Harrenhall Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes

[PrettyPig]

10 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Do they only grow in Winterfell though? It was the year of the false spring. Winter roses are of renowned beauty. I was under the impression there was only one crown in each tournament, provided by the hosting house - that would have been Lyanna's crown. 

Yes, I’m more inclined to think that  Rhaegar was responsible for the flowers...with assistance from the Whents, which is crackpot unto itself.   The roses were meant as a message...and Rhaegar wasn’t a stupid guy, folks.   Remember that he had already gotten Tywin Lannister’s seal of approval at Duskendale— as a teenager, no less— and my eyebrows go up at anyone who passes the Lion Lord Litmus Test with flying colors, given Tywin’s reputation and known deeds, yanno?   I think Rhaegar was just as bad and just as crafty as his father’s longtime Hand.   He knew what he was doing/saying with those roses.

[PrettyPig]

15 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Did Bael take both the daughter of the North (Stark) and Alysanne (south)? 

As Aegon had Rhaenys and Visenya?

Did Mance take Lyanna and Ashara Dayne? and if so? Where was Rhaegar who was obsessed with prophecy?

I haven’t read those threads, but yes, I agree that both girls were involved.  I have done a ton of work on this for a Fisherman’s Daughter theory and am 100% certain that Lyanna and Ashara are “sisters” in a sense, and Rhaegar has something to do with both of them.   So does Ned, also in a weird parallel to Aegon and his sisters.

[AlaskanSandman]

15 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

I haven’t read those threads, but yes, I agree that both girls were involved.  I have done a ton of work on this for a Fisherman’s Daughter theory and am 100% certain that Lyanna and Ashara are “sisters” in a sense, and Rhaegar has something to do with both of them.   So does Ned, also in a weird parallel to Aegon and his sisters.

Should def check them out then, you may find them interesting. Id start with Bael then the Mance one

[AlaskanSandman]

26 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

I haven’t read those threads, but yes, I agree that both girls were involved.  I have done a ton of work on this for a Fisherman’s Daughter theory and am 100% certain that Lyanna and Ashara are “sisters” in a sense, and Rhaegar has something to do with both of them.   So does Ned, also in a weird parallel to Aegon and his sisters.

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Sansa IV

Sansa had wept too, the first day. Even within the stout walls of Maegor's Holdfast, with her door closed and barred, it was hard not to be terrified when the killing began. She had grown up to the sound of steel in the yard, and scarcely a day of her life had passed without hearing the clash of sword on sword, yet somehow knowing that the fighting was real made all the difference in the world. She heard it as she had never heard it before, and there were other sounds as well, grunts of pain, angry curses, shouts for help, and the moans of wounded and dying men. In the songs, the knights never screamed nor begged for mercy.

So she wept, pleading through her door for them to tell her what was happening, calling for her father, for Septa Mordane, for the king, for her gallant prince. If the men guarding her heard her pleas, they gave no answer. The only time the door opened was late that night, when they thrust Jeyne Poole inside, bruised and shaking. "They're killing everyone," the steward's daughter had shrieked at her. She went on and on. The Hound had broken down her door with a warhammer, she said. There were bodies on the stair of the Tower of the Hand, and the steps were slick with blood. Sansa dried her own tears as she struggled to comfort her friend. They went to sleep in the same bed, cradled in each other's arms like sisters.

 

 

 

Think you just helped me find my mirror for them

Peter who seems to be mimicking Bael the Bard. What does Peter know?

[Seams]

I'm interested in these theories about Brandon's actions at the Harrenhal gathering and in the larger context. Trying to piece together the information shared by Lady Dustin along with the little scraps we get from others has created an interesting puzzle around this character.

On a related note, I've always been suspicious that Steffon Baratheon failed in his mission and was unable to find a bride for Rhaegar. Yet the same Steffon Baratheon was able to arrange a match with House Stark for his own first-born son. (I realize the arrangement may have been made after Steffon's death.) Something doesn't add up here. Granted, Lyanna may have been seen as too young for Rhaegar at the time the crown sought a queen for the heir to the throne. But we are told that the Martells had been touring with  Oberyn and Elia for quite awhile, seeking suitable matches. The Lannisters turned down Elia for Jaime because they already had a deal made with the Tullys. Why did Rhaegar (or his father, on his behalf) settle for a bride who couldn't find a match elsewhere? We know that betrothals are often made before a girl has "flowered," so the age range for Lyanna and Rhaegar seems viable. Was it really so difficult to find a willing match for the crown prince, who was described as smart and handsome, a good singer and (later) buff and good at fighting? Did Steffon truly fail at finding a match, or was he part of a larger plot to deprive the Targaryens of certain alliances?

I suppose Steffon might have done his best to serve the king, but others were undermining his efforts. Maybe his death was also part of the subversive plot, and Jon Arryn was the guardian who brokered the marriage deal between the Starks and Robert Baratheon. What would that tell us about Jon Arryn's role?

Back to the OP.

I am still parsing the paragraph describing the people and interactions at the feast.

Quote

  Under Harren’s roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head.

A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night’s Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf… but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

Is it possible that the "storm lord" mentioned in this description is not Robert Baratheon? The Baratheons took the Durrandon "daughter, colors and words" after slaying the last storm king, according to the wiki. Aegon named Orys Baratheon the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands, as we know. But what if the little Crannogman doesn't recognize the House named by Aegon the Conqueror, and thinks of the Storm Lord as an ancient title that was passed down in some other way. I've always wondered whether Beric Dondarrion might be as much an heir to the title as any Baratheon. Some line in the World book says that the Durrandon bloodline survived in the Baratheon line, but it's been very watered down over the years. I wonder whether that line came from one of our unreliable narrators and whether someone else might better fit the Storm Lord title, in the eyes of the little Crannogman.

Even the phrasing "drank down" raises a literary question in my mind. GRRM often uses phrasing that is ambiguous, and this makes it sound as if the storm lord had a cup that contained the knight of skulls and kisses, and he drank it down. On another level, of course, it could also mean that they were competing to see who could drink the most without falling down and the KofSaK lost. What would it mean to drink skulls and kisses? Did he internalize death and love?

I am also stuck on the "pup brother" reference, so I did a search on "pup" and found something interesting:

"As large as the Mountain That Rides?" Ser Karyl said. "I have never met one."

"Nor has any man here," Ser Raymun added hotly. "Even his brother is a pup beside him. My lords, open your eyes. Do you need to see his seal on the corpses? It was Gregor."

(AGoT, Eddard XI)

The brother in that passage has to be a reference to Sandor Clegane. I tried to think of when someone threw wine at him and remembered Arya treating his wounds with hot wine and bandages made from the cloak of the squire she killed. Then she brings him water in his helmet, with the liquid sloshing out through the eye holes. The Hound says he wanted wine, not water. Maybe splashing someone with water causes them to stop fighting, while wine "baptism" causes the person to become a jouster / fighter?

We assumed the pup brother was Benjen at Harrenhal, but who else has been described as a pup brother? I think Jon Snow is a good candidate: Robb Stark finds the direwolf pups and he is known as the young wolf, which is another name for a pup. So Jon Snow (or Brandon or Rickon, I suppose) would be the pup brother. It might be that GRRM has carefully crafted a paragraph here that will apply to more than one situation. Dany is no longer a maid by the Westeros definition, but it would not surprise me if we could find circumstances where she will "dance" with someone fitting each of the descriptions in the paragraph.

 

[Curled Finger]

On 1/9/2018 at 3:49 PM, Faera said:

I think it is interesting because in a weird way Meera is a very fitting teller of the tale as both the daughter of the LCM who first recounted it to her but as a Lyanna-type character who matches both the small stature of the crannog-people but also the body of a woman in general.

For what it's worth, even Meera and Jojen aren't necessarily agreed on who the knight was:

Jojen always seems to be such a spoilsport, isn't he? 

As we were saying earlier in the thread, I do feel that if anything character best represents Howland at that sort of age (though she is currently a few years younger) it is Meera. I'm currently having a look through the Bran chapters again to pick up on moments where she exhibits LCM vibes to see how much might be a "like father, like daughter" thing and how much is just her projecting herself into the role of the KotLT. With this merging of the LCM of the tale and the teller, it'll be interesting to pick it apart a bit.

I would like more POVs on it, not just a Bran vision though that would also be cool... I remember a while back on another thread a couple of us even speculated that Bran might have even helped the KotLT by being the "god" that answers the LCM's prayers.

If the KotLT was essentially the conspiracy of a three (at best, four if Ned played even the smallest role) teenagers, then it would be interesting to see what was thought of the KotLT from an outside perspective. The best hope for this would be Barristan Selmy, who has already thought back to it. Wyman Manderly (Merman) might be another; he would have been much younger then and I think he mentions he was once a tourney knight, so he might have competed.

Now that I think about it, Jorah Mormont might be a promising bet, too? We know the Mormonts (Bears) were there so he might have competed as well. He might have even been Lord at the time and met Howland Reed at the Stark bannerman benches (same with Wyman).

You know you're a geek when you get excited about secondary and tertiary characters in a massive story to mention events from the corrupted memory of nearly 2 decades passing.  Ah man, Faera, that would be great!  I do hope we get something.   Anything else and you've given us more than Bran's walk ins to hope for.   

[Curled Finger]

On 1/9/2018 at 4:57 PM, LynnS said:

LOL! Nah.

I'm so sorry for that.   I don't know if you've been watching the Brienne topic, but it's still going strong.   I think I got "reply brain".  I vow to do better in both topics and those in between.   

[Curled Finger]

On 1/9/2018 at 6:14 PM, Yaya said:

"and now for something completely different ...."

please carry on everyone!

(i'm in the beginning of a re-read (in "Clash" right now) and am trying like 4377 to catch up and comment along on this all with a fresh pile of thoughts:

 

Ah, I'm glad you got lost here, Yaya! Happy New Year!   I look forward to your comments and thoughts if you ever get caught up.   No doubt making your wonderful lists and charts and figuring it all out.   You are always a good break.   

[Curled Finger]

On 1/9/2018 at 6:24 PM, PrettyPig said:

I have been quietly stalking this thread since it was started because the whole Howland/IoF/ToHH thing is pretty much ground zero for all my tinfoil (and admittedly there’s a lot of tinfoil).  Anyway, just wanted to comment on this sweet observation about Brandon's actions and character, as it ties in with something else I had thought about not too long ago.

ETA:  sorry for the rambling, I swear this has to do with the ToHH.

In cracking some pots elsewhere, I realized that there’s a parallel happening with, believe it or not, Dany’s early AGOT chapters and the snippets we get about Lyanna Stark.   I won’t go into ugly detail (unless someone wants it, which I’m guessing no one will), but basically it all boils down to a version of the "one to bed and one to dread and one to love“ HotU prophecy –  for this conversation I want to focus on Dany’s marriage to Drogo in what I consider the "mostly dread" phase (and yes I said that in a Monty Python voice), because it involves... a rash, greedy, scheming older brother.   

I don’t want to rehash the entirety of Dany’s AGOT chapters because we all know those details already.   However, the takeaway is that against her own wishes and desires Dany is handed over to KHAL Drogo, a king in his own right, just because her big bro Viserys wants an army so he can take over the Seven Kingdoms.     Viserys works out this near-literal horse trade using his little sister as the bargaining chip.    Dany gets married off to the horselord, and is used nightly by her brutish and indifferent husband...until, of course, she effectively seduces him (using her handmaiden’s tricks and tips) and begins to feel real affection for him.   Soon enough, she becomes pregnant with Rhaego, the child destined to become the Stallion That Mounts the World.  Everyone should be happy - Viserys gets to reclaim his kingdom, and Drogo gets his Stallion That Was Promised, right?  Despite these glad tidings, Viserys is increasingly unhappy...because he feels that Drogo is taking his sweet time on their bargain and potentially cheating him out of his payment.     Stupid Viserys challenges Drogo in his own sacred hall, and Drogo later repays him for his insolence by giving him the golden crown – a classic case of "be careful what you wish for; you just might get it".

 

RE: that last paragraph, let’s talk about the similarity between drunk Viserys strolling into Vaes Dothrak where the  "king" (khal) sits his high seat, and doing the ultimate no-no which is brandishing his sword in the sacred city, and the "gallant fool" Brandon Stark thundering into King’s Landing where Mad King Aerys on the Iron Throne is just itching to burn somebody, and shouting for Rhaegar to "come out and die".      Six of one, half dozen of the other, amirite?
 

 

This parallel leads me to believe that there may have been some kind of brokered or attempted deal between Brandon (the older brother) and Rhaegar (the prince/king/royal), with Lyanna in the middle.    Rickard Stark had made the betrothal between Lyanna and Robert, and I think Brandon may have been bargaining with Rhaegar behind everyone’s back about another arrangement – and someone reneged on the bargain.  The falling apart of this deal was on subtle display at the Tourney. 
 

One thing I'm not sure of still is what direction the bargain went...was it Brandon opting for some kind of personal gain through a deal with Prince Rhaegar, or was Rhaegar trying to barter for Brandon Stark's only sister?   That last bolded and underlined makes me think it may have been the latter - the prince wanted what was promised.   Did Brandon Stark break his promise?

A final observation about this is that when Lyanna's brother Brandon and father Rickard die at Aerys' hands in the throne room of the Red Keep, Brandon dies first by strangulation from the Myrish device around his throat.   As Rickard died in the wildfire, "his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire".    When Dany watched her king husband give her brother his crown of melted gold in Drogo's hall,, her father Aerys has been long dead due to Jaime Lannister slashing his throat in the throne room of the Red Keep.

 Whatever that deal may have been, it involved the blue roses – a laurel, a CROWN like that given to Viserys by the KING.    According to Ned, the laurel also contained thorns, much like the one worn by Christ at the crucifixion...a mocking gesture that intended to cause both emotional and physical pain, much like crowning someone with a pot of boiling gold.   The recipient is different, but the message is the same – "Enjoy your crown...it's the only one you're getting, sucker."       Brandon, as we are told, did not in fact like Lyanna's crown, and I'm pretty sure Viserys didn't care too much for his either.  :/  

Anyway, there are many more nuggets peppered throughout Meera's tale that I believe are hints to what our little crannogman knows - the one that most interests me being her statement "Sometimes the knights are the monsters, Bran" -  and a WHOLE SLEW of echoes between Lyanna and Daenerys pregnant with the "bloody bastard foal" that Viserys threatens to cut out of her, but I have dumped enough crackpot for now, methinks.   Nutshell:   Brandon Stark may have been up to something not so nice and definitely not in line with the rest of the Stark crew.  This could encompass his mystery errand, his anger at the blue rose laurel, the rush to KL, and possibly even the distraction of his sister's betrothed by one of Rhaegar's main men.

I've been quietly stalking a bit myself the past few days.   Pshaw, Pretty Pig, the Others take your shyness!    I vow to catch up on everything tonight.   Let's talk about some things here...reading...GASP!...reading...Gads, you're right--gasp!...oh, that last bolded and underlined...Oh my...gasp...I can't take it any more.   And I'm working backward, I beg your pardon as I see you've made more replies...

What do you think this bargain may have been?   What would give Brandon the right to bargain anything involving his sister?  Are you thinking Rhaegar approached Brandon about the pact of Ice and Fire?  Holy cow! 

I get the crown comparisons.   How do you know Brandon didn't like Lyanna's crown?  Is there a quote or is this a connection you made?  This just gets better and better.  

Pretty Pig--Wow!   I'll read through the rest to see if you let any more of this really wonderful concept out.  Just Wow.   I'm sure glad you finally spoke up and joined us! 

[Curled Finger]

On 1/9/2018 at 6:46 PM, Widow's Watch said:

No he's not. And I actually posed the question in the RLJ thread on whether there may have been some animosity from Brandon directed at Rhaegar before the tourney began. 

Brandon more than likely challenged Rhaegar to the joust. This is like the best way to strike a prince without losing a limb for it or your life being forfeit. Then we have his reaction to the crowning where it sounds like he would have gotten physically violent if he was not restrained. And lastly, we have him rushing to King's Landing after he was told god knows what and challenging Rhaegar to come out and die.

It just seems like things were slowly escalating to that point of no return.

I like the Viserys/Brandon parallels you brought up, but for my money, the more I look at some of the quotes, the more I wonder if R&L didn't know each other before the tourney and things were just going to go down between them anyway.

You have every right to laugh at me when I confide in you that I am very reluctant to join the 5 page + topics.  It's intimidating.  I do, however, get hosed into posting in hate threads at unawares.   I don't think I've ever posted in an R+L=J topic.   To be honest, I am more interested in other things than this thing, RLJ.  I've not read this much referenced RLJ thread.   My observations from complete ignorance...

Brandon's behavior was rash at Kings Landing and he was not mentioned much at Harrenhall, at least not comparatively.  I'm unclear about the extent of Little Finger's injuries during the duel.  The little jerk lived so they couldn't have been too grievous?  Seems to me cutting your betrothed's father's ward is maybe not such a great idea?  Or perhaps he acted valiantly and just meant to leave Little Finger some pride for taking the duel at all?  I don't know.   Brandon strangled himself in an effort to save his father.  Do we actually know anything else about the Wild Wolf?  I'm rereading the series.  I am at chapter 22 AGOT.   Ned mentioned Brandon, but he was being pouty about having to drink from the cup he was not meant to.  I got no feeling about how Ned felt about his brother.  Do we know for certain where Brandon's politics were?  

We have discussed the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna may have known each other prior to Harrenhall.  Lyanna is a noble maiden so I doubt she was allowed to be by herself much.  I expect she had either Brandon or Benjen with her nearly constantly.  Let me try to spin this a bit.  We know Rhaegar was immersed in prophecy.  It was his passion.  Is it possible that Rhaegar approached Brandon about the possibility of fulfilling the pact of Ice and Fire as an extension of his TPTWP prophecy?  That he didn't actually know Lyanna, but knew of her and made his play or inquiries regarding breaking her betrothal to Robert?  

[Curled Finger]

On 1/9/2018 at 7:03 PM, divica said:

I read that discussion and agreed it was quite strange. Do we know any backstory about brandon? Like is it possible that him and rhaegar met before harrenhall? Otherwise I think it must be related to rickard Southern ambitions.

Why the Southron Ambitions?  

[Curled Finger]

On 1/9/2018 at 7:16 PM, LynnS said:

That's a fascinating take on Brandon doing his own horse trading. For some reason, I thought there might have been some trading involving Ned and Ashara. 

I'm reminded of Lady Dustin saying essentially the same thing about her father serving her up to Brandon or any Stark that came along in hopes of an alliance.  This is the place where Brandon was fostered and he took what he wanted or was allowed to take.  

 

 

 

Exactly.  

[Curled Finger]

On 1/9/2018 at 7:41 PM, PrettyPig said:

I definitely believe they knew each other, but I don't think it was romantic.   IMO Lyanna had eyes for someone else - part of the parallel between her story and Dany's involves three relationships for each girl.  We know Dany's three:  Drogo, Daario, Hizdhar.  For Lyanna we know about Robert, and can only speculate on Rhaegar, and if I'm right, there was a middle one for her too - her version of Daario, the hot fling with a playboy who is beneath her, but steals her heart anyway.   (This dovetails with the earlier conversation here about Mance, although he's not the one I peg for it.)

That's wild talk for another thread though.       My point here was that Ned, Lyanna, Benjen, and Howland were on one side of things, and Brandon another.    Remember, it was all meant for Brandon...I think he opted to go rogue and do his own thing based on his "status" and it got him killed.

Exactly.   Brandon certainly has the "I do what I want" history, I won't be surprised one bit if that extends to a back room deal with the Prince of Dragonstone.

Also, forgot to add upthread:   re: Future King Bob in his cups with Richard Lonmouth and being all "Wut? huh?" when Lyanna received the laurel tells me that whatever was going on, he knew nothing about it....but I totally agree that he was being purposely distracted. 

Don't do that.  I'm hooked.   Who is the 3rd fling for Lyanna!!!  

That wine cup war is specifically drawn to our attention along with Ashara's dancing partners.  That's basically what the OP is all about.  There is much more going on than these 2 things, but these are what we get.  Gotta be a reason for it. 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm so sorry for that.   I don't know if you've been watching the Brienne topic, but it's still going strong.   I think I got "reply brain".  I vow to do better in both topics and those in between.   

I'm not about to start correcting you.  That's all.  LOL. 

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I agree and what Ned thinks of Brandon about him knowing what to do is vastly different from the picture that's painted for us by other characters. It's interesting that the future Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North may not have taken interesting in the plight of one of his bannermen. 

While I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said, I actually realized something with your post from last night, and that's that Rhaegar and Brandon probably might have interacted one on one during the tourney.

When a jouster loses, they have to ransom their mount and armor. Brandon entered the joust against Rhaegar, and he was beaten. Unless he sent his squire, this means he had to take his ass to Rhaegar's pavilion to ransom his horse and his armor, which provided opportunity to talk at least once. And I think this may be the crux of it and the whole reason Rhaegar entered the lists in the first place since we are told it's not something he did all that often.

If he's conspiring, lords going in and out of his pavilion wouldn't be all that suspicious. If he wins, these lords have to come to him to ransom their horses, armor and he can engage with them without being called a traitor. This is his opportunity to speak to his lords since Aerys is at the tourney. We know of four people who lost against him. Brandon, a northman, Bronze Yohn, a Valeman, who is still alive and well, and two Kingsguard. I imagine there are more.

Now you're talking!   This is what I hoped to elicit in the OP.  Let's pick up on this and run with it.  Ransom is a brilliant cover--maybe even better than taking council with Wyman in the privvy.  

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

I'm not about to start correcting you.  That's all.  LOL. 

Who will keep me straight if not you!   (You may want to go take a peek at Brienne--your hilt touching has inspired more chatter, Lady.)

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

That's really interesting. I believe Bronze Yohn still has a large part to play in the books. 

Lady, that's yet another list.  Bronze Yohn is mentioned way too many times not to be huge on some level, perhaps more than 1.  We need to know what the runes on his armor either say or do, right? 

[Curled Finger]

14 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Same. Waymar Royce was the very first casualty in the books. I can't imagine this guy won't be there for what's coming. 

I wonder if 

  Hide contents

The tourney being held in the Vale in the Alayne sample chapter won't be another opportunity for some people giving us information on Harrenhal and he is prime candidate for that.

 

I need this. 

[Curled Finger]

14 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Oh, nice.   I didn’t even think about the armor ransoming aspect of it.    So, how many of those that our purple-eyed maiden was noted to have danced with later lost in the joust to the dragon prince?   

Imo it’s pretty clear that Howland thought of Lyanna as a friend....and his notice of particular people at the tourney might be related to “us vs. them” —that is, who protects her and who conspired against her.

Didn't see that coming.   Us and Them.  There was already dissension in the ranks.   Do we have a list of who lost to Rhaegar?  

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

That's a good question. I think it was in the Mystery Knight that Dunc goes to bring his horse and armor because he has no coin to pay the ransom. The snail knight then proceeds to tell him all sorts of things, like how he was paid to kill Dunc, IIRC, and reveals bits and pieces of what's going on at Whitewalls.

My first instinct is to say that Rhaegar did not need to speak to any of the men Ashara danced with, especially if she was being used as a go in between, passing information along. The order we are given of who she danced with was the White Sword, whom I'm assuming is Arthur, then Oberyn and after him Jon Conn. So let's say Arthur gives her the information, she talks to Oberyn right after, and then she dances with Jon Conn and tells him what Oberyn said. 

Ned comes last, but only after Brandon puts her up to it. So I have to wonder if this goes beyond the things that have been discussed, that Brandon was trying to impress Ashara and getting in her pants. That may have been just a very small part of it. 

Even the drinking with Robert and Richard Lonmouth. Those two seem to have spent some time together during the tourney. They're engaged in their wine-cup war at the opening feast and seem to be together when Robert proclaims that he will challenge the KotLT. Maybe that's where things derail with Robert.

I wonder if this isn't the tourney Willas Tyrell was crippled. If that's the case, then this incident would have messed things up even further.

 

I'm not sure how old Mace is, but I thought all the people we see were young people notably sans parents.    Do we know how old Wyllas is?  I'm sure we can figure this small thing out.