Why was Robert in Vale

[Bael's Bastard]

On 10/28/2017 at 9:59 AM, Tygett Lannister said:

That good chance is only Aerys II, Rhaegar, Aegon, Rhaenys, Viserys need to die without children for Lyanna or her children to sit on Iron Throne. That is not very likely ... uh wait unless you plan to rebel against the main branch of royal family and back Baratheon branch.

Nope. You either didn't read my posts or did not understand the point I was making, which is that the betrothal was "One of the best chances Rickard Stark had to see his own grandchildren or great-grandchildren on the Iron Throne... Children of Robert and Lyanna would have a good chance of landing a Targaryen spouse." It is amusing that people actually think it is plausible for Rickard to go to Steffon to plot against Aerys or the Targaryens. That is about as plausible as seeking out Arthur Dayne to join an anti-Rhaegar plot.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 10/28/2017 at 11:53 AM, Widow's Watch said:

I think we have to consider the source when we think about Rickard's ambitions. Barbrey Dustin is still pretty pissed about how things went down with Brandon and she is laying the blame on Rickard and his maester. This is what she thinks she knows. 

I think that Rickard's dealings with the other lords had more to do with getting the north out of isolation than actual ambition. 

I don't think we need to take Barbrey's word for anything to see that Rickard had southron ambitions. Not to say what she thinks she knows is completely accurate. But those are two big time betrothals to the very houses Prince Duncan and Prince Jaehaerys (II) were betrothed to up until 239 and 240. They were the last non-Targaryen houses considered fit to provide brides to the Targaryen heir and his younger brother (who became king) up until Aerys settled for betrothing Rhaegar to Elia Martell in 279.

[Megorova]

On 26.10.2017 at 3:05 AM, John Suburbs said:

If you look back in history, matches between the great houses are few and far between.

Lord Tully, long before rebellion, wanted to marry Lysa to Jaime Lannister, Cat to Brandon Stark, and later tried to arrange engagement between Edmure and Martell Princess. If he succided, then Tully's family would've ruled over Riverlands, Westerlands, The North, and Dorne. He wanted to gain power for his family, which doesn't mean that he plotted something against King. Royalty prefer their children to marry with other royalty. Probably Aegon nearly had a coronary, when his oldest son and Crown Prince Duncan, married with a peasant girl.

On 25.10.2017 at 10:47 PM, Tygett Lannister said:

What do Starks gain by marrying Lyanna to Robert?

Eventually her son will become Lord of Stormlands. That's much better, than marrying her with someone with low status, like Littlefinger.

On 28.10.2017 at 4:59 PM, Tygett Lannister said:

That good chance is only Aerys II, Rhaegar, Aegon, Rhaenys, Viserys need to die without children for Lyanna or her children to sit on Iron Throne.

If Lyanna married with Robert, there was a possibility that their children would've eventually married with Targaryens. Thru this marriages Iron Throne gained more control and loyalty in The North and Stormlands.

If they had a daughter, they could have married her to Rhaegar's son Aegon Martell, and she would've became Queen of 7K. Or if they had a son, they could have married him to Daenerys. Then their daughter could have married with Aegon's son, Targaryen Queen who has 25% of Stark's blood.

On 28.10.2017 at 4:59 PM, Tygett Lannister said:

Children of Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark (who will be called Lyanna/lady Baratheon) will be Baratheons.

Didn't stopped Robert from claiming Iron Throne, based on the fact that he had 25% of Targaryen blood, thru his grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen, who married with Ormund and became Lady Baratheon.

[Tygett Lannister]

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Lord Tully, long before rebellion, wanted to marry Lysa to Jaime Lannister, Cat to Brandon Stark, and later tried to arrange engagement between Edmure and Martell Princess. If he succided, then Tully's family would've ruled over Riverlands, Westerlands, The North, and Dorne. He wanted to gain power for his family, which doesn't mean that he plotted something against King. Royalty prefer their children to marry with other royalty. Probably Aegon nearly had a coronary, when his oldest son and Crown Prince Duncan, married with a peasant girl.

Eventually her son will become Lord of Stormlands. That's much better, than marrying her with someone with low status, like Littlefinger.

If Lyanna married with Robert, there was a possibility that their children would've eventually married with Targaryens. Thru this marriages Iron Throne gained more control and loyalty in The North and Stormlands.

If they had a daughter, they could have married her to Rhaegar's son Aegon Martell, and she would've became Queen of 7K. Or if they had a son, they could have married him to Daenerys. Then their daughter could have married with Aegon's son, Targaryen Queen who has 25% of Stark's blood.

Didn't stopped Robert from claiming Iron Throne, based on the fact that he had 25% of Targaryen blood, thru his grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen, who married with Ormund and became Lady Baratheon.

No they would have ruled over Riverlands. Edmure and Arriane could never work as Martells marry their firstborn daughters matrilineally (which would make Martells rule over Riverlands). But they would have a lot of allies which they would need for a rebellion. There is no dishonor in Lord Paramount marrying his children to his vassal lords.

Yes her son will become Lord of Stormlands but he will be a Stormlander and named Baratheon which means North has no influence over him. Nobody is saying LF is a better option so I don't know why you brought that up.

Is it in interest of Stormlands nad North to be loyal to the crown, what benefit do they have?

If they had a daughter, they could marry it to Aegon but he would be probably married to his sister.

It is not Targaryen blood that gives him right to the throne it is his conquest and succession laws where he is heir once every Targareyen dies.

[Tygett Lannister]

12 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Nope. You either didn't read my posts or did not understand the point I was making, which is that the betrothal was "One of the best chances Rickard Stark had to see his own grandchildren or great-grandchildren on the Iron Throne... Children of Robert and Lyanna would have a good chance of landing a Targaryen spouse." It is amusing that people actually think it is plausible for Rickard to go to Steffon to plot against Aerys or the Targaryens. That is about as plausible as seeking out Arthur Dayne to join an anti-Rhaegar plot.

Oh yeah I did read but I answered later on and forgot about it. But like I said North gains nothing from that.

[Megorova]

6 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

If they had a daughter, they could marry it to Aegon but he would be probably married to his sister.

Rhaegar was devoted follower of Seven, and that religion prohibites incestual marriages. Even his father Aerys didn't wanted to marry with his sister Rhaella. So he also wouldn't have forced Rhaegar to marry his children to each other. If Rhaegar's children survived, he would've married them to outside houses. And Stormlands with Lyanna's children would be the closest place, to create marriage alliances, benefitual for both parties.

[Tygett Lannister]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Rhaegar was devoted follower of Seven, and that religion prohibites incestual marriages. Even his father Aerys didn't wanted to marry with his sister Rhaella. So he also wouldn't have forced Rhaegar to marry his children to each other. If Rhaegar's children survived, he would've married them to outside houses. And Stormlands with Lyanna's children would be the closest place, to create marriage alliances, benefitual for both parties.

He is not devoted follower of Seven, he believes in prophecy and takes another wife / rapes Lyanna / cheats on Elia, I don't know where you got that from.

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Megorova said:

Lord Tully, long before rebellion, wanted to marry Lysa to Jaime Lannister, Cat to Brandon Stark, and later tried to arrange engagement between Edmure and Martell Princess. If he succided, then Tully's family would've ruled over Riverlands, Westerlands, The North, and Dorne. He wanted to gain power for his family, which doesn't mean that he plotted something against King. Royalty prefer their children to marry with other royalty. Probably Aegon nearly had a coronary, when his oldest son and Crown Prince Duncan, married with a peasant girl.

Yes, Tully was suddenly making all these moves to marry his daughters to the sons of the other greater houses, rather than to his own bannermen as was usually the case in the past. It doesn't mean he was plotting against the king, but it could certainly be spun by Varys that this is what he was doing.

I don't know if marrying a daughter to anyone's son would give you control over another realm, unless of course you luck out like Cersei and marry an absentee father who lets you raise his son on your terms. In fact, this is the reason I suspect the great houses typically did not intermarry: it potentially introduces a means for a rival to infiltrate your family and your house, as opposed to keeping bloodlines contained to your loyal subordinates. Only in times of military or political need would it be necessary to join with a rival house, which means that Tully must have thought something was about to happen in the realm that required him to expand his power base. Mayhaps he just suspected that the Targaryen dynasty was nearing an end, and being vulnerable to invasion from literally all sides he needed more friends than enemies.

[Ygrain]

On 26. 10. 2017 at 0:00 AM, Widow's Watch said:

Robert remaining in the Vale is something that I wondered myself. I think it just shows how little interest or desire he had to rule his lands or anything really. I don't think he wanted be in Storm's End or stay there. 

Exactly my line of thinking. Too much duty, too little fun, and all that tedious "counting coppers". Best let other people take care of that. 

20 hours ago, Megorova said:

Rhaegar was devoted follower of Seven

Sorry but nothing of the kind is ever stated anywhere.

20 hours ago, Megorova said:

Even his father Aerys didn't wanted to marry with his sister Rhaella. 

That's true but not because of any religious reasons - they were not particularly fond of each other, and each had a love interest of his/her own.

[Bael's Bastard]

I think it's entirely possible and even likely that Aerys or Rhaegar would've made at least one Targ/Targ match between Viserys, Rhaenys, Aegon, and Daenerys had the war not occurred. I don't think we can say Aerys or Rhaegar were inherently against Targ/Targ matches.

I could actually see Aerys instigating another Dance between his own descendants had the war never occurred.

I suspect he didn't wed Viserys to Rhaenys because of his distrust of Rhaegar and the Dornish, and that if Aerys had lived to see the birth of Daenerys, he would have instantly betrothed her to Viserys, and favored that "pure" line over Rhaegar and his "Dornish" brood.

[Megorova]

21 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

He is not devoted follower of Seven, he believes in prophecy and takes another wife / rapes Lyanna / cheats on Elia, I don't know where you got that from.

From the GOT show that is several years ahead of the book plot. Could be that GRRM in the book will write some things different, but core things will be the same. 

Spoiler

Rhaegar and Lyanna were married by High Septon, in a ceremony of Seven. Prior that he annuled his marriage with Elia. He didn't kidnapped Lyanna. She willingly escaped together with him, because she loved him, and also didn't wanted to marry with Robert.

Also it's obvious from the books, that Lyanna and Rhaegar both fell in love during that tournament, when he crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty. She was Knight of the Laughing Tree, and Rhaegar knew it. King Aerys has sent him to find out who that mystery knight was, and he did. But instead of revealing to everyone that it was Lyanna, he helped her to cover it, he took her shield and hid it in a tree, where it was found next morning.

Also place and time of her kidnapping was too convinient. It was the same place where they met for the first time, one year ago. And also if he didn't kidnapped her there, then she would have went to her brother's wedding in Riverlands, after which she was supposed to go back to The North, and get married with Robert. So it can't be a coincidense, that Rhaegar chose that time to kidnap her. Which means that Lyanna herself informed him where, and when exactly he should 'kidnap' her.  

The origin of the Faith of Seven is from Essos, same as prophecy about The Prince that was promised, same as dragons and Valyrians. First time Rhaegar married with Elia also in ceremony according to Faith of Seven. When he married with Lyanna, they weren't married thru ceremony of Old Gods. And when Daenerys married with Khal Drogo, the ceremony was according to Dothrakis religion. Which means that wedding ceremony is held according to faith/religion of groom. Thus Rhaegar was follower of Seven.

[Ygrain]

10 minutes ago, Megorova said:

The origin of the Faith of Seven is from Essos, same as prophecy about The Prince that was promised, same as dragons and Valyrians. First time Rhaegar married with Elia also in ceremony according to Faith of Seven. When he married with Lyanna, they weren't married thru ceremony of Old Gods. And when Daenerys married with Khal Drogo, the ceremony was according to Dothrakis religion. Which means that wedding ceremony is held according to faith/religion of groom. Thus Rhaegar was follower of Seven.

Sorry but that is completely invaid reasoning - we see e.g. the marriage of Ned and Cat, in the sept of Riverrun, i.e. the bride's religion.

Furthermore, even if Rhaegar did marry Lyanna in the new gods' rite, it doesn't make him "devoted", nor anti-incest, because all the Targs married in the Faith and didn't care about incest being considered a sin.

As for the show:

Spoiler

it never established the Targaryen polygamy the way GRRM did in the books, so it couldn't take that route. I agree that R+L will be married in either version, but basing the details of one medium on the other is not a good idea.

 

[Tygett Lannister]

30 minutes ago, Megorova said:

From the GOT show that is several years ahead of the book plot. Could be that GRRM in the book will write some things different, but core things will be the same. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Rhaegar and Lyanna were married by High Septon, in a ceremony of Seven. Prior that he annuled his marriage with Elia. He didn't kidnapped Lyanna. She willingly escaped together with him, because she loved him, and also didn't wanted to marry with Robert.

Also it's obvious from the books, that Lyanna and Rhaegar both fell in love during that tournament, when he crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty. She was Knight of the Laughing Tree, and Rhaegar knew it. King Aerys has sent him to find out who that mystery knight was, and he did. But instead of revealing to everyone that it was Lyanna, he helped her to cover it, he took her shield and hid it in a tree, where it was found next morning.

Also place and time of her kidnapping was too convinient. It was the same place where they met for the first time, one year ago. And also if he didn't kidnapped her there, then she would have went to her brother's wedding in Riverlands, after which she was supposed to go back to The North, and get married with Robert. So it can't be a coincidense, that Rhaegar chose that time to kidnap her. Which means that Lyanna herself informed him where, and when exactly he should 'kidnap' her.  

The origin of the Faith of Seven is from Essos, same as prophecy about The Prince that was promised, same as dragons and Valyrians. First time Rhaegar married with Elia also in ceremony according to Faith of Seven. When he married with Lyanna, they weren't married thru ceremony of Old Gods. And when Daenerys married with Khal Drogo, the ceremony was according to Dothrakis religion. Which means that wedding ceremony is held according to faith/religion of groom. Thus Rhaegar was follower of Seven.

Fk off with disgusting retarded show if core of the book story is same as show I am burning him alive and books as well.

Faith of the Seven might come from Essos but it is typical westerosi characteristic while prophecy comes from Essos (R'hllor) which would be very foreign to some devoted 7 faced God worshiper. And what kind of religious man annuls marriage with his wife for no reason while they have 2 healthy kids.

[Ygrain]

Those show mentions should go in the spoiler tags.

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Sorry but that is completely invaid reasoning - we see e.g. the marriage of Ned and Cat, in the sept of Riverrun, i.e. the bride's religion.

No, the wedding ceremony was in Faith of Seven, because it was a double ceremony where Catelyn and Lysa were married to Ned Stark and Jon Arryn. And in The Vale major religion was Faith of Seven. So Ned married thru Seven's wedding ritual, because of Jon.

Don't know how to phrase it correctly... even in real world, in old times bride had to change her religion to groom's religion, and the wedding ceremony was conducted according to groom's religion... something like that.

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

No, the wedding ceremony was in Faith of Seven, because it was a double ceremony where Catelyn and Lysa were married to Ned Stark and Jon Arryn. And in The Vale major religion was Faith of Seven. So Ned married thru Seven's wedding ritual, because of Jon.

Indeed different circumstances, but it shows clearly that there is no rule about the groom's religion as the main one.

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

Don't know how to phrase it correctly... even in real world, in old times bride had to change her religion to groom's religion, and the wedding ceremony was conducted according to groom's religion... something like that.

Perhaps, but we don't see this in ASOIAF.

[Megorova]

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Indeed different circumstances, but it shows clearly that there is no rule about the groom's religion as the main one.

Perhaps, but we don't see this in ASOIAF.

What about Dany and her two weddings?

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

What about Dany and her two weddings?

What about them? I never claimed that there aren't circumstances when the rites are those of the groom's religion (though Dany in Essos is hardly an example of the Westeros practice), only that there is no rule about whose religion prevails. Therefore, the fact that the Targaryens generally follow the religion of the Seven does not mean that Rhaegar would havenecessarily had his second marriage officiated in the Faith.

[Bael's Bastard]

17 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

What about them? I never claimed that there aren't circumstances when the rites are those of the groom's religion (though Dany in Essos is hardly an example of the Westeros practice), only that there is no rule about whose religion prevails. Therefore, the fact that the Targaryens generally follow the religion of the Seven does not mean that Rhaegar would havenecessarily had his second marriage officiated in the Faith.

Maybe they dragged a septon to the Isle of Faces to cover both bases 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Alys and Sigorn got married by Mel. It doesn't make the marriage any less valid. People will do what they need to do to get what they want.