Jon is not in the line of succession

[Alexis-something-Rose]

4 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Why would he? Besides recognising Jon would be a threat to Aegon, especially if you turn out to be right and Rhaegar did annul his marriage to Elia thus making Aegon a bastard. 

Why would he? The question is why wouldn't he believe that there might be another child out there? Jon Conn may have been with Rhaegar when he and Lyanna met. You don't think he would have questioned why Rhaegar left 3 Kingsguard in Dorne instead of having them with him on the Trident? Jon Conn knew these people very well. He would know what happened between Rhaegar and Elia. He would know if Rhaegar married Lyanna. The math would not be difficult for him.

I would not be remotely surprised if he already suspects there may have been another child. 

I'm also pretty sure I never said that Rhaegar annulled his marriage since I don't believe it happened. And if Rhaegar wanted to end his marriage to Elia, then I think her top priority would be to protect her children's interest. 

[Bael's Bastard]

15 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think Jon Connington would believe it. And that's one person who might have been present during the "abduction", might have known where everyone was holed up, might have put two and two together if he knows that Kingsguard were left behind at the ToJ, which he seems to know about. But he never hears about a baby. You don't think Barristan Selmy wondered why his sworn brothers were left behind in Dorne? What about the Dornish? Three Kingsguard dead far away from where all the war was happening. Wouldn't Doran Martell wonder why Arthur Dayne died in Dorne instead of dying on the Trident? That might have raised some eyebrows. 

But that's just my line of thinking.

I agree that Connington is a very good candidate to have been among the half a dozen closest friends and companions that set out with Rhaegar when he ultimately made off with Lyanna, especially considering the World book really only names five or six people he was close with to whatever extents. So far, I don't recall us getting any of Connington's thoughts on Lyanna, and I suspect that might be because he is going to have some new pieces of information we haven't yet been given about Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Sigella]

12 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

"no lord paramount could hope to go against all the rest in practicality" - well, isn't that exactly what I said? Once the Great Council makes a decision, enough lords will support that, and any dissenters also fall in line because they'd have little chance of winning a war against the rest.

No you said that military strength was important for the claimant and I argued against it. Did I misunderstand you?

12 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I think the legitimacy of claims is more than just looking at birth order, though that is the first thing people will consider. The King's explicitly chosen heir can be just as important (just look at the support claimants like Rhaenerya and Daemon have mustered through just implicit choice), and Aerys wanted Viserys to succeed him. There isn't any cut and dry answer because Westeros doesn't seem to have concrete laws regarding this.

Right now, Dany still has the best claim because she's the only one who's Targ identity isn't in question. Of course, that could change if enough people start backing Aegon. Jon... I can't see why anyone would believe he's got a bit of dragon in him, or why they'd care.

No, right now Tommen/Stannis does. Targs will have to take it back first and the one who does that will make up a new line anyways.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

9 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

So far, I don't recall us getting any of Connington's thoughts on Lyanna, and I suspect that might be because he is going to have some new pieces of information we haven't yet been given about Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Connington has no thoughts on Lyanna. But I'm assuming the dam will break at some point with him. Howland Reed might know exactly what went down at the ToJ, but Jon Conn knows a shitload more. He would have been there from the very, very start. 

[Bael's Bastard]

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

There is definitely a way for Rhaegar to annul his marriage.

When Crown Prince Duncan married with Jenny, government wanted him to ditch her, and after that he could have legally married with someone else. Because they didn't just wanted him to ditch Jenny, just for the sake of it, they wanted him to marry with someone who is more fitting to become a future Queen of 7K.

There was a legal basis for separation of Duncan and Jenny, even though their marriage was already consummated. Rhaegar could have used something similar, for his separation with Elia.

Tyrion Lannister also was already married once. Nevertheless he married with Sansa. What happened with his first wife? Was their marriage annulled, or did they divorced? What legal basis did Tyrion used for their separation?

Actually I doubt that he ever did anything with legal status of his first marriage. I think he did nothing. And yet he married with Sansa. Which means that legally he has two wives.

There is pretty much zero chance that Rhaegar could get his marriage to Elia annulled. His marriage to the princess of Dorne had been arranged by the king, had been witnessed in the Great Sept of Baelor in King's Landing, and had been unquestionably consummated to the tune of two children including a male heir.

Jenny was a commoner whose marriage to Prince Duncan had caused nothing but problems. It had violated the betrothal arranged by the king, and incited a rebellion by House Baratheon. The King, the High Septon, the Grand Maester, and the Small Council had all opposed it before it produced children, even if it had certainly been consummated.

Tywin pretty much no sold Tyrion's marriage with no regard for legalities. If it ever does come up, it may be that Tyrion uses it, along with non-consummation, to prove that he couldn't have married Sansa. Then again, Tyrion's first wife is nowhere to be found, and we don't even know if she is alive or was alive when Tyrion married Sansa.

I think it is most plausible that if Rhaegar married Lyanna at all, it was while he was still married to Elia. Not because that would be less likely to piss off the king, or the Martells, or the Faith, but because it has precedent for Targaryens, no matter how rare it was. And it is much easier for a Targaryen prince to get married than for a Targaryen prince to get a marriage annulled or set aside.

Once it is done, there is no undoing it without the prince's cooperation.

[Bael's Bastard]

14 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Connington has no thoughts on Lyanna. But I'm assuming the dam will break at some point with him. Howland Reed might know exactly what went down at the ToJ, but Jon Conn knows a shitload more. He would have been there from the very, very start. 

I can see Connington having a lot of information about Rhaegar, as well as Lyanna, during the period between Harrenhal and the Battle of the Bells. His thought about Aegon's birth almost being the death of Elia and that the maester's had told Rhaegar she would have no more children, as well as Dany's vision of Rhaegar, Elia, and Aegon, would occur just after  Harrenhal, and just before Rhaegar set out with his half a dozen closest friends and companions, so I think that is just a taste of what may come from Connington's POV.

[Bael's Bastard]

13 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

Were Dany's dragon eggs explicitly Targaryen dragon eggs, or are we assuming that they are because the resulting hatchlings bonded with Daenerys Targaryen?

Did Iliryo specifically buy them from someone that got them from a Targaryen cache on Dragonstone? 

I've  not run a search but I don't recall anything in the text supporting that assumption.

However, Iliryo had access to the markets of the Free Cities and the economic and political muscle to find what he needed, even priceless antiquities like dragon eggs.

Before the Doom there were dragons all over the place in Essos, and even after the Conquest there were wild dragons in the world.

Personally I think Dany ended up with generic non-trademarked "dragon eggs", not the officially-licensed  brand name Targaryen Dragon Eggs(tm).

Did I miss something somewhere about dragon genetics being tied to dragon rider genetics?

The fact that the dragon lords preferred sibling incest indicates that each family of dragon lords had unique ties to their own dragons. This was not a Targaryen custom created after the Doom because of a sudden absence of dragon lords to marry, it was a common practice of the Valyrian dragon lords before the Doom. There is no point in them practicing sibling incest just to preserve the Valyrian looks, as that is something the dragon lords all shared. There is really no explanation for it other than that they believed, whether it is true or not, that sibling incest best preserved their connection to their dragons.

[Megorova]

14 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

As to why Rhaegar would seek an annullment in the first place, I'm not positive he did, only that he could have. There was obviously some reason Rhaegar thought he needed to couple with Lyanna whether or not Aegon is tPTwP. 

It's likely that Lyanna demanded from Rhaegar to marry with her. Because she was a maiden from a noble family, not some whore that he picked up in one of KL's brothels.

6 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Why would he? Besides recognising Jon would be a threat to Aegon, especially if you turn out to be right and Rhaegar did annul his marriage to Elia thus making Aegon a bastard. 

What if Jon Con will find evidences that Jon is Rhaegar's legitimate son, and by that time either Young Griff will die, or it be revealed that he is a fake. So in this case Jon Con will support Jon Snow, and will get IT for him.

Jon Con was infected with greyscale, when he was saving Tyrion. It is obvious that he will look for a cure against greyscale, and what better place to look for it than Citadel? And Sam is also there. Not hard to guess that eventually the two of them will meet. And one of them could find in Citadel evidences of Rhaegar's second marriage.

7 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

any possible witnesses to Rhaegar and Lyanna's "marriage" are dead. 

Though septon that married them could have went to Citadel, and when he died, documented evidences of that marriage, were left in Citadel's library.

7 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Kidnapping Lyanna or making her his mistress isn't sufficent proof that Jon is the product of this union, nor does it prove that he's legitimate. 

Howland Reed was there, he can testify that Jon is baby of Lyanna. And Wylla and Ashara Dayne could testify that the father is Rhaegar.

7 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Then why would Jon even want to reveal his true parentage? I can see him believing Bran and Howland Reed, but that doesn't mean he's going to go out of his way to convinve the rest of Westeros.

There's no need for him to tell it to anyone. It's possible that he himself will be far from being first to know about his origin. The way things are going, in political map of Westeros, it is possible that after Jon Con will go to Citadel, and will find there evidences that Rhaegar had one more child, he could go with this information either to Young Griff, or to Daeneryes. So Jon will hear about who his parents were, from his aunt, long time after she will arrive to Westeros. Half of politicians in Westeros will know about Jon's origin, long before Jon himself will hear about it.

7 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Actually we do, according to the official asoiaf wiki the Faith of the Seven only grant annulments if the marriage was never consumated which was why Tywin was so desperate to make Tyrion bed Sansa. 

Duncan consummated his marriage with Jenny, and Tyrion his with Tysha, nevertheless Tywin annulled Tyrion's marriage, and government officials of 7K wanted to annul Duncan's marriage.

7 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Jenny, just like Tysha, was a peasant girl with no connections and no family to defend and protect her. Elia's the exact opposite; she's a princess in her own right, her marriage was arranged and acknowledged by the king, and she gave birth to two children who were recognised as Targaryen Royalty. You can't compare apples and oranges, the fact is Rhaegar has no basis to annul his marriage nor would he have any reason to do so. 

What if Elia herself also wanted to annul their marriage?

For example Lyanna demanded that Rhaegar will marry with her. He and Elia for some reason thought that Lyanna is necessary for fulfilment of the prophecy. So Elia agreed to become officially separated, and for Rhaegar to marry with Lyanna.

7 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

I blame that awful show for this to even be a possibility.

You will sing a different song, when the same thing will be written by GRRM.

HE is the source of it.

[Dragonsbone]

Would it be possible to annull the marriage, if Elia would have agreed or initiated it? If both of them agreed? Is there any known case regarding that? I am just curious. I think she might be more important to the case of Rhaegar and Lyanna that we might think. She knew about the prophecy. What if she believed it too, like Rhaegar did? What if she also believed that there must be another head of the dragon?  We know not much about the marriage between Rhaegar and Elia. What if Elia had become a Selyse Stannis kind of person, ready to give up everything for the prophecy to be fullfilled. We allways assume, that Rhaegar betrayd her. But it may be, that she was OK with it, or even initiated it. She knew she can not bear any other child. If she also believed the prophecy, she may have agreed to it. 

 

[Pikachu101]

3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

The question is why wouldn't he believe that there might be another child out there?

Even if Connington suspected a child how does Jon prove he is this child? Honestly I don’t think Jon would make an effort to prove he’s the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, he’s not political nor does he want to be king. Attempting to use his newfound parentage to crown himself is ooc imo. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

What if Elia herself also wanted to annul their marriage?

No one wants to make their children disinherited bastards, it’s not in Elia or Rhaegar’s interest to bastardise Aegon. And like I said you can get a baby out of somebody without marrying them. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Though septon that married them could have went to Citadel, and when he died, documented evidences of that marriage, were left in Citadel's library.

Will you please stop referencing the show, we’ve been through this a numerous times on countless threads. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

You will sing a different song, when the same thing will be written by GRRM.

HE is the source of it.

George hates the show. 

[Pikachu101]

11 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said:

Would it be possible to annull the marriage, if Elia would have agreed or initiated it?

No mother willingly bastardises their kid, it is not in the interest of Elia or Rhaegar to illegitimise Aegon especially when he was expecting Lyanna to give him a girl. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Even if Connington suspected a child how does Jon prove he is this child? Honestly I don’t think Jon would make an effort to prove he’s the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, he’s not political nor does he want to be king. Attempting to use his newfound parentage to crown himself is ooc imo. 

No where am I saying that Jon would attempt to prove his parentage or try to crown himself. Jon has bigger problems to worry about.

All I'm saying is that there are people who would readily believe that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son based on what they already know. And Jon Connington was close enough to the situation to be able to figure the rest of the story on his own. 

[Dragonsbone]

28 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

No mother willingly bastardises their kid, it is not in the interest of Elia or Rhaegar to illegitimise Aegon especially when he was expecting Lyanna to give him a girl. 

I see you have read the whole post of mine . I already explained why I think it could have happend. 

Just out of curiosity: how do you know Rhaegar wanted from Lyanna a little girl? 

[Megorova]

Rhaegar could demand annulment on basis of Elia's infertility and weak health.

They do have one son, though Rhaegar could have argued, that one son is not enough to continue his line.

Aside from Rhaegar and Viserys, Aerys had three more sons and one daughter. Aegon lived for about a year from 272 to 273. Daeron lived for only six month. Jaehaerys lived for less than a year.

Queen Rhaella was pregnant 9 times, out of those babyes only two survived, lived longer than 1+ year (Rhaegar and Viserys).

Elia was pregnant only twice. Her son was born in 281 or 282, and Robert's rebellion began in 282. So at the time when Lyanna was kidnapped, Rhaegar's son could have been only a few months old.

Rhaegar could have demanded annulment on basis that Elia is infertile, and thus won't be able to give him more children. And concidering that Rhaegar's three siblings died in infancy, the fact that he has one son with Elia, who has weak health, there is a high possibility that her baby is also unhealthy, and may be too weak to live long. Thus continuation of Rhaegar's line is very fragile. If his single son will die, it will end. So to ensure continuity of Targaryen's dinasty, Rhaegar has to remarry. Thus his marriage with Elia should be annulled.

Martells withheld from him critical information about Elia's poor health. This could also be basis for either divorce or annulment.

[Pikachu101]

1 minute ago, Dragonsbone said:

I see you have read the whole post of mine . I already explained why it could have happend. 

Even if Elia did believe Rhaegar, all of his actions revolved around helping Aegon fulfil his prophecy something which included a Visenya not a Jon. Even in your scenario Elia wouldn’t agree to an annulment nor would Rhaegar have reason to do so or marry Lyanna. 

[Bael's Bastard]

12 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said:

Would it be possible to annull the marriage, if Elia would have agreed or initiated it? If both of them agreed? Is there any known case regarding that? I am just curious. I think she might be more important to the case of Rhaegar and Lyanna that we might think. She knew about the prophecy. What if she believed it too, like Rhaegar did? What if she also believed that there must be another head of the dragon?  We know not much about the marriage between Rhaegar and Elia. What if Elia had become a Selyse Stannis kind of person, ready to give up everything for the prophecy to be fullfilled. We allways assume, that Rhaegar betrayd her. But it may be, that she was OK with it, or even initiated it. She knew she can not bear any other child. If she also believed the prophecy, she may have agreed to it. 

 

I don't think Elia's agreement or willingness would matter when it comes to an annulment. Their marriage was consummated and produced two children. Unless it was asserted that the children were not Rhaegar's what would be the grounds? Perhaps they could have divorced, but that would probably also require a good excuse.

Pycelle claims that Robert would have set aside Cersei, and that Renly was plotting to bring Margaery to King's Landing to entice him. It is not clear if he is suggesting that Robert would have annulled the marriage based on her Cersei's incest, or if something more like divorce is being suggested.

Whatever knowledge Elia had of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and whatever her feelings on it, I don't think annulment is an option, and I don't know why people suddenly think that annulment is an option. Nothing in the story has laid groundwork for an annulment.

[Bael's Bastard]

8 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Rhaegar could demand annulment on basis of Elia's infertility and weak health.

They do have one son, though Rhaegar could have argued, that one son is not enough to continue his line.

Aside from Rhaegar and Viserys, Aerys had three more sons and one daughter. Aegon lived for about a year from 272 to 273. Daeron lived for only six month. Jaehaerys lived for less than a year.

Queen Rhaella was pregnant 9 times, out of those babyes only two survived, lived longer than 1+ year (Rhaegar and Viserys).

Elia was pregnant only twice. Her son was born in 281 or 282, and Robert's rebellion began in 282. So at the time when Lyanna was kidnapped, Rhaegar's son could have been only a few months old.

Rhaegar could have demanded annulment on basis that Elia is infertile, and thus won't be able to give him more children. And concidering that Rhaegar's three siblings died in infancy, the fact that he has one son with Elia, who has weak health, there is a high possibility that her baby is also unhealthy, and may be too weak to live long. Thus continuation of Rhaegar's line is very fragile. If his single son will die, it will end. So to ensure continuity of Targaryen's dinasty, Rhaegar has to remarry. Thus his marriage with Elia should be annulled.

Martells withheld from him critical information about Elia's poor health. This could also be basis for either divorce or annulment.

No, I don't think that is at all plausible within the context of the books. There is no basis for such an annulment in the books. Elia produced two children in about as many years, including a male heir, and there is no indication the children had any health issues. People are literally pulling annulment out of thin air.

[Bael's Bastard]

8 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Even if Elia did believe Rhaegar, all of his actions revolved around helping Aegon fulfil his prophecy something which included a Visenya not a Jon.

That's presumptuous. He named his eldest child Rhaenys, not Visenya. So right off the bat the idea of him trying to mimic Aegon and his sisters falls flat.

[Pikachu101]

10 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Rhaegar could demand annulment on basis of Elia's infertility and weak health.

 

That’s not grounds for an annulment, Elia’s given him an heir and weak health means nothing. Also who is the Maester telling everyone Elia can’t have anymore children? Could it be a man whose alliegance is to another house and is hoping a certain blonde will become Rhaegar’s wife…

12 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Thus continuation of Rhaegar's line is very fragile. If his single son will die, it will end.

Rhaegar thinks Aegon’s the PTWP, all of his actions leading up to Robert’s Rebellion revolved around this very belief so I doubt it ever occurred to him Aegon would die. Also Rhaegar has a brother so the dynasty would continue through him, so again no basis for an annulment. 

[Pikachu101]

2 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

So right off the bat the idea of him trying to mimic Aegon and his sisters falls flat.

True perhaps he named his daughter because he simply liked the same but then Aegon came along and only then did he realise that there needs to be a third head. Visenya’s just a name but the idea is the same; Aegon saves Westeros with his sister wives as a the three heads of the dragon. Regardless of his reason I don’t think he was expecting Lyanna to give him a boy.