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Hiigara129

Would Rhaenyra's Velaryon sons rule as Targaryens or Velaryons?

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I hope the title makes sense. Let's say one of Rhaenyra Targaryen's Velaryon sons survives the Dance and becomes King. Would he rule as a Targaryen or a Velaryon? As far as I can tell this never came up in any of the sources. On the one hand they were born Velaryons and logic would dictate they would reign as Velaryons; but on the other hand it would mean the end of the Targaryens as the ruling house, something that's likely to cause concern at court and among the Lords of the Realm. Plus there is an example of the ruling House name passing through the female line in House Martell. So would anyone care to speculate?

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It is difficult to say. The fact that they all were raised bearing the Velaryon name makes it very likely that this would have been the name they would have kept. It wasn't exactly a humble or problematic name. And we have to keep in mind that one of them was supposed to inherit Driftmark from Corlys. For that, the Velaryon name was not unimportant...

And they were all dragonriders, anyway. They did not need the Targaryen name. Laenor Velaryon was also considered for the Iron Throne as a Velaryon, not a Targaryen, so this wasn't a problem.

Whether they would have wanted to keep the Velaryon name is another matter. As kings they could have decided themselves what name they would use.

One should also keep in mind that Viserys I had just been the fifth king on the Iron Throne. House Targaryen wasn't exactly established as this century-old royal dynasty of the Seven Kingdoms. The royal name could presumably still change rather easily.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is difficult to say. The fact that they all were raised bearing the Velaryon name makes it very likely that this would have been the name they would have kept. It wasn't exactly a humble or problematic name. And we have to keep in mind that one of them was supposed to inherit Driftmark from Corlys. For that, the Velaryon name was not unimportant...

And they were all dragonriders, anyway. They did not need the Targaryen name. Laenor Velaryon was also considered for the Iron Throne as a Velaryon, not a Targaryen, so this wasn't a problem.

Whether they would have wanted to keep the Velaryon name is another matter. As kings they could have decided themselves what name they would use.

One should also keep in mind that Viserys I had just been the fifth king on the Iron Throne. House Targaryen wasn't exactly established as this century-old royal dynasty of the Seven Kingdoms. The royal name could presumably still change rather easily.

You could be right. Of course it was the Targaryens who conquered the Seven Kingdoms and united most of Westeros, so the name could be important in this scenario. Plus the dynasty was over a century old at Viserys I's death, so not exactly young, though in comparison to the old dynasties that's basically an infant. It's not really important but it would be nice of Fire and Blood mentions what Viserys meant to do about the incoming dynasty change.

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6 minutes ago, Hiigara129 said:

You could be right. Of course it was the Targaryens who conquered the Seven Kingdoms and united most of Westeros, so the name could be important in this scenario. Plus the dynasty was over a century old at Viserys I's death, so not exactly young, though in comparison to the old dynasties that's basically an infant. It's not really important but it would be nice of Fire and Blood mentions what Viserys meant to do about the incoming dynasty change.

That decision would have fallen to Queen Rhaenyra or King Jacaerys, or whoever else would have been the son to inherit the throne from her. Just as Jaehaerys I wouldn't have decided how a King Laenor would have called himself or his children.

In light of the fame and wealth of Corlys Velaryon changing the name doesn't really sound to be all that necessary. Both Laenor and Rhaenyra's sons would have been proud to be (grand)children of the famous Sea Snake.

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On 1/17/2018 at 2:46 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Maybe Velaryon-Targaryen, similar to how Mountbatten-Windsor is used today?

There doesn't seem to be any precedence for hyphenated surnames in Westeros (correct me if I'm wrong), but still, a possibility.

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I kind of get a kick when I read the Targaryen short stories, because Martin likes to pepper the Targ family tree with instances where bullets are dodged for messing up the continuity of the Targ dynasty. He set up those three sons who were obviously bastards to mirror Cersei's three children, with the danger of losing the Targaryen name if any of them made it to the throne. Conveniently Martin killed them all off in the story so it wouldn't happen. It's also why I have trouble buying into tinfoil hat theories about any past Targ legitimacy that would indirectly lead to Dany or Jon NOT being a direct descendant of Aegon I.

 

Anyhoo, bullet dodged on the Velaryon thing, because they surely would have lead to a new house of Velaryon on the throne.

Edited by Big Daddy

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48 minutes ago, Big Daddy said:

I kind of get a kick when I read the Targaryen short stories, because Martin likes to pepper the Targ family tree with instances where bullets are dodged for messing up the continuity of the Targ dynasty. He set up those three sons who were obviously bastards to mirror Cersei's three children, with the danger of losing the Targaryen name if any of them made it to the throne. Conveniently Martin killed them all off in the story so it wouldn't happen. It's also why I have trouble buying into tinfoil hat theories about any past Targ legitimacy that would indirectly lead to Dany or Jon NOT being a direct descendant of Aegon I.

 

Anyhoo, bullet dodged on the Velaryon thing, because they surely would have lead to a new house of Velaryon on the throne.

It’s different to the situation with Cersei though. The Velaryon children are speculated to have a different father yes, but their claim to the throne stems primarily from Rhaenyra in any case, whereas Cersei’s children would be Lannisters pressing a Baratheon claim. It would be more comparable when talking of their claim to Driftmark though.

Edited by HelenaExMachina

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27 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

It’s different to the situation with Cersei though. The Velaryon children are speculated to have a different father yes, but their claim to the throne stems primarily from Rhaenyra in any case, whereas Cersei’s children would be Lannisters pressing a Baratheon claim. It would be more comparable when talking of their claim to Driftmark though.

That's definitely true. They had the added wrinkle of not carrying the Targaryen name in addition to probably not being fathered by Velaryon. That made it even more interesting to me on my initial reading of that story.

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At one point, Jacaerys Velaryon refers to himself and his brothers as 'true Targaryens', so there as a hint that they saw themselves as Targaryens rather than Velaryons, at least privately. Whether that would have led to Jace or Joffrey taking the Targaryen name had they become kings, is still difficult to determine.

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Quote

It’s different to the situation with Cersei though. The Velaryon children are speculated to have a different father yes, but their claim to the throne stems primarily from Rhaenyra in any case, whereas Cersei’s children would be Lannisters pressing a Baratheon claim. It would be more comparable when talking of their claim to Driftmark though.

 

As annoying as it would’ve been for the Velaryons if Lucerys had gone on to rule Driftmark, he still had Velaryon blood through Alyssa Velaryon (who both of Rhaenyra’s parents are descended from) and he was betrothed to marry Rhaena Targaryen, who was the daughter of Laena Velaryon and the granddaughter of Lord Corlys, so from Corlys to Laena to Rhaena to her children the Velaryon line would descend legitimately, even if not the right way. It isn’t as extreme a scenario as Cersei’s children, who as far as we are aware have no, or at least very little, Baratheon and Targaryen ancestry.

16 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

There is at least House Nymeros Martell.

Ah, good point. 

Just a little question, Joffrey was hailed as being of the Houses Baratheon and Lannister - were kings always hailed as being from both their parents houses? It seems that consorts in Westeros don’t take the royal name, so would Jaehaerys II have been hailed as of the Houses Targaryen and Blackwood, Aegon V as of the Houses of Targaryen and Dayne, etc.?

Edited by Jaehaerys Tyrell
Quoted the wrong post

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2 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

 

 

As annoying as it would’ve been for the Velaryons if Lucerys had gone on to rule Driftmark, he still had Velaryon blood through Alyssa Velaryon (who both of Rhaenyra’s parents are descended from) and he was betrothed to marry Rhaena Targaryen, who was the daughter of Laena Velaryon and the granddaughter of Lord Corlys, so from Corlys to Laena to Rhaena to her children the Velaryon line would descend legitimately, even if not the right way. It isn’t as extreme a scenario as Cersei’s children, who as far as we are aware have no, or at least very little, Baratheon and Targaryen ancestry.

Ah, good point. 

Just a little question, Joffrey was hailed as being of the Houses Baratheon and Lannister - were kings always hailed as being from both their parents houses? It seems that consorts in Westeros don’t take the royal name, so would Jaehaerys II have been hailed as of the Houses Targaryen and Blackwood, Aegon V as of the Houses of Targaryen and Dayne, etc.?

Yes, I agree regarding the Driftmark succession. I think the betrothal to Rhaena was likely part of  some agreement between Corlys and Rhaenyra to retain the Velaryon blood claim to Driftmark

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2 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

As annoying as it would’ve been for the Velaryons if Lucerys had gone on to rule Driftmark, he still had Velaryon blood through Alyssa Velaryon (who both of Rhaenyra’s parents are descended from) and he was betrothed to marry Rhaena Targaryen, who was the daughter of Laena Velaryon and the granddaughter of Lord Corlys, so from Corlys to Laena to Rhaena to her children the Velaryon line would descend legitimately, even if not the right way. It isn’t as extreme a scenario as Cersei’s children, who as far as we are aware have no, or at least very little, Baratheon and Targaryen ancestry.

I actually never consciously thought about Rhaenyra's own Velaryon ancestry. It was a little bit down the road but not that far.

It is quite obvious that Corlys and Rhaenys saw Rhaenyra's sons as their grandchildren - they either knew or suspected that their son had refused to father any children on his wife, but they - and Rhaenyra and Laenor - knew she would have to have children. The idea that these two were all that much obsessed with demanding trueborn grandchildren from their homosexual son isn't all that convincing. Especially in light that Laenor seems to have been the most open male homosexual in Westerosi history we know so far - we don't know much about Egg's Daeron as of yet.

In that sense, Vaemond Velaryon was clearly trying to make a power grab here, against the will of Corlys and Rhaenys - who both apparently did not object or allow the treatment Rhaenyra and Daemon gave Vaemond to interfere with the loyalty they showed to Rhaenyra shortly afterwards when her father died.

And, of course, the Jace-Baela and Luke-Rhaena matches were most definitely made to strengthen the ties between Rhaenyra and the Velaryons.

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On 1/22/2018 at 7:37 AM, Lord Varys said:

I actually never consciously thought about Rhaenyra's own Velaryon ancestry. It was a little bit down the road but not that far.

It is quite obvious that Corlys and Rhaenys saw Rhaenyra's sons as their grandchildren - they either knew or suspected that their son had refused to father any children on his wife, but they - and Rhaenyra and Laenor - knew she would have to have children. The idea that these two were all that much obsessed with demanding trueborn grandchildren from their homosexual son isn't all that convincing. Especially in light that Laenor seems to have been the most open male homosexual in Westerosi history we know so far - we don't know much about Egg's Daeron as of yet.

In that sense, Vaemond Velaryon was clearly trying to make a power grab here, against the will of Corlys and Rhaenys - who both apparently did not object or allow the treatment Rhaenyra and Daemon gave Vaemond to interfere with the loyalty they showed to Rhaenyra shortly afterwards when her father died.

And, of course, the Jace-Baela and Luke-Rhaena matches were most definitely made to strengthen the ties between Rhaenyra and the Velaryons.

Did she need to put all her eggs in one basket?

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I wonder if the Jace-Baela and Luke-Rhaena betrothals were some kind of quid pro quo between Rhaenyra and Corlys that allows the latter's name AND blood to remain in control of Driftmark; after all Corlys isn't stupid, he was no doubt well aware that Rhaenyra's sons weren't his biological grandsons.

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1 hour ago, Hiigara129 said:

I wonder if the Jace-Baela and Luke-Rhaena betrothals were some kind of quid pro quo between Rhaenyra and Corlys that allows the latter's name AND blood to remain in control of Driftmark; after all Corlys isn't stupid, he was no doubt well aware that Rhaenyra's sons weren't his biological grandsons.

Sure, but there is also no indication that Corlys/Rhaenys ever faulted Rhaenyra for (possibly) using Harwin Strong as a sperm-donor. After all, they knew their son Laenor likely much better than everybody else, and Laenor may have made it perfectly clear to anyone involved - his parents and Rhaenyra - that he would never consummate this marriage, and the whole thing would never be anything but a scam.

If that was the case, then Jace, Luke, and Joff were the only grandchildren 'from Laenor' Corlys and Rhaenys could ever hope for. And they may have accepted that long before Viserys I approached them with the offer of marrying Rhaenyra to Laenor.

The guy to blame for this whole predicament is Laenor Velaryon, not Rhaenyra.

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but there is also no indication that Corlys/Rhaenys ever faulted Rhaenyra for (possibly) using Harwin Strong as a sperm-donor. After all, they knew their son Laenor likely much better than everybody else, and Laenor may have made it perfectly clear to anyone involved - his parents and Rhaenyra - that he would never consummate this marriage, and the whole thing would never be anything but a scam.

If that was the case, then Jace, Luke, and Joff were the only grandchildren 'from Laenor' Corlys and Rhaenys could ever hope for. And they may have accepted that long before Viserys I approached them with the offer of marrying Rhaenyra to Laenor.

The guy to blame for this whole predicament is Laenor Velaryon, not Rhaenyra.

I agree with you for the most part. But i think Corlys and Rhaenys could both not blame Rhaenyra for the situation/be on board with Harwin the sperm donor, but still want their actual flesh and blood to inherit Driftmark, hence the betrothal.

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On 1/25/2018 at 2:35 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Did she need to put all her eggs in one basket?

No, she didn't, and it came to bite her.

On 1/28/2018 at 10:18 AM, Hiigara129 said:

after all Corlys isn't stupid, he was no doubt well aware that Rhaenyra's sons weren't his biological grandsons.

Eh, sometimes people just engage reality filter when accepting reality is detrimental to their goals and/or standing, like Tywin does.

Such attitude would not be without a precedent for Corlys: Daemon Targaryen was the man with means, motive and opportunity to have their son Laenor murdered - and was doubtlessly the chief beneficiary of that murder. Yet there isn't even the hint or a suggestion that Corlys (or Rhaenys) ever took this into consideration.

Or to take another case, Corlys was Rhaenyra's ally and vassal for more than a decade; he was there to witness what kind of animal he was putting on the Iron Throne. When a lady demands a child to be subjected to enhanced interrogation "sharp questioning" or has a nobleman (his own nephew, no less) murdered without a trial for saying an obvious truth... could her later command to murder his  grandson, a boy who showed her nothing but loyalty and bravery, be all that surprising? It is the nature of life that no matter how valuable and influential courtier Corlys was under Rhaenyra, one day there would be some severe disagreement between them over one thing or another. It was the nature of Rhaenyra that she would not respond to such disagreement with considerate approach.

I would not insist on one interpretation or another - Corlys could throw his son, his wife, his nephews and other family members under the bus just because he was a cold-hearted, calculating courtier out for power and influence. It could all be acceptable losses for him. But he could be Tywin-esque figure shaped just as much by his pride and ego as his lust for power. Both interpretations can work in the framework of the facts provided by canon.

Edited by Myrish Lace

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On 28.1.2018 at 11:32 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

I agree with you for the most part. But i think Corlys and Rhaenys could both not blame Rhaenyra for the situation/be on board with Harwin the sperm donor, but still want their actual flesh and blood to inherit Driftmark, hence the betrothal.

The more crucial factor might have been the Jacaerys-Baela betrothal, resulting in Rhaenys' great-grandchild sitting the Iron Throne one day. That is much more important than Driftmark.

Rhaenyra apparently didn't care all that much about Rhaenys/Corlys when arranging those matches, though. She cared about Laena and Daemon, who became her best buddies after their return from Pentos.

While Laenor and Laena were still alive, the succession of Driftmark seems to have been a non-issue. Laenor was Corlys' unquestioned heir, and had Laenor lived to claim Driftmark one of his sons would have succeeded him, no questions asked. He and Queen Rhaenyra would have seen to that. Nobody would have dared question the legitimacy of Laenor's children while their father was still alive. Once Laenor was dead, rumors could blossom, just as the vile rumors about Aemon-Naerys only really blossomed after both of them were dead, etc.

On 29.1.2018 at 10:54 PM, Myrish Lace said:

Such attitude would not be without a precedent for Corlys: Daemon Targaryen was the man with means, motive and opportunity to have their son Laenor murdered - and was doubtlessly the chief beneficiary of that murder. Yet there isn't even the hint or a suggestion that Corlys (or Rhaenys) ever took this into consideration.

That fact makes it rather unlikely that these two had reason to believe Daemon was involved in the affair. The richest man in Westeros should have the means to uncover such things, and the fiery Queen That Never Was likely would have torched Daemon if she had had any suspicion that her son-in-law had been involved in the murder of her son.

If we look at the series in general then people who profit from a given situation are not necessarily the ones causing it - never mind that it looks that way. Stannis profited from the murders of Robert and Joffrey both, yet he wasn't behind that. History is not going to remember Lancel Lannister or Olenna Tyrell as the people involved in those murders unless crucial people end up talking to historians. Cersei profited from the murder of Jon Arryn - and his wife effectively accused her of murdering him -, yet nobody is going to remember the true murderer, Lysa Arryn, unless Littlefinger or Sansa care to enlighten some historians about what actually transpired.

The idea that Gyldayn or Yandel can paint a complete picture of historical events with the limited sources they have is simply not very likely. Especially where conspiracies and plots are concerned. The people really responsible for certain events may not even have been important enough - from the point of view of a historian - to be mentioned when retelling those events.

Edited by Lord Varys

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