The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

[Jaak]

On 6/20/2018 at 7:28 PM, Lord Varys said:

The problem with the Romanov comparison is that blood claims weren't really an issue there, as the rise of Catherine the Great (and Peter the Great anointing his own wife, a former courtesan, as his successor - who then also actually succeeded him).

That was an autocracy, where the word of the Tsar was everything, and there were no proper laws of succession until Catherine's son finally got around to establish male primogeniture.

Blood claims were still an issue, and Tsar´s word was not everything. Peter I said it was, but then did not actually say what it was. Neither Anna Ivanovna nor Jelizaveta Petrovna got their choices to stick, however.

[AlaskanSandman]

Im sure it's been talked about on here before but i dont wanna read that many pages hahah.

What are the general thoughts on Aerea and Maegor?

I find this an interesting point in the story, as Maegor hates Aerea's father and grandfather. Yet still names Aerea his heir. Above Jaehaerys, Viserys, or Alysanne. 

Did he think she was young enough and under his control that he could turn her to his side? 

This seems rather progressive of Maegor given Jaehaerys doesn't honor Maegor's choosing, and names Baelon over Rhaenys, showing little regard for female succession. Names Aemon over Daenerys also when Aegon passes. So actually does it twice (though Alysanne only gets mad at Rhaenys being passed over. Maybe Aegon out lived Daenerys? Idk) In this at least, Maegor shows to be a better person than Jaehaerys.

And yet, upon Jaehaerys taking the throne, Rhaena and her daugher Aerea disappear from history. 

I can understand why Jaehaerys is made King over Aerea, kind of. As Jaehaerys is old enough to fight the faith at 14 rather than a 6 year old girl. But, Jaehaerys names male over female twice it would seem.

Is Maegor just more progessive? I mean, Viserys was like 15 years old when Maegor tortured him to death. Would Viserys not have made a better heir than Aerea? Who's father was murdered by Maegor. At least Aenys died on his own. 

 

[The Grey Wolf]

@AlaskanSandman

I doubt it was because Maegor was progressive. 

More likely he chose her because:

1. She was a child and therefore easier to control

2. She was female and would thus be more dependent on him in a patriarchal society such as Westeros

3. She was in his custody

4. To deny Jaehaerys I legitimacy

5. To give Alyssa the middle finger

6. Because he married Rhaena

7. Because he needed a temporary heir until he had a child of his own body

Also, Jaehaerys I didn't pass over Daenerys for Aemon.

[AlaskanSandman]

6 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Also, Jaehaerys I didn't pass over Daenerys for Aemon.

How so?

Edit-

Jaehaerys+ Alysanne=

1. Aegon = Heir, died young.

2. Daenerys= (Passed over when Aegon dies for Aemon?) Died young (Yet named changed from Aeryn, so maybe lived longer than we think? As that's an interesting change to make as ASOIAF has to be changed now when Doran says he can trace back to the first Daeynerys.

3. Aemon = Heir and father of Rhaenys, who is passed over. 

4. Baelon = Heir

5. Alyssa

 

[AlaskanSandman]

4 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@AlaskanSandman

I doubt it was because Maegor was progressive. 

More likely he chose her because:

1. She was a child and therefore easier to control

2. She was female and would thus be more dependent on him in a patriarchal society such as Westeros

3. She was in his custody

4. To deny Jaehaerys I legitimacy

5. To give Alyssa the middle finger

6. Because he married Rhaena

7. Because he needed a temporary heir until he had a child of his own body

Also, Jaehaerys I didn't pass over Daenerys for Aemon.

This i understand, but its still odd to me. Even in the case of Viserys I. Say he never had Aegon II. What was the other Lords plan in this scenario? Why even let a female be a stand in if you neverrrr plan on honoring it?

[The Grey Wolf]

@AlaskanSandman

1. Because the moment Aemon was born he was the heir, not Daenerys. The daughter of the crown prince and the oldest daughter of the king are two separate things.

2. Because having a plan in place is reassuring to one's supporters and provides stability in the event of one's death. Plus, in both Maegor and Viserys's case the decision had political dimensions. Maegor wanted to deny Jaehaerys legitimacy at a time when he was the last rebel figurehead people could rally behind. Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir to show his brother Daemon he wasn't putting up with his sh** when said sh** included making fun of his dead newborn son.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@AlaskanSandman

1. Because the moment Aemon was born he was the heir, not Daenerys. The daughter of the crown prince and the oldest daughter of the king are two separate things.

2. Because having a plan in place is reassuring to one's supporters and provides stability in the event of one's death. Plus, in both Maegor and Viserys's case the decision had political dimensions. Maegor wanted to deny Jaehaerys legitimacy at a time when he was the last rebel figurehead people could rally behind. Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir to show his brother Daemon he wasn't putting up with his sh** when said sh** included making fun of his dead newborn son.

Ok this definitely seems maester biased hahaha I dont believe the angle told on Daemon in The Rogue Prince and his actions clearly contradict the claims about him. (Like comparing him to Maegor). And by rights of established succession, Daemon should have been heir until Aegon II was born. Yet still, Daemon honored his brother. And even supported Rhaenyra's claim rather than pressing his own.

1. Makes no sense. 

Aemon is the third born child, while Daenerys is the second born child. Assuming Daenerys was alive when Aegon died, Daenerys should now be the heir, not Aemon. It's unknown when Daenerys died, so i dont understand the certainty. Unless Daenerys died before her older brother, she should be the next heir.

2. How is that a plan if you never plan on honoring it? Still havnt explained that. The rest sounds nice, but for the fact its not really a plan or stability if you never plan on honoring it.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

18 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir to show his brother Daemon he wasn't putting up with his sh** when said sh** included making fun of his dead newborn son.

Say Viserys I never had Aegon II and wed Alicent. Would the Lords have all honored Rhaenyra as Queen? Would the Faith? Would the Lords if the Faith wasn't? Sounds like a serious mess, not stability.

[The Grey Wolf]

@AlaskanSandman

Only Dorne follows gender-blind primogeniture. Elsewhere, all daughters come after a trueborn son. Its that simple. The Dance happened because Rhaenyra and Aegon II were half-siblings among several other factors.

If Viserys I never had any living children apart from Rhaenyra of course she would inherit...Unless Daemon tried to take it from her. Andal succession does not deny female inheritance. It merely places it second to that of any existing mainline male. And Jaehaerys I declawed the Faith when he made peace with it so even if the High Septon didn't like Rhaenyra for whatever reason there wouldn't be much he could do about it.

We are not given any reason to doubt what Daemon said when Prince Baelon joined his mother in death. That is you willfully ignoring the text because it doesnt suit your interests.

As for plans, those are, I repeat, contingencies of last resort. They are meant to be honored if all else fails. For instance if Maegor somehow kept his throne but had no children then upon his death Aerea would succeed him unless Jaehaerys I forced the issue by starting a civil war.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@AlaskanSandman

Only Dorne follows gender-blind primogeniture. Elsewhere, all daughters come after a son. Its that simple. The Dance happened because Rhaenyra and Aegon II were half-siblings among other things.

We are not given any reason to doubt what Daemon said when Prince Baelon joined his mother in death. That is you willfully ignoring the text because it doesnt suit your interests.

As for plans, those are, I repeat, contingencies of last resort. They are meant to be honored if all else fails. For instance if Maegor somehow kept his throne but had no children then upon his death Aerea would succeed him unless Jaehaerys I forced the issue by starting a civil war.

Aegon had no son to come before Daenerys, so Daenerys was passed over for her younger brother Aemon after Aegon's death. So more than the half sibling situation of Rhaenyra and Aegon II. They are full blooded siblings. 

http://www.westeros.org/News/Entry/Fire_and_Blood_Preview_Targaryen_Family_Tree

Well of course we're not, cause we are told it by a Maester. The same Maester painting Daemon to be a bad guy through out all of a Rogue Prince. Why would he counter him self? Im sure if Daemon had something to say about it, he would likely contradict this claim. 

So last resort, we go to war? Doesnt' sound like much of a plan. 

The only reason Jaehaerys wasn't met with Civil war was cause Aerea was too young to counter Jaehaerys' new claim, which ignores Aerea already being heir. Rhaena also didn't press the issue against Jaehaerys, and disappeared from history as of yet along with her daughter. 

[The Grey Wolf]

@AlaskanDireWolf

Daenerys was only the heir IF Jaehaerys I had no living sons. Once Aegon died she was the heir...So long as Jaehaerys I didnt have another son apart from the now-dead Aegon. Once Aemon was born she was therefore again demoted. Daenerys does NOT come before Aemon. The Iron Throne is NOT Dorne.

Again, we are given NO reason to doubt what we're told of Daemon in TRP. If you don't like the fact that the text depicts Daemon as an a**hole that's your problem, not the text's.

For God's sake read my posts. People have wills so that their desires are met when they die. Moreover, people prefer stability and certainty. A (temporary) succession plan is better therefore than none. And as I very clearly stated there would only have been a civil war if Jaehaerys I didn't back down in an AU where Maegor lived longer.

As for Aerea being passed over:

She was a young female child and the declared heir of a hated tyrant. Of course no one would prefer her to Jaehaerys I. Furthermore, we don't know that she and Rhaena disappear at the end of TSOTD. TWOIAF speeds through Jaehaerys I's reign and GRRM never released a sample on it the way he did for Aenys, Maegor, etc.

[Jaak]

On 8/27/2018 at 3:28 AM, The Grey Wolf said:

@AlaskanSandman

 

7. Because he needed a temporary heir until he had a child of his own body

The wording of the decree is "until gods grant us a son".

Meaning that by the declaration of Maegor, Aerea should still have inherited if Maegor had finally succeeded in having a live and healthy child... a daughter.

[The Grey Wolf]

7 hours ago, Jaak said:

The wording of the decree is "until gods grant us a son".

Meaning that by the declaration of Maegor, Aerea should still have inherited if Maegor had finally succeeded in having a live and healthy child... a daughter.

I personally always took that to mean Maegor didnt think he'd ever have only a daughter.

[Lord Varys]

33 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I personally always took that to mean Maegor didnt think he'd ever have only a daughter.

Rather, that he was damned sure he would never have a daughter, period. The great Maegor Targaryen would only have strong sons, not weak daughters.

Thinking about that, while it is fun that Maegor has no children at all, it would have been great if Maegor had had some driveling lackwit for a son, a child he was so ashamed of that he killed it with his own hands.

[The Grey Wolf]

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Rather, that he was damned sure he would never have a daughter, period. The great Maegor Targaryen would only have strong sons, not weak daughters.

Thinking about that, while it is fun that Maegor has no children at all, it would have been great if Maegor had had some driveling lackwit for a son, a child he was so ashamed of that he killed it with his own hands.

It would have been interesting if GRRM had kept Alysanne as Maegor's daughter instead of changing her to Jaehaerys I's sister.

Also, I'm sure Maegor would have wanted a daughter so that he could marry her to his son per family tradition.

[Lost Melnibonean]

58 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

It would have been interesting if GRRM had kept Alysanne as Maegor's daughter instead of changing her to Jaehaerys I's sister.

Oh, so that's why Daenerys said she was of the blood of Maegor the Cruel. 

[The Grey Wolf]

3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Oh, so that's why Daenerys said she was of the blood of Maegor the Cruel. 

Yeah. GRRM changed the family tree more than once, hence why the earliest edition of AGOT listed Viserys II as Aegon III's fourth son and Rhaenyra's first husband was a Lannister (later changed to a Strong). Oh, and the Regency of Aegon III was originally a quiet affair under the wise leadership of a Velaryon rather than the chaotic mess it actually is in OTL.

[Jaak]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rather, that he was damned sure he would never have a daughter, period. The great Maegor Targaryen would only have strong sons, not weak daughters.

Thinking about that, while it is fun that Maegor has no children at all, it would have been great if Maegor had had some driveling lackwit for a son, a child he was so ashamed of that he killed it with his own hands.

As it was, none of his three children lived to breathe.

Being a "lackwit" would take several years to appear, and Maegor lived only about three years after the birth of his first child. What would Maegor have done if he had had a living but seriously physically handicapped baby (who would grow up to be of normal intelligence)?

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf said:

It would have been interesting if GRRM had kept Alysanne as Maegor's daughter instead of changing her to Jaehaerys I's sister.

Do you have a source for this?

59 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Oh, so that's why Daenerys said she was of the blood of Maegor the Cruel. 

That seems unlikely and and unnecessary explanation. Ned refers to Jon as his blood, Cersei refers to Tyrion and Lancel as her blood, Asha refers to her father's brother as her blood.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Also, I'm sure Maegor would have wanted a daughter so that he could marry her to his son per family tradition.

He would have Alysanne and Aerea for that. Maegor doesn't give any indication that he was so interested in the incest thing as Aenys was. After all, he had five non-Valyrian wives.

23 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Do you have a source for this?

That seems unlikely and and unnecessary explanation. Ned refers to Jon as his blood, Cersei refers to Tyrion and Lancel as her blood, Asha refers to her father's brother as her blood.

According to @Ran it is from a previous version of the family tree.

I prefer the thing as it is now, although Maegor having children of his own could have been interesting, too (as spouses for Rhaena's daughters or Jaehaerys' children).

The Targaryen family tree is far too simple for my taste. There could have been so many branches if the Conqueror and Aenys had had more surviving children (Aegon could easily have had more sons to postpone the incest thing to third generation).