Harrenhall Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes

[Lady Dacey]

9 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

When a jouster loses, they have to ransom their mount and armor. Brandon entered the joust against Rhaegar, and he was beaten. Unless he sent his squire, this means he had to take his ass to Rhaegar's pavilion to ransom his horse and his armor, which provided opportunity to talk at least once. And I think this may be the crux of it and the whole reason Rhaegar entered the lists in the first place since we are told it's not something he did all that often.

If he's conspiring, lords going in and out of his pavilion wouldn't be all that suspicious. If he wins, these lords have to come to him to ransom their horses, armor and he can engage with them without being called a traitor. This is his opportunity to speak to his lords since Aerys is at the tourney. We know of four people who lost against him. Brandon, a northman, Bronze Yohn, a Valeman, who is still alive and well, and two Kingsguard. I imagine there are more.

That's really interesting. I believe Bronze Yohn still has a large part to play in the books. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

12 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

That's really interesting. I believe Bronze Yohn still has a large part to play in the books. 

Same. Waymar Royce was the very first casualty in the books. I can't imagine this guy won't be there for what's coming. 

I wonder if 

Spoiler

The tourney being held in the Vale in the Alayne sample chapter won't be another opportunity for some people giving us information on Harrenhal and he is prime candidate for that.

 

[PrettyPig]

41 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

he's conspiring, lords going in and out of his pavilion wouldn't be all that suspicious. If he wins, these lords have to come to him to ransom their horses, armor and he can engage with them without being called a traitor.

Oh, nice.   I didn’t even think about the armor ransoming aspect of it.    So, how many of those that our purple-eyed maiden was noted to have danced with later lost in the joust to the dragon prince?   

Imo it’s pretty clear that Howland thought of Lyanna as a friend....and his notice of particular people at the tourney might be related to “us vs. them” —that is, who protects her and who conspired against her.

[PrettyPig]

39 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Did Brandon "server" his sister to the prince while Ned was away in the Vale? Was Rickard on board with him? The lord of Winterfell and his heir could very well be working together while the younger sons were left ignorant. The Tully wedding was just about to happen when Reaghar kidnapped/eloped with Lyanna. Maybe Rickard and Brandon hoped for a marriage, and an elopement made it impossible? Just like Viserys wanted a crown and felt eluded when Drogo decided to go to Vaes Dothrak? 

Yes, I wonder...re: Viserys stumbling into Drogo’s hall and involuntarily doing the golden bucket challenge, the point is that he didn’t care one whit about Dany or her welfare—he was just pissed that the PLANS had changed and he was being left out of the new arrangements.

[Lady Dacey]

29 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Same. Waymar Royce was the very first casualty in the books. I can't imagine this guy won't be there for what's coming. 

I wonder if 

  Reveal hidden contents

The tourney being held in the Vale in the Alayne sample chapter won't be another opportunity for some people giving us information on Harrenhal and he is prime candidate for that.

 

His character could have come from any noble house, but he's a Royce. That can't be unimportant. I agree. There's also the fact that he's got runes in his armour... that's gotta mean something, right? 

Spoiler

Oh yes! I'm really exited to see the tourney happen. Every tourney we've witnessed of heard about has been important to the plot. 

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

I agree and what Ned thinks of Brandon about him knowing what to do is vastly different from the picture that's painted for us by other characters. It's interesting that the future Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North may not have taken interesting in the plight of one of his bannermen. 

While I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said, I actually realized something with your post from last night, and that's that Rhaegar and Brandon probably might have interacted one on one during the tourney.

When a jouster loses, they have to ransom their mount and armor. Brandon entered the joust against Rhaegar, and he was beaten. Unless he sent his squire, this means he had to take his ass to Rhaegar's pavilion to ransom his horse and his armor, which provided opportunity to talk at least once. And I think this may be the crux of it and the whole reason Rhaegar entered the lists in the first place since we are told it's not something he did all that often.

If he's conspiring, lords going in and out of his pavilion wouldn't be all that suspicious. If he wins, these lords have to come to him to ransom their horses, armor and he can engage with them without being called a traitor. This is his opportunity to speak to his lords since Aerys is at the tourney. We know of four people who lost against him. Brandon, a northman, Bronze Yohn, a Valeman, who is still alive and well, and two Kingsguard. I imagine there are more.

Yes, of course!  That makes all kinds of sense.  It's would be unremarked if Rhaegar was approached by a man of the Night's Watch as well.  It may be that Yoren was there recruiting, but I wouldn't discount the possibility that Mance was there as well.  Especially since GRRM has already set us up with that possibility, revealing much later that Mance had been at Winterfell to see the king, and in passing taking note of the Stark kids and their direwolves.  I actually think that would have been of more interest to him than anything else.  

[Alexis-something-Rose]

52 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Oh, nice.   I didn’t even think about the armor ransoming aspect of it.    So, how many of those that our purple-eyed maiden was noted to have danced with later lost in the joust to the dragon prince?  

That's a good question. I think it was in the Mystery Knight that Dunc goes to bring his horse and armor because he has no coin to pay the ransom. The snail knight then proceeds to tell him all sorts of things, like how he was paid to kill Dunc, IIRC, and reveals bits and pieces of what's going on at Whitewalls.

My first instinct is to say that Rhaegar did not need to speak to any of the men Ashara danced with, especially if she was being used as a go in between, passing information along. The order we are given of who she danced with was the White Sword, whom I'm assuming is Arthur, then Oberyn and after him Jon Conn. So let's say Arthur gives her the information, she talks to Oberyn right after, and then she dances with Jon Conn and tells him what Oberyn said. 

Ned comes last, but only after Brandon puts her up to it. So I have to wonder if this goes beyond the things that have been discussed, that Brandon was trying to impress Ashara and getting in her pants. That may have been just a very small part of it. 

Even the drinking with Robert and Richard Lonmouth. Those two seem to have spent some time together during the tourney. They're engaged in their wine-cup war at the opening feast and seem to be together when Robert proclaims that he will challenge the KotLT. Maybe that's where things derail with Robert.

I wonder if this isn't the tourney Willas Tyrell was crippled. If that's the case, then this incident would have messed things up even further.

 

[PrettyPig]

2 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

The order we are given of who she danced with was the White Sword, whom I'm assuming is Arthur, then Oberyn and after him Jon Conn. So let's say Arthur gives her the information, she talks to Oberyn right after, and then she dances with Jon Conn and tells him what Oberyn said. 

My other thought is that Ashara was being used not to pass information necessarily, but instructions - like basically telling them to throw the joust.  Barristan expresses his regret about not winning the tourney, "If I had been a better knight" and all that...I know some folks have interpreted that as his deliberately losing to Rhaegar instead of defeating him honorably the way he should have as a knight of the KG.   Could the White Sword have been Barristan himself?   Obviously we don't get mention of his dancing with Ashara in his POV, but that could be GRRM holding back on the pertinent details as he is wont to do.     If Barristan was instructed to lose by Rhaegar's order but didn't know WHY (because he was left out of the planning, something he DOES mention in his POV), that could be a source of his bitterness as well.  

Just spitballing, obv.  For the record, I also don't think Rhaegar was the great dude that everyone believes him to be either, so IMO a fixed match would be right up his alley.

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

 

Ned comes last, but only after Brandon puts her up to it. So I have to wonder if this goes beyond the things that have been discussed, that Brandon was trying to impress Ashara and getting in her pants. That may have been just a very small part of it. 

 

According to Lady Dustin, Brandon did not want to marry Catelyn and Brandon wouldn't marry her because her house was beneath him.  So I wonder if Brandon set his sights on Ashera and Ned was meant to speak to her on his behalf.   

[LynnS]

34 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

If Barristan was instructed to lose by Rhaegar's order but didn't know WHY (because he was left out of the planning, something he DOES mention in his POV), that could be a source of his bitterness as well.  

This would make sense since Barristan says that Rhaegar didn't trust him and Harrenhal was the proof of that.  This might speak to the SSM where Martin says that the KG would be bound to follow Rhaegar's orders.

[PrettyPig]

9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

According to Lady Dustin, Brandon did not want to marry Catelyn and Brandon wouldn't marry her because her house was beneath him.  So I wonder if Brandon set his sights on Ashera and Ned was meant to speak to her on his behalf.

He may have had higher ambitions than that.  Per Ned, Brandon was meant to be Hand to kings and father of Queens.   There are only a couple of ways to accomplish this in terms of marriage alliances.

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

He may have had higher ambitions than that.  Per Ned, Brandon was meant to be Hand to kings and father of Queens.   There are only a couple of ways to accomplish this in terms of marriage alliances.

Interesting.  So then the crown of roses is a repudiation of that ambition; Lyanna disappears and Brandon immediately suspects Rhaegar,  he doesn't ask for his sister back, as though he has been betrayed on the matter of his sister.  Why does Hoster call him a gallant fool?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

"If you say so. You and he were to wed."

"He was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon.

What did Hoster Tully know about it?  Catelyn's throat growing tight is an interesting detail.

[PrettyPig]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Interesting.  So then the crown of roses is a repudiation of that ambition; Lyanna disappears and Brandon immediately suspects Rhaegar,  he doesn't ask for his sister back, as though he has been betrayed on the matter of his sister.  Why does Hoster call him a gallant fool?

What did Hoster Tully know about it?  Catelyn's throat growing tight is an interesting detail.

Bingo.   We need to look at Hoster Tully’s ambitions too,methinks.

[LynnS]

36 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Bingo.   We need to look at Hoster Tully’s ambitions too,methinks.

Not to mention the crown of roses itself.  Winter roses grown in the glass house at Winterfell.  Brandon must have brought them with a specific purpose in mind.  Assuming the Whents had their own crown to offer.

[PrettyPig]

20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Not to mention the crown of roses itself.  Winter roses grown in the glass house at Winterfell.  Brandon must have brought them with a specific purpose in mind.  Assuming the Whents had their own crown to offer.

So are you thinking that Brandon’s outrage at the tourney when Lyanna was given the crown was fake?   A ginned-up response to deflect attention?  

If Brandon was somehow involved with Lyanna’s disappearance and later death, that certainly gives weight to Meera’s statement about the wolf maid crowned QoLAB being “a sadder story “.

[Lady Dacey]

30 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Not to mention the crown of roses itself.  Winter roses grown in the glass house at Winterfell.  Brandon must have brought them with a specific purpose in mind.  Assuming the Whents had their own crown to offer.

Do they only grow in Winterfell though? It was the year of the false spring. Winter roses are of renowned beauty. I was under the impression there was only one crown in each tournament, provided by the hosting house - that would have been Lyanna's crown. 

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

Bingo.   We need to look at Hoster Tully’s ambitions too,methinks.

Oh and we have been! We have very little information, but a few pages ago we were talking about the Tully's conspicuous absence in the tourney and what that could mean... while the Vale was there, LCM doesn't take notice of Arryn or any of his bannermen 

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

So are you thinking that Brandon’s outrage at the tourney when Lyanna was given the crown was fake?   A ginned-up response to deflect attention?  

If Brandon was somehow involved with Lyanna’s disappearance and later death, that certainly gives weight to Meera’s statement about the wolf maid crowned QoLAB being “a sadder story “.

Wouldn't the Whents have had their own crown on offer?  Would it have been made of winter roses?  Perhaps these were the only roses available during the false spring.  Did they come from Winterfell with Brandon or does everybody grow them?

[AlaskanSandman]

Just now, LynnS said:

 

Should check out these two threads and let me know what you think. Could have huge implications on what Rhaegar was up to at Harrenhal

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150006-bael-queen-alyssaneprincess-gael/

Then consider the one you already responded in

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150026-jon-mance’s-blue-rose-and-the-dayne-heiress/

Did Bael take both the daughter of the North (Stark) and Alysanne (south)? 

As Aegon had Rhaenys and Visenya?

Did Mance take Lyanna and Ashara Dayne? and if so? Where was Rhaegar who was obsessed with prophecy?

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Should check out these two threads and let me know what you think. Could have huge implications on what Rhaegar was up to at Harrenhal

 

I'll be going out for a while and will check in later.