the men who are alive is full of plot holes from the start that won't be resolved. How did they know it would be so easy? Errr. They called it stupid time and again. Easy? Was it easy? I thought they had to be saved by a dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ned Stark Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, Being Daenerys Targaryen said: I said that on this thread... Exactly what I said... But it sounds crazy... And people don't want to believe that story... That would explain why the NK was just there, waiting instead of killiing them... He was waiting for something else... Okay. Yeah, it explains away a lot for me personally. If that is what D&D were going for, it could explain the javelins, chains, and timeframe. Also, in a ep. from an earlier season the Night King touches the ground and it looks like the ground is cracking and breaking up. In the earlier shot when the NK scatters the ravens, his entire army is on the lake around him yet the ice holds. It's possible, as you said, that maybe he wanted them stranded there for days. It would lend some evidence into the NK being a greenseer/skinchanger (maybe the strongest that has ever lived) and hence why the CotF could not control him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 16 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said: then also.....do wights swim? Because some of them were scared during 24hours...but then someone must have done an underwater job with the chains tied to the dragon's head...right? The weak ice scene with the wights dropping into the broken ice makes it look as if they drop straight to the bottom. But then Tormund is dragged by his feet towards a fishing hole by wights who pop up and bob up out of nowhere. Their swimming abilities are relative to the need of the scene's intent. We have to keep 1000s of wights from swarming the M7 so, we put them on an ice lake that's thin and wights can't cross. We can't have Dany swooping in to save them without them even having to fight the wights, so the ice lake freezes over again, but "naturally" not because the NK uses his icing trick. We can't have a fight with wights without giving a long scene of someone nearly dying, and they having swimming wights. Dragons melt the ice lake with their fire, but next shot it's solid again with wights coming to delay Jon's departure and missing his dragonride, and no dragon blasts the NK,not even accidentally (well that's very contained dragonfire). NK must get a dragon but must have a javelin for that, which he conveniently didn't use to kill the M7 stuck on the island, but never stopped the wights from trying to kill them once the lake had frozen over again. And there's absolutely no reason for the NK not going for Drogon first. The "but Viserion was breathing flames" argument is invalid, because we see Drogon breathing fire as well, while everyone's getting on it. If you're the NK would you go for the dragon everybody else is trying to escape with first or the one that's just flying around? You've got the biggest dragon + Kit + Dany and possibly every other hero who's gonna ruin his attempt at conquering humanity Westeros. There's no reconciling it, not even with "greenseer". Yes, they would have needed to break the ice, drop the chains and someone had to put the chains around poor Viserion, and do a thorough job of it, to be able to pull it out. Could have been wights trapped at the bottom forever until their WW is killed or scuba WW. The whole image was wrong: big ass iron chains + ice breaking apart as if there hadn't been a big ass hole in the ice to begin with to get those chains in and around Viserion. To me that's like doing a scene in space and have environmental sound (duh, just no!) in what is vacuum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ned Stark Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 9 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: It is the same film set (a quarry) yes, but I think D&D do not intend it to be the same location, after all the wights and the WW are on the move. And that was a lot of weight of dead army on what's supposed to be an ice lake that conveniently has weak patches of ice. They used the same set, altered the angles on it and had an army move through it as if it's a different area. I'll betcha that if you look closely at the area where the 7M are chatting while walking you will see the same setting again, but from a different angle. Ah, that's makes sense from a production/budget standpoint I guess. The thing about the ice, is that it would not be (much) stronger a few days after breaking then it was before breaking. So it is either 1 of 2 things, in my mind at least. 1 - Incredible bad writing. 2 - D@D meant to convey that the NK had scouted that area, sent off a WW with a detachment of wights, that fortunately only one wight was not "connected" to that particular Other so that Jon could get his lone wight. The NK then broke the ice himself and stopped his zombie, to give the heroes a false sense of hope while he waited for viserion. As an aside, I know the show isn't as great as the books, but I try to enjoy them for what they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashes Of Westeros Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said: D@D meant to convey that the NK had scouted that area, sent off a WW with a detachment of wights, that fortunately only one wight was not "connected" to that particular Other so that Jon could get his lone wight. The NK then broke the ice himself and stopped his zombie, to give the heroes a false sense of hope while he waited for viserion. At least someone in the show did the scouting thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 On 8/20/2017 at 10:30 PM, Cron said: You think you've seen teleporting? You think you've seen jetpacking? Don't make me laugh. 706 just upped the ante to a whole new level, never even imagined before, I think. While Jon & Company are confronting the Army of the Dead, Gendry is sent to run back to Eastwatch, where a raven is sent to Dany on Dragonstone, then Dany hops on a dragon, and flies all the way back and makes it in time to save the expedition to capture a wight??? Face it, friends. Reasonable continuity in terms of travel through time and space is out the window. Completely out the window. Just wait until episode 7. I have this bad feeling that show will set the record for lack of continuity ever on TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerJeremiahLouistark Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 38 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said: then also.....do wights swim? Because some of them were scared during 24hours...but then someone must have done an underwater job with the chains tied to the dragon's head...right? It almost leads you to believe they have semi free thought. To just stop when the ice starts to break. But at the same time they fling themselves over a cliff like Lemmings. Inconsistent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.