Harrenhall Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

My other thought is that Ashara was being used not to pass information necessarily, but instructions - like basically telling them to throw the joust.  Barristan expresses his regret about not winning the tourney, "If I had been a better knight" and all that...I know some folks have interpreted that as his deliberately losing to Rhaegar instead of defeating him honorably the way he should have as a knight of the KG.   Could the White Sword have been Barristan himself?   Obviously we don't get mention of his dancing with Ashara in his POV, but that could be GRRM holding back on the pertinent details as he is wont to do.     If Barristan was instructed to lose by Rhaegar's order but didn't know WHY (because he was left out of the planning, something he DOES mention in his POV), that could be a source of his bitterness as well.  

Just spitballing, obv.  For the record, I also don't think Rhaegar was the great dude that everyone believes him to be either, so IMO a fixed match would be right up his alley.

Not sure about Rhaegar's prowess in knightly sport.   He seems to be very good, but not great.  I read Selmy's recollection as guilt.  I can't see him in on a fix.  It's not a knightly thing to do at all.  We've got some fair reasons and rationale for most of the White Sword identity.  I hope we get verification one day.   As to Ashara, her partners were definitely a method for passing information and that doesn't preclude instruction.   With this in mind, who of the White Swords is the most likely to have begun instructions or plotting?  I will nominate Whent, as he's already been suspected of conspiring of something at Harrenhall.   

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

According to Lady Dustin, Brandon did not want to marry Catelyn and Brandon wouldn't marry her because her house was beneath him.  So I wonder if Brandon set his sights on Ashera and Ned was meant to speak to her on his behalf.   

I'm on the fence with Lady Dustin.  With so little exposure to her I don't know how far we can trust her.  Brandon is dead and Willem is dead and Theon is a captive audience.    Sure, Brandon could have lied to her then again, she could be lying or even misremembering to Theon?  

[Ralphis Baratheon]

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Didn't see that coming.   Us and Them.  There was already dissension in the ranks.   Do we have a list of who lost to Rhaegar?  

Barristan lost to Rhaegar and he danced with Ashara. Brandon lost to Rhaegar and did god know's what with Ashara. That leaves Jon Con, Oberyn and Arthur that danced with Ashara. You have to figure there is a good chance Rhaegar had to face at least one of those guys to win the tourney.

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, Seams said:

I'm interested in these theories about Brandon's actions at the Harrenhal gathering and in the larger context. Trying to piece together the information shared by Lady Dustin along with the little scraps we get from others has created an interesting puzzle around this character.

On a related note, I've always been suspicious that Steffon Baratheon failed in his mission and was unable to find a bride for Rhaegar. Yet the same Steffon Baratheon was able to arrange a match with House Stark for his own first-born son. (I realize the arrangement may have been made after Steffon's death.) Something doesn't add up here. Granted, Lyanna may have been seen as too young for Rhaegar at the time the crown sought a queen for the heir to the throne. But we are told that the Martells had been touring with  Oberyn and Elia for quite awhile, seeking suitable matches. The Lannisters turned down Elia for Jaime because they already had a deal made with the Tullys. Why did Rhaegar (or his father, on his behalf) settle for a bride who couldn't find a match elsewhere? We know that betrothals are often made before a girl has "flowered," so the age range for Lyanna and Rhaegar seems viable. Was it really so difficult to find a willing match for the crown prince, who was described as smart and handsome, a good singer and (later) buff and good at fighting? Did Steffon truly fail at finding a match, or was he part of a larger plot to deprive the Targaryens of certain alliances?

I suppose Steffon might have done his best to serve the king, but others were undermining his efforts. Maybe his death was also part of the subversive plot, and Jon Arryn was the guardian who brokered the marriage deal between the Starks and Robert Baratheon. What would that tell us about Jon Arryn's role?

Back to the OP.

I am still parsing the paragraph describing the people and interactions at the feast.

Is it possible that the "storm lord" mentioned in this description is not Robert Baratheon? The Baratheons took the Durrandon "daughter, colors and words" after slaying the last storm king, according to the wiki. Aegon named Orys Baratheon the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands, as we know. But what if the little Crannogman doesn't recognize the House named by Aegon the Conqueror, and thinks of the Storm Lord as an ancient title that was passed down in some other way. I've always wondered whether Beric Dondarrion might be as much an heir to the title as any Baratheon. Some line in the World book says that the Durrandon bloodline survived in the Baratheon line, but it's been very watered down over the years. I wonder whether that line came from one of our unreliable narrators and whether someone else might better fit the Storm Lord title, in the eyes of the little Crannogman.

Even the phrasing "drank down" raises a literary question in my mind. GRRM often uses phrasing that is ambiguous, and this makes it sound as if the storm lord had a cup that contained the knight of skulls and kisses, and he drank it down. On another level, of course, it could also mean that they were competing to see who could drink the most without falling down and the KofSaK lost. What would it mean to drink skulls and kisses? Did he internalize death and love?

I am also stuck on the "pup brother" reference, so I did a search on "pup" and found something interesting:

"As large as the Mountain That Rides?" Ser Karyl said. "I have never met one."

"Nor has any man here," Ser Raymun added hotly. "Even his brother is a pup beside him. My lords, open your eyes. Do you need to see his seal on the corpses? It was Gregor."

(AGoT, Eddard XI)

The brother in that passage has to be a reference to Sandor Clegane. I tried to think of when someone threw wine at him and remembered Arya treating his wounds with hot wine and bandages made from the cloak of the squire she killed. Then she brings him water in his helmet, with the liquid sloshing out through the eye holes. The Hound says he wanted wine, not water. Maybe splashing someone with water causes them to stop fighting, while wine "baptism" causes the person to become a jouster / fighter?

We assumed the pup brother was Benjen at Harrenhal, but who else has been described as a pup brother? I think Jon Snow is a good candidate: Robb Stark finds the direwolf pups and he is known as the young wolf, which is another name for a pup. So Jon Snow (or Brandon or Rickon, I suppose) would be the pup brother. It might be that GRRM has carefully crafted a paragraph here that will apply to more than one situation. Dany is no longer a maid by the Westeros definition, but it would not surprise me if we could find circumstances where she will "dance" with someone fitting each of the descriptions in the paragraph.

 

It has become a fascinating discussion!   Brandon in this new light is just great food for thought.  Persuasive arguments can be made for Brandon having both noble and not so intentions.  I ask you, too, do you think we can trust Lady Dustin's account of things long past?  Elia does seem a suspect match for the heir apparent to the throne.  Who do you think we can dependably credit with the Tully/Arryn/Baratheon/Stark alliance?  For my money Hoster seems to be the guy most in the middle and likely to start the games.  Do you see anything in Arryn or Rickard that would lead you to believe they were the movers?  Are we sure Aerys didn't want Rhaegar to marry beneath his station?   Cersei wasn't good enough.  A princess may have been the only acceptable Westerosi match.   

There are no guarantees on anything where Westerosi history is concerned, but I am at a loss to explain why anyone else would be described as the Storm Lord when Robert Baratheon is there.  Would our little Crannogman project his own opinions in a story told to his children?  

I don't know Seams, but it's very exciting to have new possibilities with respect to Harrenhal.  

[PrettyPig]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

 Let's talk about some things here...reading...GASP!...reading...Gads, you're right--gasp!...oh, that last bolded and underlined...Oh my...gasp...I can't take it any more.   And I'm working backward, I beg your pardon as I see you've made more replies...

What do you think this bargain may have been?   What would give Brandon the right to bargain anything involving his sister?  Are you thinking Rhaegar approached Brandon about the pact of Ice and Fire?  Holy cow! 

I get the crown comparisons.   How do you know Brandon didn't like Lyanna's crown?  Is there a quote or is this a connection you made?  This just gets better and better. 

Heh...I have been around these forums for a while but mostly lurk and read because my ideas are a bit out there, but every so often I'll dump something that I think people might enjoy!    @LynnS knows me quite well and can testify to the amount of insanity I can pour forth when I put my mind to it.

I'm not sure about the bargain - when I first came up with the Dany/Lyanna/marriage/brother parallel, I had mentally put together two scenarios  for Brandon vs. Rhaegar...kindof a good cop/bad cop thing where I put each guy in each role to see what fit more cleanly.   1) Bad Evil Brandon was basically a mirror to Viserys in that he was trying to trade out Lyanna to Rhaegar  - Rhaegar would get his ice maiden or whatever for his prophecy fulfillment purposes, and Brandon would get something else...maybe full claim to the North as King of Winter once again, or a Handship, something like that.   2)  Rotten Evil Rhaegar was all about prophecy, and was going to get his ice maiden no matter the cost - in this one, there's an inversion to Viserys as Rhaegar tries to entice Brandon with a sweet deal in exchange for Lyanna; after noble Brandon tells him to pound sand, Rhaegar says, "No one turns down the Prince of Dragonstone!" and takes her by force anyway.      Really, both options work equally well and I honestly can't decide which I like more/is more probable.

RE: Brandon not liking the crown, that's from the World Book:

Quote

 

And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. Why would the prince have thus given insult to his own wife, the Princess Elia Martell of Dorne (who was present), unless it was to help him gain the Iron Throne? The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia's delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar's cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king.

Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna's brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister's honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End. Eddard Stark, Brandon's younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased. As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince's gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due...but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth.

 

Semi-canon so take with a grain or ten of salt, but according to crowd witnesses, Brandon was displeased - the eternal question is "why"?     As I said upthread, this further mention of Robert's blasé' initial reaction leads me to think that he was totally not in on whatever was happening, and was just there to drink wine and swing hammers and maybe get in some skirts when Lyanna wasn't looking.   He's just...Robert.   Now his foster father, "Jon Corleone" Arryn, may be another story...

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Don't do that.  I'm hooked.   Who is the 3rd fling for Lyanna!!!  

LOL!!!  There is no way I am rolling out that crazy train in this place!!   Seriously though, I do have some pretty extensive work on this BUT it dovetails with another side pet project of mine, which is correlating ASOIAF plots to old Marvel comic arcs from the 60s and 70s.    Without all that background detail my opinion won't make much sense and will sound absolutely bonkers, so I will keep it in my back pocket for now.  

I do hope that you create a Part Two for this thread, because this has been great!   I really like @Seams musings above about possible "mistaken identities" for some of the ToHH players in Meera's recounting - we all make the mistake of taking everything at face value based on what we think we know, but ol' Syrio has the right of it:  "The seeing, the true seeing, that is the heart of it.  .... Opening your eyes is all that is needing. The heart lies and the head plays tricks with us, but the eyes see true. Look with your eyes. Hear with your ears. Taste with your mouth. Smell with your nose. Feel with your skin. Then comes the thinking, afterward, and in that way knowing the truth."   GRRM is a tricksy crow and this kind of deception is a very GRRMish thing to do - perhaps we need to "see" the KotLT tree tale in a whole new way!

[Curled Finger]

20 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Barristan lost to Rhaegar and he danced with Ashara. Brandon lost to Rhaegar and did god know's what with Ashara. That leaves Jon Con, Oberyn and Arthur that danced with Ashara. You have to figure there is a good chance Rhaegar had to face at least one of those guys to win the tourney.

I don't know Ralphis.  Would Barristan be called simply a White Sword?  Would Arthur Dayne or Gerald Hightower?   How come no one thinks it may have been Jonathor Darry?   Do you recall what Barristan is called in the tournament?  Just for comparison.  My plan was to have a 3 part discussion, separating the 1st part covered in the OP, then the tournament then the aftermath.   We may not even need the 2nd and 3rd with as many twists and turns as this has taken!    I still wonder if the chronology of appearances and events matters here and exactly what our LCM is really seeing.  It's a fascinating study though.  

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Heh...I have been around these forums for a while but mostly lurk and read because my ideas are a bit out there, but every so often I'll dump something that I think people might enjoy!    @LynnS knows me quite well and can testify to the amount of insanity I can pour forth when I put my mind to it.

I'm not sure about the bargain - when I first came up with the Dany/Lyanna/marriage/brother parallel, I had mentally put together two scenarios  for Brandon vs. Rhaegar...kindof a good cop/bad cop thing where I put each guy in each role to see what fit more cleanly.   1) Bad Evil Brandon was basically a mirror to Viserys in that he was trying to trade out Lyanna to Rhaegar  - Rhaegar would get his ice maiden or whatever for his prophecy fulfillment purposes, and Brandon would get something else...maybe full claim to the North as King of Winter once again, or a Handship, something like that.   2)  Rotten Evil Rhaegar was all about prophecy, and was going to get his ice maiden no matter the cost - in this one, there's an inversion to Viserys as Rhaegar tries to entice Brandon with a sweet deal in exchange for Lyanna; after noble Brandon tells him to pound sand, Rhaegar says, "No one turns down the Prince of Dragonstone!" and takes her by force anyway.      Really, both options work equally well and I honestly can't decide which I like more/is more probable.

RE: Brandon not liking the crown, that's from the World Book:

Semi-canon so take with a grain or ten of salt, but according to crowd witnesses, Brandon was displeased - the eternal question is "why"?     As I said upthread, this further mention of Robert's blasé' initial reaction leads me to think that he was totally not in on whatever was happening, and was just there to drink wine and swing hammers and maybe get in some skirts when Lyanna wasn't looking.   He's just...Robert.   Now his foster father, "Jon Corleone" Arryn, may be another story...

LOL!!!  There is no way I am rolling out that crazy train in this place!!   Seriously though, I do have some pretty extensive work on this BUT it dovetails with another side pet project of mine, which is correlating ASOIAF plots to old Marvel comic arcs from the 60s and 70s.    Without all that background detail my opinion won't make much sense and will sound absolutely bonkers, so I will keep it in my back pocket for now.  

I do hope that you create a Part Two for this thread, because this has been great!   I really like @Seams musings above about possible "mistaken identities" for some of the ToHH players in Meera's recounting - we all make the mistake of taking everything at face value based on what we think we know, but ol' Syrio has the right of it:  "The seeing, the true seeing, that is the heart of it.  .... Opening your eyes is all that is needing. The heart lies and the head plays tricks with us, but the eyes see true. Look with your eyes. Hear with your ears. Taste with your mouth. Smell with your nose. Feel with your skin. Then comes the thinking, afterward, and in that way knowing the truth."   Perhaps we need to "see" the KotLT tree tale in a whole new way!

I do recall a conversation maybe 2 years ago about the comic influences on GRRM.  You are a student here and I love that.   You've really brought some exciting ideas to this discussion and I think that even if we aren't thinking the same things, it's clear we both see conspiracy.   I'm so pleased you joined us.   

Thanks so much for the refresher quote from the World Book.  I needed that.   Why is it easier to remember it when someone else quotes it than when you read it yourself?   

By the way, this discussion belongs to everyone who participates or merely lurks.  Don't wait for me to get to the next part, everyone here is an owner and it's a really good discussion when it stays on track.   I do have notes in process, but the OP is not fully organized.   Maybe this weekend.   You've been a treat here, Pretty.  

[Ralphis Baratheon]

12 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I don't know Ralphis.  Would Barristan be called simply a White Sword?  Would Arthur Dayne or Gerald Hightower?   How come no one thinks it may have been Jonathor Darry?   Do you recall what Barristan is called in the tournament?  Just for comparison.

Well according to the asoiaf wiki, which can be wrong and is not 100% canon from what I'v been told, Barristan was the white sword that danced with Ashara. It also states Barristan lost to Rhaegar in the final tilt. Barristan's claim that had he unhorsed Rhaegar in the final tilt, he would have crowned Ashara tQoLaB seems to support that he in fact lost to Rhaegar in the joust. It seems Arthur didn't dance with Ashara at HH, I don't know why I thought that.

17 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Do you recall what Barristan is called in the tournament?

I'd guess "the Bold" as it's has been his nickname since way before the tourney of HH.

18 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

It's a fascinating study though.  

Certainly agree. Almost all of the tourneys in the series are very interesting with HH being the most intriguing. A Dunk and Egg style story about the tourney of HH through Howland Reed's POV would be awesome. Sadly I doubt we'll ever get it, not in that form at least.

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Heh...I have been around these forums for a while but mostly lurk and read because my ideas are a bit out there, but every so often I'll dump something that I think people might enjoy!    @LynnS knows me quite well and can testify to the amount of insanity I can pour forth when I put my mind to it.

Hearing your thoughts always puts a smile on my face and blows away the cobwebs.  If it's insanity, it's divine insanity. 

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm on the fence with Lady Dustin.  With so little exposure to her I don't know how far we can trust her.  Brandon is dead and Willem is dead and Theon is a captive audience.    Sure, Brandon could have lied to her then again, she could be lying or even misremembering to Theon?  

She is someone who knows how to carry a grudge and has every reason to be bitter.  In other words, she doesn't forgive and forget.  She seems a shrewd character in her assessment of maesters, Roose Bolton and the company at the feast.  She is quite correct that Theon wanted to be a Stark.  Whatever her agenda, I don't think she is fudging her observations about Brandon.  She is being quite blunt about it.  She does have a revenge motive though and I don't know why she's fixated on Ned.  GRRM has said that Brandon left a few bastards in his wake and I've always wondered about Lady Dustin and Ramsey Snow and whether or not she foisted a Stark bastard onto Roose Bolton.  She's certainly clever enough to pull it off and lots of people have the same color eyes.  Dirty blue eyes may not be just a Bolton characteristic.  

[Alexis-something-Rose]

 

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm not sure how old Mace is, but I thought all the people we see were young people notably sans parents.    Do we know how old Wyllas is?  I'm sure we can figure this small thing out. 

Olenna tells Sansa that Willas is a bit old for her, so he's got to be in his late twenties, early thirties, since Sansa is like twelve when the Tyrells are trying to marry her off to him. 

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Not sure about Rhaegar's prowess in knightly sport.   He seems to be very good, but not great.  I read Selmy's recollection as guilt.  I can't see him in on a fix.  It's not a knightly thing to do at all.  We've got some fair reasons and rationale for most of the White Sword identity.  I hope we get verification one day.   As to Ashara, her partners were definitely a method for passing information and that doesn't preclude instruction.   With this in mind, who of the White Swords is the most likely to have begun instructions or plotting?  I will nominate Whent, as he's already been suspected of conspiring of something at Harrenhall.   

Cersei gives us an idea about Rhaegar's skills in comparison to Loras's;

"He knows his duties, and there's no better lance..."
"You were better, before you lost your hand. Ser Barristan when he was younger. Arthur Dayne was better, and Prince Rhaegar was a match for even him. Do not prate at me about how fierce the Flower is. He's just a boy." (Cersei IV, AFFC)

So Rhaegar was quite good. 

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Hearing your thoughts always puts a smile on my face and blows away the cobwebs.  If it's insanity, it's divine insanity. 

Ah well said!

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

She is someone who knows how to carry a grudge and has every reason to be bitter.  In other words, she doesn't forgive and forget.  She seems a shrewd character in her assessment of maesters, Roose Bolton and the company at the feast.  She is quite correct that Theon wanted to be a Stark.  Whatever her agenda, I don't think she is fudging her observations about Brandon.  She is being quite blunt about it.  She does have a revenge motive though and I don't know why she's fixated on Ned.  GRRM has said that Brandon left a few bastards in his wake and I've always wondered about Lady Dustin and Ramsey Snow and whether or not she foisted a Stark bastard onto Roose Bolton.  She's certainly clever enough to pull it off and lots of people have the same color eyes.  Dirty blue eyes may not be just a Bolton characteristic.  

I'm rereading the series from the top.  I was a bit surprised to hear (i listen to the books) Cat go to length at describing Luwin as a grey rat, which of course, sent my thoughts to Lady D.  You make a fine point about Lady D. not forgiving nor forgetting.  We base much of our opinion of Brandon on her recollection and assessment.   She loved him and really doesn't say he was an alley cat, only that he took her maidenhead.  I wonder if her bent against Ned doesn't have more to do with misdirection than not having her husband's bones.  As you say, she does hold a grudge and she may be completely truthful about her feelings toward Ned.  Whoa!   I don't recall Brandon having any bastards?  Where can I read this?  (It was totally time for a reread as I've forgotten so much!)  Oh my, what an interesting idea about Lady D having a bastard of her own. 

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

 

Olenna tells Sansa that Willas is a bit old for her, so he's got to be in his late twenties, early thirties, since Sansa is like twelve when the Tyrells are trying to marry her off to him. 

Cersei gives us an idea about Rhaegar's skills in comparison to Loras's;

"He knows his duties, and there's no better lance..."
"You were better, before you lost your hand. Ser Barristan when he was younger. Arthur Dayne was better, and Prince Rhaegar was a match for even him. Do not prate at me about how fierce the Flower is. He's just a boy." (Cersei IV, AFFC)

So Rhaegar was quite good. 

Thanks so much.   I based my statements on Rhaegar having less experience, but I'm so obviously wrong here.  Current reread is rife with things I've misremembered or forgotten, so I am taking notes.  

It's past time to ask what your feelings about Rhaegar are now.   You've defended and pointed fingers at him.   That tells me you're open minded and willing to weigh possibility.  What are your real feelings about him?  Was Harrenhal a cover for some greater scheme?   Were the ransoms just covers for meetings?  (I see there is a brand new tribute topic for this brilliant idea of yours!)  What else have you got up your sleeve that may throw light on the events at Harrenhal? 

[divica]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Thanks so much.   I based my statements on Rhaegar having less experience, but I'm so obviously wrong here.  Current reread is rife with things I've misremembered or forgotten, so I am taking notes.  

It's past time to ask what your feelings about Rhaegar are now.   You've defended and pointed fingers at him.   That tells me you're open minded and willing to weigh possibility.  What are your real feelings about him?  Was Harrenhal a cover for some greater scheme?   Were the ransoms just covers for meetings?  (I see there is a brand new tribute topic for this brilliant idea of yours!)  What else have you got up your sleeve that may throw light on the events at Harrenhal? 

It is even more interesting that rhaegar defeated not 1 but 2 people that were better than him... Did he really want to win the tournement so much that he convinced the KG to lose on purpose? why?

[divica]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm rereading the series from the top.  I was a bit surprised to hear (i listen to the books) Cat go to length at describing Luwin as a grey rat, which of course, sent my thoughts to Lady D.  You make a fine point about Lady D. not forgiving nor forgetting.  We base much of our opinion of Brandon on her recollection and assessment.   She loved him and really doesn't say he was an alley cat, only that he took her maidenhead.  I wonder if her bent against Ned doesn't have more to do with misdirection than not having her husband's bones.  As you say, she does hold a grudge and she may be completely truthful about her feelings toward Ned.  Whoa!   I don't recall Brandon having any bastards?  Where can I read this?  (It was totally time for a reread as I've forgotten so much!)  Oh my, what an interesting idea about Lady D having a bastard of her own. 

I think she doesn t have kids. If she did someone would already have said that she was trying to win the north for her kid because he is a stark bastard...

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm rereading the series from the top.  I was a bit surprised to hear (i listen to the books) Cat go to length at describing Luwin as a grey rat, which of course, sent my thoughts to Lady D.  You make a fine point about Lady D. not forgiving nor forgetting.  We base much of our opinion of Brandon on her recollection and assessment.   She loved him and really doesn't say he was an alley cat, only that he took her maidenhead.  I wonder if her bent against Ned doesn't have more to do with misdirection than not having her husband's bones.  As you say, she does hold a grudge and she may be completely truthful about her feelings toward Ned.  Whoa!   I don't recall Brandon having any bastards?  Where can I read this?  (It was totally time for a reread as I've forgotten so much!)  Oh my, what an interesting idea about Lady D having a bastard of her own. 

There is an SSM somewhere stating that Brandon probably left a few bastard Snows around the North which speaks to Brandon's character of course.  So given that Lady Barbrey is the only other woman who tells us she had relations with Brandon; the question becomes whether or not she had a son by him.  Not really so far fetched given her own accounting of him.  I doubt it was the only time.  If she tried to make a claim on Ned and he rejected her; that could explain her grudge.  She would have done what most noble ladies have done and sent her bastard off to be fostered elsewhere without any knowledge of her as his mother.  Say... a miller's wife.  Barbey is very cagey and I'm curious about her interest in Ramsey.  Just a question in my mind.

[divica]

9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There is an SSM somewhere stating that Brandon probably left a few bastard Snows around the North which speaks to Brandon's character of course.  So given that Lady Barbrey is the only other woman who tells us she had relations with Brandon; the question becomes whether or not she had a son by him.  Not really so far fetched given her own accounting of him.  I doubt it was the only time.  If she tried to make a claim on Ned and he rejected her; that could explain her grudge.  She would have done what most noble ladies have done and sent her bastard off to be fostered elsewhere without any knowledge of her as his mother.  Say... a miller's wife.  Barbey is very cagey and I'm curious about her interest in Ramsey.  Just a question in my mind.

I don t deny that it is an interesting theory. However it would mean that berbet would try to use this situation to put her bastard in charge of winterfell as the only available person with stark blood alive. It is a chance in a life time! 

And I think we have enough problems with the sucession in the north as it is...

[Curled Finger]

47 minutes ago, divica said:

It is even more interesting that rhaegar defeated not 1 but 2 people that were better than him... Did he really want to win the tournement so much that he convinced the KG to lose on purpose? why?

Another option could be akin to Jorah's big wins.   He said he was unbeatable the day he won Lyness' hand.  Rhaegar may have been super motivated rather than having his contestants throw a match.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Thanks so much.   I based my statements on Rhaegar having less experience, but I'm so obviously wrong here.  Current reread is rife with things I've misremembered or forgotten, so I am taking notes.  

It's past time to ask what your feelings about Rhaegar are now.   You've defended and pointed fingers at him.   That tells me you're open minded and willing to weigh possibility.  What are your real feelings about him?  Was Harrenhal a cover for some greater scheme?   Were the ransoms just covers for meetings?  (I see there is a brand new tribute topic for this brilliant idea of yours!)  What else have you got up your sleeve that may throw light on the events at Harrenhal? 

Rhaegar is a character I enjoy very much and he has this far reaching impact even though he's been dead for almost twenty years. I'm just going to put this under a spoiler tag because I know there are people who don't care to read what I have to say and that's totally fine.

Spoiler

 

I also tend to separate the dutiful prince from the man. The dutiful prince learned to fight because he thought he had to become a warrior. I think he understood that if they had a chance at winning against the Others, that he had to lead with a sword rather than a book. Westeros respects men who can wield a sword and calls bookish men weak. The man though preferred his harp. The prince married for duty, but it seems the man loved another. Perhaps the prince didn't have it in him to be happy, but maybe the man did. And beyond the good looks and whatever else we are told about his character, he is a very flawed individual. He had his own shortcomings. I find him very human and I can relate to the character on certain levels. 

For me, Rhaegar is one of the characters who embodies the things Maester Aemon told Jon back in AGOT, about love, duty, honor. 

More than that, the man is remembered well. Wyman Manderly's indignant words about Rhaegar Frey wearing a dragon's name or Godric Borrell less than polite answer over the same thing. There's still some respect there. I think that's important.

That said, I don't really agree that he was obsessed with prophecy or that he was trying to recreate the trio from the conquest. But this is a conversation for a different thread.

 

As far as brilliant ideas go, it takes a village.