Military Strengths and More!

[Bernie Mac]

7 hours ago, direpupy said:

And this proves you have not read the posts in this tread from the beginning, congratulations your a troll

Good comeback. 

You have shown zero evidence while there are direct quotes about the number of men that the Gold Cloaks and Lannisters have while 50-70k is not an unreasonable assertion to the amount of Reach men there are. 

 

I'm sorry that your argument is so lacking in any textual evidence that you have to whine that others must be trolling than accept your opinion as fact. Time to grow up I think, Pup. 

[Corvo the Crow]

With my post on the previous page stating the Vale is smaller than domains of other kingdoms and even some great lords, It got me thinking is it possible Hightowers could have 20000 or even more?

They have greatly outnumbered the 9000 blacks in Tumbleton despite earlier losses. Considering how armies in Dance of the Dragons are much smaller compared to the armies at the time of the books and Reach still being able to raise at least another 20000 with thousands guarding Old Town, it doesn't seem that far fetched for Hightowers, who control a chunk of land perhaps around the size of the Vale in a very fertile region to have this many men.

[Tygett Lannister]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

With my post on the previous page stating the Vale is smaller than domains of other kingdoms and even some great lords, It got me thinking is it possible Hightowers could have 20000 or even more?

They have greatly outnumbered the 9000 blacks in Tumbleton despite earlier losses. Considering how armies in Dance of the Dragons are much smaller compared to the armies at the time of the books and Reach still being able to raise at least another 20000 with thousands guarding Old Town, it doesn't seem that far fetched for Hightowers, who control a chunk of land perhaps around the size of the Vale in a very fertile region to have this many men.

Armies in Dance are probably smaller because it is a civil war among Targareyens and nobles don't really care that much so they just send a few soldiers to one side also dragons are factor. This war now is different.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

With my post on the previous page stating the Vale is smaller than domains of other kingdoms and even some great lords, It got me thinking is it possible Hightowers could have 20000 or even more?

They have greatly outnumbered the 9000 blacks in Tumbleton despite earlier losses. Considering how armies in Dance of the Dragons are much smaller compared to the armies at the time of the books and Reach still being able to raise at least another 20000 with thousands guarding Old Town, it doesn't seem that far fetched for Hightowers, who control a chunk of land perhaps around the size of the Vale in a very fertile region to have this many men.

The reference was to the geographic size of the Vale, which is the narrow fertile valley at the centre of the Kingdom of Mountain and Vale. This area is smaller than the domain of some of the great lords of other areas. It does not say that some great lords can raise larger armies than the Arryns. It just says that some great lords rule larger areas than the Vale proper.

And here you would think of most of the Northern great lords, who rule vast areas of territory. Think of the Dustins, Umbers, Karstarks, Ryswells etc, who all rule territories of around 50,000 square miles or more.

But no great lord can raise more men than the entire Kingdom of the Vale. Not even close.

[direpupy]

15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Good comeback. 

You have shown zero evidence while there are direct quotes about the number of men that the Gold Cloaks and Lannisters have while 50-70k is not an unreasonable assertion to the amount of Reach men there are. 

 

I'm sorry that your argument is so lacking in any textual evidence that you have to whine that others must be trolling than accept your opinion as fact. Time to grow up I think, Pup. 

Again read the discussion in this tread, your response showed that you did not read it at all, and yes that makes you a troll.

Stating a fact is not whining, your response is very weak mostly because they only one who did not present any evidence is you.

[Corvo the Crow]

10 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The reference was to the geographic size of the Vale, which is the narrow fertile valley at the centre of the Kingdom of Mountain and Vale. This area is smaller than the domain of some of the great lords of other areas. It does not say that some great lords can raise larger armies than the Arryns. It just says that some great lords rule larger areas than the Vale proper.

And here you would think of most of the Northern great lords, who rule vast areas of territory. Think of the Dustins, Umbers, Karstarks, Ryswells etc, who all rule territories of around 50,000 square miles or more.

But no great lord can raise more men than the entire Kingdom of the Vale. Not even close.

Was it? It is confusing sometimes with all the name changes; the region which was once called the Mountain and the Vale simply being called Vale now or Kingdom of Hills and Rivers being also called Kingdom of Trident. Trident is just a small portion of the area which is now called Riverlands, which also includes hills like the Teats and High Heart.

But even with it only being the Vale of Arryn, this still stands however, armies in Dance are much smaller than those in the current story and yet Hightowers have this huge army so it makes sense they have more men now too.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Was it? It is confusing sometimes with all the name changes; the region which was once called the Mountain and the Vale simply being called Vale now or Kingdom of Hills and Rivers being also called Kingdom of Trident. Trident is just a small portion of the area which is now called Riverlands, which also includes hills like the Teats and High Heart.

But even with it only being the Vale of Arryn, this still stands however, armies in Dance are much smaller than those in the current story and yet Hightowers have this huge army so it makes sense they have more men now too.

The Vale itself is only a small part of the overall "Vale" kingdom of today. The Mountains of the Moon and the Fingers cover much of the rest of the territory. But that central valley is apparently among the most fertile parts in all of Westeros, so is very densely populated.

[Corvo the Crow]

@Free Northman Reborn

Assuming you'll give me your permission, I'll add information from your biggest battles thread.

I am hoping in this way we'll get a single thread on all things militarily related and hopefully get it pinned so we won't have threads covering exactly the same thing or something near about the same sprouting every week or two.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

@Free Northman Reborn

Assuming you'll give me your permission, I'll add information from your biggest battles thread.

I am hoping in this way we'll get a single thread on all things militarily related and hopefully get it pinned so we won't have threads covering exactly the same thing or something near about the same sprouting every week or two.

Sure, feel free. Good luck getting a consolidated thread going though. I reckon there have been a couple of dozen or so incarnations of this topic, in different guises, over the years.

[Corvo the Crow]

Not directly related to actual military strengths, but more on distances, land sizes or whatever
 

Quote

 

Joss nodded. "If it please His Grace—"

"His Grace is hunting across the Blackwater," Ned said, wondering how a man could live his whole life a few days ride from the Red Keep and still have no notion what his king looked like.

 

Joss is from Sherrer, which is located on Redfork, between Riverrun and Pinkmaiden

[Corvo the Crow]

Edited first post, regional information are now under spoilers for less eye sore. Also added some new information under both regions and other stuff.

[Corvo the Crow]

Also started adding some known distances between locations, to get some idea on land sizes.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I had another look at the original post based on your latest edits. I randomly picked Dorne for some commentary, assuming a gradual editing of the post to refine it over time.

So regarding Dorne. You have them at 10-15k. This in my view is too low.

A nice reference is that centuries ago, before the arrival of Nymeria and House Martell's ascent, Dorne was split roughly three ways between the three dominant petty kings of the time. They were Houses Dayne, Yronwood and Fowler. And during this time King Ferris Fowler invaded the Reach with 10,000 men.

While this by no means gives us a definite number for the whole of Dorne, it does give us a nice idea what a King in charge of approximately a third of Dorne was able to raise at the time.

A rough strength of 30,000 for Dorne would also make it more plausible for them to have a rumoured (though inflated) strength of 50k. It seems unlikely that a paltry 15k men will be mistaken for 50k in any plausible manner.

30k seems more accurate for Dorne, in my view.

[Corvo the Crow]

10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I had another look at the original post based on your latest edits. I randomly picked Dorne for some commentary, assuming a gradual editing of the post to refine it over time.

So regarding Dorne. You have them at 10-15k. This in my view is too low.

A nice reference is that centuries ago, before the arrival of Nymeria and House Martell's ascent, Dorne was split roughly three ways between the three dominant petty kings of the time. They were Houses Dayne, Ironwood and Fowler. And during this time King Ferris Fowler alone invaded the Reach with 10,000 men.

While this by no means gives us a definite number for the whole of Dorne, it does give us a nice idea what a King in charge of approximatelt a third of Dorne was able to raise at the time.

A rough strength of 30,000 for Dorne would also make it more plausible for them to have a rumoured (though inflated) strength of 50k. It seems unlikely that a paltry 15k men will be mistaken for 50k in any plausible manner.

30k seems more accurate for Dorne, in my view.

I have considered giving it a higher number, 25-30k, to make it in line with GRRM saying that North, Vale and Dorne are roughly equal in strength but that was said in the days Dorne was still taken as 50k.

There's also the Vulture King with supposedly 30000 men to take into account but from memory(could be wrong) these 30000 include people joining him from all over the land around the Marches with perhaps whole villages joining him, not only from Dorne but from Stormlands and perhaps even Reach. So it seems much in line with Mance's "host" of also 30000. Again, I may not be remembering correctly.

On 50k vs 15k, I don't think it's mistaken for 50k men; 10000 men died in the battle for Dorne, and later 50000 more died holding it so giving them a high number is somewhat justifiable to make the king look not so incompetent.

I also couldn't put Stormlands much above 20000 no matter how much I tried so with Dorne only sending 10000 during RR and being the least populous of the 7K, I left it like that on purpose, so it would be lower than Stormlands.

 

 

 

 

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

48 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I have considered giving it a higher number, 25-30k, to make it in line with GRRM saying that North, Vale and Dorne are roughly equal in strength but that was said in the days Dorne was still taken as 50k.

There's also the Vulture King with supposedly 30000 men to take into account but from memory(could be wrong) these 30000 include people joining him from all over the land around the Marches with perhaps whole villages joining him, not only from Dorne but from Stormlands and perhaps even Reach. So it seems much in line with Mance's "host" of also 30000. Again, I may not be remembering correctly.

On 50k vs 15k, I don't think it's mistaken for 50k men; 10000 men died in the battle for Dorne, and later 50000 more died holding it so giving them a high number is somewhat justifiable to make the king look not so incompetent.

I also couldn't put Stormlands much above 20000 no matter how much I tried so with Dorne only sending 10000 during RR and being the least populous of the 7K, I left it like that on purpose, so it would be lower than Stormlands.

 

 

 

 

 

We have no upper limit for the Stormlands at this point in time. We don't know how many Stormlanders actually joined Renly, and we don't know how many still remained home.

35k for the Stormlands is in no way off the table as yet.

EDIT

For the record, I place the Stormlands at 30k, in line with the semicanon RPG numbers.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

We have no upper limit for the Stormlands at this point in time. We don't know how many Stormlanders actually joined Renly, and we don't know how many still remained home.

35k for the Stormlands is in no way off the table as yet.

EDIT

For the record, I place the Stormlands at 30k, in line with the semicanon RPG numbers.

During the conquest they have 10k men, maybe even fewer. Morrigen, Dondarrion, Fell, Buckler, Errol are known contributors in the battle. We aren't told of anyone not joining and with these lords' placement on the map I think it's safe to assume all joined, with perhaps Estermont and Tarth and such as exception since they aren't on the mainland.

Calculation for Stormlands in Conquest:

 Aegon lands with fewer than 1500, Rosby and Stokeworth surrender and likely commit forces, Duskendale and Maidenpool come with 3000 men, lose a battle and surrender to join Aegon.

Aegon splits his forces, majority goes with Orys to Stormlands. Mooton goes with Aegon.

Orys loses 1000 men against Errol, Buckler and Fell. Later Durrandon has near twice the number of Orys, which has lost 1000 men.

 

Calculation for Stormlands during Wot5K

Apart from some houses that doesn't take any part, Renly has most of the Stormlands join him.

He has ~20K horseman and ~60K infantry, with another ~10K with Mace.

16-18K horseman join Stannis

Mace kills many infantrymen, chiefly Florents. It's safe to assume he also kills the Stormlanders since they know owe their fealty to Stannis, with him being Renly's heir.

Thousands(not 10K or above) die in Blackwater also Half of Stannis' army(or was it van?) switch sides during battle.

After the battle there are 50-70K "Roses" left, these include Stormlanders since we see those who swear fealty to Joffrey are forgiven and Randyl uses Stormlander men in Duskendale.

So of 90K total Renly men, 20-40 die.

From 16-18K men Fewer than 10K die.

Tarly has killed 10K at the very least, with a bit over 30K at most.

Bit over 30K includes not only Stormlanders and Florents but likely also some other Reach houses since many Joined Stannis.

 

 

 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

Putting Dorne at 10K - 15K when they sent 10K to fight at the Trident seems a mite absurd. They clearly aren't going to strip the country of every fighting man. We can agree on that. 5K seems like it would barely exceed the garrisons of the lordly houses. Even the landed knights are going to have household guards or men-at-arms in their retinue. Garrison of Griffin's Roost was at least 10 people (4 leftover, swords ringing out in 6 different places, 2 men on gate duty, one man pouring cold oil), and the holding is is tiny compared to what it used to be. 

[Corvo the Crow]

23 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Putting Dorne at 10K - 15K when they sent 10K to fight at the Trident seems a mite absurd. They clearly aren't going to strip the country of every fighting man. We can agree on that. 5K seems like it would barely exceed the garrisons of the lordly houses. Even the landed knights are going to have household guards or men-at-arms in their retinue. Garrison of Griffin's Roost was at least 10 people (4 leftover, swords ringing out in 6 different places, 2 men on gate duty, one man pouring cold oil), and the holding is is tiny compared to what it used to be. 

They wouldn't send all, yes but how much would they send? War had been going on for some time so they had quite a long time to gather their forces and Dorne also has a member of their ruling house under threat should the royalists lose. They would send as many as they are able to.

Garrisons won't take up 5K I doubt even the greathouses of Dorne exceed 100 men in their garrisons, with perhaps an exception here and there.

A portion of household guards are also taken to battle so a garrison during wartime would be much smaller then one in peacetime, especially if the said castle is thought to be safe from attacks.

For some other garrisons,

Tumbleton 40

Eyrie  20

Winterfell 200

Storm's End 300

Gates of Moon 300

Rook's rest 100

Riverrun 200

Twins (two castles and a tower in middle) 400

Standfast 1-3

Sow's Horn 10

Moat Cailin (Eddard's intentional garrison) 200

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Tarly has killed 10K at the very least, with a bit over 30K at most.

 

eh? When did this happen? I hope this is not in reference to Bitterbridge because there is no chance that 10k died in that fracas and certainly not 30k. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

References to the Rebellion seem a bit pointless. So Dorne sent 10k men. Well, between the North, Riverlands, Vale and Stormlands the rebels had around 35k men at the Trident. It seems therefore that around 10k was the average contribution of each kingdom. I'm sure no one is suggesting that the North or the Vale for that matter has a strength of 10k men.