The Order of the Greenhand: N+A=J

[King Maegor]

2 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Godric Borrell also told Davos that Tywin was dead and then launched into a crazy story about how Tyrion twisted out of his cell through the bars, tore Tywin apart with his own hands, was red from head to heel. So Lord Borrell gave us two stories, if the first one was twisted out of shape, what makes anyone think the second one is accurate? 

Because one was a stupid rumor he heard from sailors and the other one is a story he heard directly from his father

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

I don't know why anyone is continuing on with this guy, he's literally pulling things out of thin air to support his interpretations and theory. Every time his  points are countered, he replies with things that aren't in the books, but only show up in The Order Of The Green Hands videos, with inaccurate dates and all, continues to dismiss GRRM's own damn words into Jon Snows birth, etc. But now, it's basically .."Because Order Of The Greenhand said so". And therefore GRRM, is confused about the DOB's he created and the timing of important events, which he himself writes ie. The World Of Ice And Fire book. Everyone else is dumb because The Order Of The Greenhand comes up with weak theories, based on faulty reasoning as to why these things happened. Yes, everyone is dumb and doesn't read or pay close attention to detail, because we simply do not buy their theories and the "evidence"(If you want to call it that) they put forward to support their own view of things.

 

 

On another note, I just can't wrap my head around the thought of anyone retcon'ing Mance's own backstory in the novels, and claim he's Arthur Dayne, because they both allude to not kneeling. And don't tell me there was more reasoning than that, I watched this segment specifically about a month back, because prior to seeing any of their videos, I actually was interested in seeing what they put forward to support their theories. I wasn't impressed and a large portion of their Mance Rayder is Arthur Dayne videos centers around, both implying they don't kneel, Arthur Daynes relationship with Rhaegar, as if that has anything to do with Mance Rayder, Mance Rayder liking when he gets to sing and play his banjo looking thing, thus obviously making him Arthur Dayne, because Arthur Dayne was supposedly Rhaegars best friend, and Rhaegar loved to write tunes, sing and play his harp, therefore so does Arthur Dayne/Mance Rayder. And ASOIAF has numerous individuals with the same names, a large point The Order Of The Greenhand attempts to make to support their N+A=J theory, is the fact that Arthur Dayne's sister gives birth to Edric Dayne, and because Edric's nickname is Ned, which he's often referred to by his mother Allyria and the remaining Dayne family members. And because he's called Ned, he was named as such, to commemorate Ned & Ashara's one-nighter.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

10 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

I don't know why anyone is continuing on with this guy, he's literally pulling things out of thin air to support his interpretations and theory. Every time his  points are countered, he replies with things that aren't in the books, but only show up in The Order Of The Green Hands videos, with inaccurate dates and all, continues to dismiss GRRM's own damn words into Jon Snows birth, etc. But now, it's basically .."Because Order Of The Greenhand said so". And therefore GRRM, is confused about the DOB's he created and the timing of important events, which he himself writes ie. The World Of Ice And Fire book. Everyone else is dumb because The Order Of The Greenhand comes up with weak theories, based on faulty reasoning as to why these things happened. Yes, everyone is dumb and doesn't read or pay close attention to detail, because we simply do not buy their theories and the "evidence"(If you want to call it that) they put forward to support their own view of things

I don't think that is fair at all honestly. He isn't pulling things out of thin air - he is just interpreting them differently than we are. 

I've also read this entire thread & can't remember one time he said "because the order of the green hand said so" 

Maybe tootgh says or insinuates that everyone is dumb if they don't agree (I don't know if they do or don't) but King Maegor most certainly hasn't said that. 

Damn GRRM for taking so long to write these books! AND for making too many babies born around the same time! Lol

I think we all (at least on this forum) are tirelessly waiting for the next book & start reading & rereading & analyzing & over analyzing trying to find some hint or clue we missed to point us in one direction or another. Obviously King Maegor watched this particular theory & bought into it, you did not. It's ok to discuss those things. But when you get into guess work or how you interpret one thing or another there are ALWAYS going to be disagreements. It's what the forum is for. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

5 hours ago, King Maegor said:

And their point about Mance choosing the less attractive sister is compelling as well.

Yeah because why would Dalla's or Val's personality come into play when it came to Mance "choosing" a bride? It's not like Mance might have gotten to know Dalla and connected with her and fell in love with her instead of Val despite Dalla not being as beautiful and full breasted. I mean why did Ashara choose Ned Stark over Brandon Stark? Brandon Stark is described as being very handsome and Ned looks plain compared to him. Does this mean Ashara Dayne and Brandon Stark were related? I mean why else would Ashara choose the less attractive sibling like Mance did?

I'm also still waiting on the "clarifications" on my other questions you decided not to answer. 

30 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

And because he's called Ned, he was named as such, to commemorate Ned & Ashara's one-nighter.

If what the Greenhand said about what happen between Ned and Ashara was true then the Daynes would HATE Ned Stark with a passion.

[King Maegor]

9 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

I don't know why anyone is continuing on with this guy, he's literally pulling things out of thin air to support his interpretations and theory. Every time his  points are countered, he replies with things that aren't in the books, but only show up in The Order Of The Green Hands videos, with inaccurate dates and all, continues to dismiss GRRM's own damn words into Jon Snows birth, etc. But now, it's basically .."Because Order Of The Greenhand said so". And therefore GRRM, is confused about the DOB's he created and the timing of important events, which he himself writes ie. The World Of Ice And Fire book. Everyone else is dumb because The Order Of The Greenhand comes up with weak theories, based on faulty reasoning as to why these things happened. Yes, everyone is dumb and doesn't read or pay close attention to detail, because we simply do not buy their theories and the "evidence"(If you want to call it that) they put forward to support their own view of things.

I have pulled nothing out of thin air.  Not one time did I cite something that wasn't in the books or directly stated by George.  I don't blindly trust the Order of the Green Hand.  I look stuff up myself thank you very much.  You are claiming that the dates George provided must be wrong in order to maintain your belief that the Order of the Green Hand is wrong as if George is incapable of adding 8 to 276 and getting 284.  Or taking 298 and subtracting the difference in LF's age from it and getting 283. They used the dates he provided and did simple math.  Or maybe it isn't simple for you and I apologize if that 3rd-grade math is too complicated for you to wrap your head around.  Or the fact that Jon is a clone of Ned, has a direwolf from the same litter as Ned's other children, is a powerful warg, has wolf dreams, dreams about the Kings of the North calling to him from the crypts.  He has no dragon dreams (like Dany and Tyrion do), and lacks anything resembling a Targaryen feature or symbolism.  Ned also thinks to himself that he hadn't thought of Rhaegar in years. How could that be possible if he was looking at his son every day?  You are the one that is dismissing real evidence so you can cling to the notion that Jon will be a Targaryen in the books, and you are insulting two very nice people who put a lot of work into making very good theories that are all backed by text evidence and George quotes.  That is actually the reason I posted my first ever comment here earlier.  I saw the link in their comment section, clicked it and saw all of you trashing them and decided that since they've always been nice to me and answer pretty much every question I've ever asked them, I should do them the kindness of standing up for them when a bunch of people who couldn't do what they do if their lives depended on it trash their hard work

[King Maegor]

14 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think that is fair at all honestly. He isn't pulling things out of thin air - he is just interpreting them differently than we are. 

I've also read this entire thread & can't remember one time he said "because the order of the green hand said so" 

Maybe tootgh says or insinuates that everyone is dumb if they don't agree (I don't know if they do or don't) but King Maegor most certainly hasn't said that. 

Damn GRRM for taking so long to write these books! AND for making too many babies born around the same time! Lol

I think we all (at least on this forum) are tirelessly waiting for the next book & start reading & rereading & analyzing & over analyzing trying to find some hint or clue we missed to point us in one direction or another. Obviously King Maegor watched this particular theory & bought into it, you did not. It's ok to discuss those things. But when you get into guess work or how you interpret one thing or another there are ALWAYS going to be disagreements. It's what the forum is for. 

Thank you.  Well said

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think that is fair at all honestly. He isn't pulling things out of thin air - he is just interpreting them differently than we are. 

I've also read this entire thread & can't remember one time he said "because the order of the green hand said so" 

Maybe tootgh says or insinuates that everyone is dumb if they don't agree (I don't know if they do or don't) but King Maegor most certainly hasn't said that. 

Damn GRRM for taking so long to write these books! AND for making too many babies born around the same time! Lol

I think we all (at least on this forum) are tirelessly waiting for the next book & start reading & rereading & analyzing & over analyzing trying to find some hint or clue we missed to point us in one direction or another. Obviously King Maegor watched this particular theory & bought into it, you did not. It's ok to discuss those things. But when you get into guess work or how you interpret one thing or another there are ALWAYS going to be disagreements. It's what the forum is for. 

In terms of "everyone is stupid", thats towards the channel and those who run it. They give that impression in the comment section when disputing theories with YT'ers. And thats just what I mean, people have been saying since page one that what the channel provides as proof and evidence is  guess work, their personal interpretations, and assumptions, I've said it myself numerous times, respectfully. Yet he's even disputed the fact that Order of the green hand is no different from any of us, and merely interpreting things on their own, theorizing, and assuming for the most part. I didn't say that he did say what you've quoted, thats the impression he's been giving throughout this entire thread, to me at least. Personally I don' think its fair to flat out claim that whomever disagree's with the theories that channel provides, as being unfamiliar with the channel. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

16 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

Thank you.  Well said

You're welcome

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

27 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

I have pulled nothing out of thin air.  Not one time did I cite something that wasn't in the books or directly stated by George.  I don't blindly trust the Order of the Green Hand.  I look stuff up myself thank you very much.  You are claiming that the dates George provided must be wrong in order to maintain your belief that the Order of the Green Hand is wrong as if George is incapable of adding 8 to 276 and getting 284.  Or taking 298 and subtracting the difference in LF's age from it and getting 283. They used the dates he provided and did simple math.  Or maybe it isn't simple for you and I apologize if that 3rd-grade math is too complicated for you to wrap your head around.  Or the fact that Jon is a clone of Ned, has a direwolf from the same litter as Ned's other children, is a powerful warg, has wolf dreams, dreams about the Kings of the North calling to him from the crypts.  He has no dragon dreams (like Dany and Tyrion do), and lacks anything resembling a Targaryen feature or symbolism.  Ned also thinks to himself that he hadn't thought of Rhaegar in years. How could that be possible if he was looking at his son every day?  You are the one that is dismissing real evidence so you can cling to the notion that Jon will be a Targaryen in the books, and you are insulting two very nice people who put a lot of work into making very good theories that are all backed by text evidence and George quotes.  That is actually the reason I posted my first ever comment here earlier.  I saw the link in their comment section, clicked it and saw all of you trashing them and decided that since they've always been nice to me and answer pretty much every question I've ever asked them, I should do them the kindness of standing up for them when a bunch of people who couldn't do what they do if their lives depended on it trash their hard work

 

 

Lol, stop trying to play a victim, numerous posters in this very thread have said how those who run the channel, come off as childish, and condescending towards those who disagree with them, but you don't see the wrong in that? Can you quote these book passsages you're referring to? Cite the page of it, and which book you're getting this stuff from?  I didn't ever say GRRM was wrong about anything, the man said in an interview that Jon was born up to a month after the Sack Of Kings Landing, the earliest being 2 or 3 weeks post-sack. He said this himself, yet you're of the belief that he was born as the sack was happening. Thats kind of what approximately means. Can you provide a source for this? 

[King Maegor]

3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You're welcome

BTW. Sorry about my response to him.  He made me see red for a second there.  You have been a pleasure to debate with all day

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, King Maegor said:

I have pulled nothing out of thin air.  Not one time did I cite something that wasn't in the books or directly stated by George.  I don't blindly trust the Order of the Green Hand.  I look stuff up myself thank you very much.  You are claiming that the dates George provided must be wrong in order to maintain your belief that the Order of the Green Hand is wrong as if George is incapable of adding 8 to 276 and getting 284.  Or taking 298 and subtracting the difference in LF's age from it and getting 283. They used the dates he provided and did simple math.  Or maybe it isn't simple for you and I apologize if that 3rd-grade math is too complicated for you to wrap your head around.  Or the fact that Jon is a clone of Ned, has a direwolf from the same litter as Ned's other children, is a powerful warg, has wolf dreams, dreams about the Kings of the North calling to him from the crypts.  He has no dragon dreams (like Dany and Tyrion do), and lacks anything resembling a Targaryen feature or symbolism.  Ned also thinks to himself that he hadn't thought of Rhaegar in years. How could that be possible if he was looking at his son every day?  You are the one that is dismissing real evidence so you can cling to the notion that Jon will be a Targaryen in the books, and you are insulting two very nice people who put a lot of work into making very good theories that are all backed by text evidence and George quotes.  That is actually the reason I posted my first ever comment here earlier.  I saw the link in their comment section, clicked it and saw all of you trashing them and decided that since they've always been nice to me and answer pretty much every question I've ever asked them, I should do them the kindness of standing up for them when a bunch of people who couldn't do what they do if their lives depended on it trash their hard work

Except that Peter was 14 at the turn of 282, and the deul/wedding happened around March at the latest of 282. So in early 298 when Catelynn is in K.L., Peter is indeed just shy of turning 30. So the text lines up just fine with out ignoring Gulltown Battle of 282, Summerhall, Ashford, all happening in 282 after the war had already begun.

So, try not being so rude about basic 3rd grade math.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Except that Peter was 14 at the turn of 283, and the deul/wedding happened around March at the latest of 283. So in early 298 when Catelynn is in K.L., Peter is indeed just shy of turning 30. So the text lines up just fine with out ignoring Gulltown Battle of 282, Summerhall, Ashford, and Battle of the Bells all happening in 282 after the war had already begun.

So, try not being so rude about basic 3rd grade math.

 

I was going to mention this but held off on it, lol.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

 

I was going to mention this but held off on it, lol.

I couldn't resist. Its what their video hinges off of, and its a total bad twisting of the facts haha im for different ideas, long as your not obviously stretching the known facts. I see this with the Siege of Storm's End and recently with Aegon the Conquerors age. Yet when you actually look at the dates and what Martin is saying, there is no problem.

[AlaskanSandman]

I blame Core mathematics haha

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

19 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

BTW. Sorry about my response to him.  He made me see red for a second there.  You have been a pleasure to debate with all day

That's ok! It gets the best of us. I enjoyed debating with you as well! 

[King Maegor]

16 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Except that Peter was 14 at the turn of 283, and the deul/wedding happened around March at the latest of 283. So in early 298 when Catelynn is in K.L., Peter is indeed just shy of turning 30. So the text lines up just fine with out ignoring Gulltown Battle of 282, Summerhall, Ashford, all happening in 282 after the war had already begun.

So, try not being so rude about basic 3rd grade math.

3

I'm sorry.  Was that intended to disprove what I said because you proved my point for me?  the duel had to have taken place after LF's birthday in the year 283 and his encounter with Catelyn had to have happened prior to his birthday in the year 298.  Nowhere that I've ever seen except the user updated wiki timeline does it say Gulltown, Summerhall and Ashford happened in 282.  I know for a fact that relatively late in the year 300 Jon Connington says the Battle of the Bells was 17 years ago. 300-17=283 every time.  Jaime was born in 266 and was 15 at Harrenhal and 17 when KL was sacked.  that also fits into their timeline. That is actually one of the things that got my attention when they were still a really small channel.  I found them when they only had fewer than a hundred subs, and I'm a numbers person and their first ever video was their original timeline video and they laid this sequence out and I thought they were crazy until I tried to find a date or age or time reference that disproved them and couldn't find one.  I literally used a search of ice and fire and typed in every number I could think of that may be of use and couldn't find one that didn't fit.  At that point, I felt like I had no choice but to buy into their timeline

[cgrav]

As I've said a number of times, the big issue here is people failing to interpret these books as literature, and instead focusing on the literal text without consideration for the subtext. It's fiction. Subtext is the whole point. As readers, we are tasked with reading between the lines and figuring out how the plots and characters develop themes and symbolic language that connect to the literary canon. Good literature is not only internally consistent, but consistent with the literary tradition that it springs from.

GRRM is not writing in a vacuum. These books can be seated within the canon of Germanic epic literature/poetry. You can draw a straight light from Beowulf and Song of Roland to the Eddas and Njal's Saga to the Niebelunglied to Lord of the Rings to Song of Ice and Fire. Through all of these works over the course of 1200+ years there is a consistent thematic strain of the Hero's Journey with a shared symbolic vocabulary. You can go back to Song of Roland, composed in like the 11th century, and see a magical sword that glows so bright it blinds its enemies, and which was pulled out of a cleft in the stone.

That stuff's not a coincidence. These books are continuing this tradition, and as such they need to be analyzed within it (as well as from the modern reader's perspective). We very much expect characters to develop in a certain way and for certain themes to be attached to them. This is why it makes no sense to interpret literature on the basis of logistics and mere absence of contradiction. When we have a character like Jon Snow who is clearly on the Hero's Journey, it would be an utter failure on the author's part not to incorporate the appropriate themes whenever possible. 

These themes persist in literature and mythology because they are universal to the human experience. It's just so shallow to read these books as if they were only about fighting and fucking and magical monsters. Our task as readers is to look beyond all that and find the themes that connect the story to the greater literary tradition, which is itself a product of our subjective human experience.

[AlaskanSandman]

10 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

I'm sorry.  Was that intended to disprove what I said because you proved my point for me?  the duel had to have taken place after LF's birthday in the year 283 and his encounter with Catelyn had to have happened prior to his birthday in the year 298.  Nowhere that I've ever seen except the user updated wiki timeline does it say Gulltown, Summerhall and Ashford happened in 282.  I know for a fact that relatively late in the year 300 Jon Connington says the Battle of the Bells was 17 years ago. 300-17=283 every time.  Jaime was born in 266 and was 15 at Harrenhal and 17 when KL was sacked.  that also fits into their timeline. That is actually one of the things that got my attention when they were still a really small channel.  I found them when they only had fewer than a hundred subs, and I'm a numbers person and their first ever video was their original timeline video and they laid this sequence out and I thought they were crazy until I tried to find a date or age or time reference that disproved them and couldn't find one.  I literally used a search of ice and fire and typed in every number I could think of that may be of use and couldn't find one that didn't fit.  At that point, I felt like I had no choice but to buy into their timeline

Typo. Let me try again. Didn't mean 283.

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn IV

Ser Rodrik cleared his throat. "Lord Baelish once, ah …" His thought trailed off uncertainly in search of the polite word.

Catelyn was past delicacy. "He was my father's ward. We grew up together in Riverrun. I thought of him as a brother, but his feelings for me were … more than brotherly. When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen

 

 

Quote

 

scarce·ly

ˈskerslē/

adverb

only just; almost not.

 

So in 282, peter is 14.

298-282=16 years since the deul. 

So in 298, Peter turns 30.

Hope that clarifies.

[King Maegor]

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That's ok! It gets the best of us. I enjoyed debating with you as well! 

As someone who doesn't necessarily buy into conventional wisdom where ASOIAF is concerned, I almost never post comments anywhere online because people go crazy over this stuff.  Like I said earlier, I've had this account for like a year and this is the first time I ever posted something, and I only did it because I felt like Lord and Lady Green Hand (as they are affectionately referred to on their page) were being grossly misrepresented. My wife, who hasn't read the books and only watches the show with me out of pure love, was annoyed that I was doing this earlier, but when I told her I was sticking up for them, she told me to have at it.  I got her to watch their live q&a with me last month and she thinks they're the just the cutest couple.  They're sarcastic.  Like NY sarcastic, but they seem like such a nice couple that my wife, who has practically no idea what is going on in the world of ice and fire fandom, was mad that people were trashing them

[AlaskanSandman]

21 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

I'm sorry.  Was that intended to disprove what I said because you proved my point for me?  the duel had to have taken place after LF's birthday in the year 283 and his encounter with Catelyn had to have happened prior to his birthday in the year 298.  Nowhere that I've ever seen except the user updated wiki timeline does it say Gulltown, Summerhall and Ashford happened in 282.  I know for a fact that relatively late in the year 300 Jon Connington says the Battle of the Bells was 17 years ago. 300-17=283 every time.  Jaime was born in 266 and was 15 at Harrenhal and 17 when KL was sacked.  that also fits into their timeline. That is actually one of the things that got my attention when they were still a really small channel.  I found them when they only had fewer than a hundred subs, and I'm a numbers person and their first ever video was their original timeline video and they laid this sequence out and I thought they were crazy until I tried to find a date or age or time reference that disproved them and couldn't find one.  I literally used a search of ice and fire and typed in every number I could think of that may be of use and couldn't find one that didn't fit.  At that point, I felt like I had no choice but to buy into their timeline

Well yea, that would make sense given that the Battle of the Bells was the first known battle of.... 283.

And Jamie? 266+15= 281. The year of the Tourney of Harrenhal. 

281+2=283

15+2=17

So literally, everything adds up the way it's supposed to.