Heresy 204; of cabbages, prophecies and kings

[LynnS]

10 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

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Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his LadyLyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled."

Here we have an internal monlogue and no detail.Infact, it is just another tale for Selmy among the community board of Westros.Its nothing he has personal details on.I look at the quality of info,how he's telling it.The intimacy of it and its just something else.

it speaks to the belief in story that the war was only a matter between Rhaegar and Robert over Lyanna:

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

"When I died in the Battle of the Trident. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river. The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one.

Lords picked who they supported for reasons other than "Rhaegar loved Lyanna" and went to war over it.  I think there is some truth that Robert made it a reason to go to war but that's not the whole picture. 

Kevan Lannister gives a different motivation:

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A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs. Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she'd flowered, ahhhh … had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.

But it did no good to brood on lost battles and roads not taken. That was a vice of old done men. Rhaegar had wed Elia of Dorne, Lyanna Stark had died, Robert Baratheon had taken Cersei to bride, and here they were. And tonight his own road would take him to his niece's chambers and face-to-face with Cersei.

Kevan does say that Rhaegar held a torch for Lyanna but I think he makes the same mistake as Barristan.     

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

My completely manufactured and unsupported tinfoil says that Tywin had left Casterly Rock with his army quite some time before, and were hiding out inside the walls of Harrenhal courtesy of House Whent (or maybe not at their courtesy, given that extant members of House Whent save for Lady Shella nearabout vanished after the Rebellion).
 

 

Aerys sent word to Tywin at the Rock, but no answer came.   My guess is that Tywin wasn't there to give one - he was already parked at Harrenhal, lying in wait as lions do.

Ooh! I like this idea very much, and it appears to be a repeat. I wonder how long Tywin was there? Perhaps reexamining the War of the Five Kings would unearth some clues? Are you examining this line of thought as well?

The tourney that Robert threw for Ned when he became King is a repeat of the Tourney of Harrenhal. Ned's beheading is a repeat of the deaths of Brandon and Rickard. During the early stages of the W5K Lady Whent yields Harrenhal to Lord Tywin, whose own troops hold the castle. Could this also be a repeat in the early stages of Robert's Rebellion?

Cersei grants the castle to Janos Slynt in return for his service for deceiving Ned. Slynt's deception was bought with coin from Petyr Baelish. I wonder who Janos Slynt and the City Guard are repeating, and who was the Master of Coin during King Aerys time?

Tyrion, as acting Hand, revokes Slynt's title and sends him to the Wall. Tywin's men still hold Harrenhal with Armory Lorch in charge, bolstered by Ser Gregor Clegane and his Brave Companions, who have been raiding the Riverlands. When Lyanna was abducted, similar to when Arya was abducted, was Tywin already at Harrenhal?

Expanding on the above - the W5K does seem to be a repeat of the northern alliance that rose up against Aerys. Jon Arryn, Rickard Stark, Steffon Baratheon, and Hoster Tully versus the four Kings that rose up against Joffrey: Renly Baratheon, Robb Stark, Stannis Baratheon, and Balon Greyjoy. The Northern Alliance joined forces while the four rebellious kings fought their own wars. Tywin was Hand both times. Since he was forced to support his grandson, Joffrey during the W5K - the mirrored inversion points to Tywin being against Aerys during the Rebellion. I wonder if Tywin felt the deja vu? I like your analog to a lion waiting to ambush, but for me there's no question as to who's side he was on.

[PrettyPig]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Could this also be a repeat in the early stages of Robert's Rebellion?

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

When Lyanna was abducted, similar to when Arya was abducted, was Tywin already at Harrenhal?

IMO it would have been nearer the end of the Rebellion, not the beginning - and brought on/ supported by that double-cross I mentioned earlier.     

Now I think it’s entirely possible that Lyanna spent some time at harrenhal due to various alliances in play (see again:  House Whent), but I don’t think She was there for the majority of the war, nor do I think Tywin took the castle that early, especially pertaining to her/ her disappearance.

Whent in particular needs closer scrutiny, followed by Hightower.   It isn’t coincidence that Ned’s fever dream has Ser Oswell sporting a black bat on his helm... BAT singular, as in the single bat of House Lothston.  There is dark magic in play here.  ETA:  dark magic that is running concurrently with all the political machinations that Tywin would have been orchestrating.  Two separate plots/battles, just as we see in current time with Wot5K vs.  the war forming in the far north.

 

eta again:  and on that note, if you want to look at parallels between these two events, slot Rhaegar into Stannis and see what falls out.   

[LynnS]

33 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Whent in particular needs closer scrutiny, followed by Hightower.  

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It isn’t coincidence that Ned’s fever dream has Ser Oswell sporting a black bat on his helm

... BAT singular, as in the single bat of House Lothston.  

Oh shoot!  The whitecloaks don't sport any sigils but the white shield. That escaped me entirely.

[PrettyPig]

14 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Did Rheagar not do his due diligence because the two had been in regular contact, and he expected Tywin to march on the Trident?

In reference to my comment above about Stannis being the echo of Rhaegar, I believe the above may be exactly right, just inverted.   Stannis lay siege at the Blackwater, powered by trusted men, pirates, and prophecy - and he was winning...until he wasn't.   That "wasn't" just happened to be when Tywin's troops unexpectedly appeared from the ether and turned the tides of the battle against him.     

*If* Tywin was hanging out at Harrenhal prior to the battle at the Trident, and Rhaegar knew this and marched to the battle under the impression that Tywin's troops would materialize as planned to turn the tides in his FAVOR... then yes.  Rhaegar was confident about returning from the Trident and calling his council because he thought he had a lion in his pocket waiting to ambush the rebel forces.   However, the sleeping lion kept on sleeping, and Rhaegar died.

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

In reference to my comment above about Stannis being the echo of Rhaegar, I believe the above may be exactly right, just inverted.   Stannis lay siege at the Blackwater, powered by trusted men, pirates, and prophecy - and he was winning...until he wasn't.   That "wasn't" just happened to be when Tywin's troops unexpectedly appeared from the ether and turned the tides of the battle against him.     

*If* Tywin was hanging out at Harrenhal prior to the battle at the Trident, and Rhaegar knew this and marched to the battle under the impression that Tywin's troops would materialize as planned to turn the tides in his FAVOR... then yes.  Rhaegar was confident about returning from the Trident and calling his council because he thought he had a lion in his pocket waiting to ambush the rebel forces.   However, the sleeping lion kept on sleeping, and Rhaegar died.

This makes a lot of sense, however since the sequence of events seem to be the same, i.e. tourney, execution, then war - I think prior to the Rebellion when Tywin left KL to go home, he went to Harrenhal instead and called his banners from there - either that or first went to Casterly Rock and then to Harrenhal. Like you say, it may have been a plan from the beginning that Rhaegar knew about, or thought he knew.

I believe GRRM once stated that everything about the Rebellion can be gleaned from GOT. It can. It's completely described leading into the W5K.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

In reference to my comment above about Stannis being the echo of Rhaegar, I believe the above may be exactly right, just inverted.   Stannis lay siege at the Blackwater, powered by trusted men, pirates, and prophecy - and he was winning...until he wasn't.   That "wasn't" just happened to be when Tywin's troops unexpectedly appeared from the ether and turned the tides of the battle against him.     

 

I think the four kings mirror the four allies:

Renly is Jon Arryn's force backing Robert. It’s more likely Renly’s “ghost” is mirroring Rhaegar. Who wore Renly’s armor at Blackwater?

Robb is Rickard Stark, then Ned

Stannis is Steffon Baratheon, and his defeat at the Blackwater mirror's his parent's death in Shipwrecker Bay, then he's himself left to hold the home seat at Storm's End.

Balon is Hoster Tully

[Matthew.]

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

more pertinently why should we attach any real significance to it?

Its pretty obvious Baristan is talking cautiously because he knows the stories, but doesn't actually know himself what may or may not have been going on. 

Because I think there's a significance to what people believe beyond whether or not the belief is true--how they came by their beliefs in the first place may be relevant, depending on the character in question. To reiterate, Barristan's view of Rhaegar's actions are not identical to Cersei's, because Barristan was in Rhaegar's death march. Now, he may have simply absorbed what was in the zeitgeist at a later date, but it's also possible that those stories were already going around amongst Rhaegar's Trident army, or that Rhaegar had commented on certain things himself.

I find the latter two noteworthy not just in the context of "maybe the stories were true," but in the context that Rhaegar may have viewed the stories as a convenient red herring, because having people believe those rumors was less damaging than having people dig into what he was really doing during his absence.

At the least, if he was conspiring against Aerys, then it is definitely useful to have his army (which is essentially Aerys' army) believe a more innocuous story--then there's the added layer that there may have been a conspiracy to protect Aegon VI, whom Rhaegar at one point believed to be TPtwP, and whose life Rhaegar would presumably value above his own. And, more tinfoily, he may have been up to 'dragon hatching business.'

In short, just because Barristan might have believed a lie, that doesn't make his POV irrelevant; if he believed a lie that Rhaegar told him, that is potentially very important.

I also view all of this in light of this SSM:
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040/

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As to your speculations about Catelyn and Ashara Dayne... sigh... needless to say, All Will Be Revealed in Good Time. I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar.

Ashara has connections to Elia and Rhaegar, potential 'access' to Aegon VI, and GRRM is all but clubbing us over the head with "she was not nailed to the floor in Starfall." 

 

[Matthew.]

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its pretty obvious Baristan is talking cautiously because he knows the stories, but doesn't actually know himself what may or may not have been going on. 

As just one more addition, there's an (IMO) erroneous suggestion that Barristan's lack of expressed knowledge is an indication of the extent or source of his knowledge; "he has given only broad strokes, so he only knows the broad strokes, and he only knows the broad strokes because he's heard the same rumors as everyone else."

I find this flawed on two fronts. First, it is possible for Rhaegar himself to have commented on the stories going around, given certain broad comments (eg, "yes, I really did abduct Lyanna Stark") without giving a blow-by-blow account of where he was, where she was being held, her current status, etc.

Second, Eddard is a perfect example of a POV that knows a great deal of things upon which he does not elaborate--he thinks of Rhaegar in only the most vague and broad terms, not because he "doesn't know what was going on," but because the author is conveniently obscuring information by not having Eddard 'ponder further.' This is another thing where I think "wait and see" applies, and we may get more details from Barristan about Rhaegar's final days.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

I think the four kings mirror the four allies:

Renly is Jon Arryn's force backing Robert. It’s more likely Renly’s “ghost” is mirroring Rhaegar. Who wore Renly’s armor at Blackwater?

Robb is Rickard Stark, then Ned

Stannis is Steffon Baratheon, and his defeat at the Blackwater mirror's his parent's death in Shipwrecker Bay, then he's himself left to hold the home seat at Storm's End.

Balon is Hoster Tully

 

Sir Garlan Tyrell, also known as Garlan The Gallant, wore Renly Baratheon's armor to the Blackwater. He also slew Ser Guyard Morrigen, who led Stannis Baratheon's vanguard. I remember reading someone's theory about "the Huntsman", which I believe was referring to Randyll Tarly. - Pretty Pig, if there was a double-cross going on - these are the people in on it. When Rhaegar left Kings Landing to go to the Trident - I wonder if he never even made it there and someone else was in that armor? 

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh shoot!  The whitecloaks don't sport any sigils but the white shield. That escaped me entirely.

And just as an aside, remember that the Mad Mouse [secretly] belongs to House Lothstone.

[PrettyPig]

22 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

Sir Garlan Tyrell, also known as Garlan The Gallant, wore Renly Baratheon's armor to the Blackwater. He also slew Ser Guyard Morrigen, who led Stannis Baratheon's vanguard. I remember reading someone's theory about "the Huntsman", which I believe was referring to Randyll Tarly. - Pretty Pig, if there was a double-cross going on - these are the people in on it. When Rhaegar left Kings Landing to go to the Trident - I wonder if he never even made it there and someone else was in that armor? 

That seems a bit too specific.   IMO you could just as well say that Mace Tyrell’s forces were wearing the armor of the wannabe/rightful king/little brother, i.e. supporting Viserys,the “new heir” of Aerys, vis s vis Aerys himself.

 In reality though, that support may have been all for show meant to boost morale for those fighting for a king whose rule was not to be, a king who was, politically speaking, dead.   The Tyrell forces laid siege to Storms End but sort of passively sat there not doing much...again, a “show” of support but not much else.   Ned lifted the siege almost immediately and with no bloodshed, which tells me that the Tyrells weren’t all that committed to their now actually dead king or the “little brother”.   They were wearing false armor, in a sense.

Randyll Tarly was part of that too, although I’m still waiting on confirmation that he was actually involved in the siege - or any battles at all after his victory at Ashford, really.   I don’t think he was, but...that’s just me.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

That seems a bit too specific.   IMO you could just as well say that Mace Tyrell’s forces were wearing the armor of the wannabe/rightful king/little brother, i.e. supporting Viserys,the “new heir” of Aerys, vis s vis Aerys himself.

 In reality though, that support may have been all for show meant to boost morale for those fighting for a king whose rule was not to be, a king who was, politically speaking, dead.   The Tyrell forces laid siege to Storms End but sort of passively sat there not doing much...again, a “show” of support but not much else.   Ned lifted the siege almost immediately and with no bloodshed, which tells me that the Tyrells weren’t all that committed to their now actually dead king or the “little brother”.   They were wearing false armor, in a sense.

Randyll Tarly was part of that too, although I’m still waiting on confirmation that he was actually involved in the siege - or any battles at all after his victory at Ashford, really.   I don’t think he was, but...that’s just me.

Yes, I agree everything you've said about the Tyrells and being all for show. I was just pointing out the parallels I'm picking up on between Rhaegar and Renly's ghost. The main thing is Renly was killed by a shadow of Stannis after a parley.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

And just as an aside, remember that the Mad Mouse [secretly] belongs to House Lothstone.

Brienne is accused of bearing a liar's shield:

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

"The likes of me?" Brienne was uncertain what he meant.

Ser Illifer crooked a bony finger at her shield. Though its paint was cracked and peeling, the device it bore showed plain: a black bat on a field divided bendwise, silver and gold. "You bear a liar's shield, to which you have no right. My grandfather's grandfather helped kill the last o' Lothston. None since has dared to show that bat, black as the deeds of them that bore it."

Edit:  Once again, I wonder if Lyanna was poisoned and who gave her the rose.

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A Storm of Swords - Tyrion X

"We are fond of spears in Dorne. Besides, it is the only way to counter his reach. Have a look, Lord Imp, but see you do not touch." The spear was turned ash eight feet long, the shaft smooth, thick, and heavy. The last two feet of that was steel: a slender leaf-shaped spearhead narrowing to a wicked spike. The edges looked sharp enough to shave with. When Oberyn spun the haft between the palms of his hand, they glistened black. Oil? Or poison? Tyrion decided that he would sooner not know. "I hope you are good with that," he said doubtfully.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

 

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

And just as an aside, remember that the Mad Mouse [secretly] belongs to House Lothstone.

Geez... or, it's a piece of borrowed equipment... white mouse, red eyes, the KotLT.

[Melifeather]

When Renly parley’d with Stannis he offered him a peach.

GRRM said this about that peach:

The peach represents... Well... It's pleasure. It's… tasting the juices of life. Stannis is a very marshal man concerned with his duty, and with that peach Renly says: “Smell the roses”, because Stannis is always concerned with his duty and honor, in what he should be doing and he never really stops to taste the fruit. Renly wants him to taste the fruit but it's lost. I wish that scene had been included in the TV series because for me that peach was important, but it wasn't possible.”

Stannis had this to say about the peach to Davis:

Renly offered me a peach. At our parley. Mocked me, defied me, threatened me, and offered me a peach. I thought he was drawing a blade and went for mine own. Was that his purpose, to make me show fear? Or was it one of his pointless jests? When he spoke of how sweet the peach was, did his words have some hidden meaning? Only Renly could vex me with a piece of fruit. He brought his doom on himself with his treason, but I did love him, Davos. I know that now. I swear, I will go to my grave thinking of my brother’s peach.

Stannis to Melisandre:

Renly and his peach. In my dreams I see the juice running from his mouth, the blood from his throat. If he had done his duty by his brother, we would have smashed Lord Tywin. A victory even Robert could be proud of.

 

Interestingly, peaches symbolize everlasting Spring,  protection from evil and from thunder, immortality, rebirth, and fertility. Is GRRM saying so much more than pleasure and tasting the juices of life? Rhaegar is a lost Camelot who promised things would be different. Did he go to the Trident intending to parley only to be met with treachery?

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

Geez... or, it's a piece of borrowed equipment... white mouse, red eyes, the KotLT.

I would laugh like the proverbial drain if the KoLT turned out to be Ser Shadrach Lothstone 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I would laugh like the proverbial drain if the KoLT turned out to be Ser Shadrach Lothstone 

Me too.  LOL.  I wouldn't complain if GRRM gets the last laugh.

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I would laugh like the proverbial drain if the KoLT turned out to be Ser Shadrach Lothstone 

That thought occurred to me a while back during one of the many, Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughting Tree threads.  Of course the rationale being since she could ride a horse, she should be able to beat three jousters (all who were able to take the lead position after the first couple of days).  And maybe we’ll learn that she has secretly been obsessively practicing jousting in the Rills and I’ll have to eat crow.  

But it occurred to me, what if there was an Order of the Green Hand still in existence?  But instead of noble born knights, it was made up of vagabonds and hedge knights, all working for the Green Men.  So when a fellow member, Howland, asks for help across the Lake, they send one of their members, a hedge knight, perhaps a Lothston descendant, with a chip on his shoulder to teach the high born knights some manners?

If nothing else it’s no less plausible than Lyanna figuring out how to joust on the fly.

[PrettyPig]

Do we have an approximate age for the Mad Mouse?

I am writing an essay now (which keeps getting sidelined by the family’s head cold, including mine) that looks more deeply into the “gods” of Harrenhal.   If Ser Shadrich - possibly of Der Fledermaus origins - would have been of tourney age in 281, that could bolster my findings for sure.