Heresy 204; of cabbages, prophecies and kings

[Frey family reunion]

On 2/3/2018 at 3:33 AM, Black Crow said:

Its possible and am very much in agreement that Rhaegar's actions or intended actions are at least open to question and need to be re-examined critically. I would, however, propose a slightly different scenario as to the King's Guard, namely that if dragons were to be awakened somehow, Rhaegar was the guy to do it and that the King's Guard were literally left there holding the baby while he nipped round the corner to deal with the rebellion, fully intending to come back later with the kindling and matches; hence their discomfort when Ned tooled up and they were sitting there, trapped by their last orders.

I agree with much of this.  I don't think the kingsguards would have been the ones to conduct the ritual, I think their part may have been to locate and secure the sacrifices, and to guard the location.  I think they were stuck waiting for the persons needed to conduct the ritual.  Perhaps Rhaegar perhaps others.  I assume they needed someone like Mirri, one who had knowledge of blood magic.  Perhaps Marwyn, perhaps whoever is behind Quiathe's mask.   I don't think that all of the conspirators have been accounted for.  If you look to the Worldbook:

Quote

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands.

So who were the six who rode out with Rhaegar and can we account for all of them?  

There are three fairly safe guesses:  Arthur Dayne (died at the tower), Myles Mooton (died at the Battle of the Bells), and Richard Lonmouth (whereabouts unknown).

Then we have the next most probable, Oswell Whent (died at the tower), Jon Connington (exiled after Battle of the Bells), and Lewyn Martell (died at the Trident). 

I tend to doubt Gerold Hightower was one of the six who rode out with Rhaegar since according to Jaime's memory, he was present when Lord Stark and Brandon were killed.  I'm also unsure about Jon Connington, since he appeared to be on hand (no pun intended) when the rebellion started allowing Aerys to appoint him as the new Hand.   So if not Connington, then perhaps Oberyn.  (a man known for collecting bastards, and probably named after a Shakespearean fairy king obsessed with gaining possession of  a kidnapped child).  

So whatever happened to Richard Lonmouth?

And if there was one or more children at the tower, then we must also assume that there was one or more wet nurses as well.  Perhaps Wylla, perhaps Ashara, if the tale of Eddard returning Dawn to her at Starfall was a fabrication, and yes, perhaps Lyanna.

My final take from the Worldbook quote, is that after Rhaegar and his six left King's Landing, they ultimately ended up in the Riverland.  Why use the term ultimately?  If their only task was to either kidnap or escort Lyanna away, why didn't they head directly to the Riverlands?  After all it's just up the road from King's Landing.  It appears that they may have had multiple tasks to accomplish which led them to more than one location, Lyanna being only one of these tasks.

[wolfmaid7]

22 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We've debated wether Lyanna went willing or not, but I am not sure if that changes anything else in the story. 

The simplest version is Rhaegar rides off with Lyanna,  gets her pregnant and hides her away in an old tower.  He tells 3 KG to kill anyone who tries to go near her.  Ned goes looking for her and finds her, kills the KG, but Lyanna dies in childbirth. 

Now saying that is the simplest version isn't saying it is correct.   But in that version,  Ned, Robert, Rheagar,  Arys, Brandon, Rickard all do the same thing with the same motives if Lyanna was a happy lover or tortured rape victim.

We don't know if Rhaegar had anything to do with Lyanna physically at all.That's the issue.Let's look at the story we have in another example.

Where is Arya right now? If you say in Bravos you would be right and wrong and even though you are right factually that means nothing.

Arya is currently the Lady of Winterfell and married to Lord Bolton.That is what everyone else thinks,even her own brother (Jon).

If Jeyne Poole gets preggers her son will be the next Lord of Winterfell unless someone spills the beans.

 

21 hours ago, LynnS said:

Since when does GRRM do anything that's simple?   The Baratheon version is that she was kidnapped and raped.  The Targ version is that Rhaegar loved his lady.  I think the third option is that neither is true: she was neither his lover nor raped by him. 

Well Robert wasn't really coming form fact was he. I don't care who they are any man if they are honest,in Robert's position would think the exact same think. How many times is this guy raping my woman will be top of a list of two.

16 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Obviously if Lyanna was taken by him, was locked away from the rest of the world for a year and bore his child, she had an opinion one way or the other.  Maybe she thought riding off with Rhaegar was a great idea at first and later regretted it, but otherwise I don't see how the truth could be anything other than a love story or kidnapping/rape.

I honeslty don't see that of Lyanna. 

"Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride."

From this statement by Ned,i don't think Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar.

And if anyone did try to take her against her will she wasn't going to go quietly...This is where she might have been badly injured.

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Just as an idle aside, I'm given to understand that there has been a lot of internet criticism of The Last Jedi, not because of any perceived technical or dramatic failings, but because story-arc and characterisations have diverged markedly from those developed as fan theories.

If Winds of Winter or if we live to see it, a Dream of Spring, reveals R+L=J to be untrue, will books be burned and GRRM forced into hiding?

Probably among book readers. Show watchers will probably see it as a twist.Book readers who stake their souls on this it seems might accuse GRRM of lying to them.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree with much of this.  I don't think the kingsguards would have been the ones to conduct the ritual, I think their part may have been to locate and secure the sacrifices, and to guard the location.  I think they were stuck waiting for the persons needed to conduct the ritual.  Perhaps Rhaegar perhaps others.  I assume they needed someone like Mirri, one who had knowledge of blood magic.  Perhaps Marwyn, perhaps whoever is behind Quiathe's mask.   I don't think that all of the conspirators have been accounted for.  If you look to the Worldbook:

So who were the six who rode out with Rhaegar and can we account for all of them?  

There are three fairly safe guesses:  Arthur Dayne (died at the tower), Myles Mooton (died at the Battle of the Bells), and Richard Lonmouth (whereabouts unknown).

Then we have the next most probable, Oswell Whent (died at the tower), Jon Connington (exiled after Battle of the Bells), and Lewyn Martell (died at the Trident). 

I tend to doubt Gerold Hightower was one of the six who rode out with Rhaegar since according to Jaime's memory, he was present when Lord Stark and Brandon were killed.  I'm also unsure about Jon Connington, since he appeared to be on hand (no pun intended) when the rebellion started allowing Aerys to appoint him as the new Hand.   So if not Connington, then perhaps Oberyn.  (a man known for collecting bastards, and probably named after a Shakespearean fairy king obsessed with gaining possession of  a kidnapped child).  

So whatever happened to Richard Lonmouth?

And if there was one or more children at the tower, then we must also assume that there was one or more wet nurses as well.  Perhaps Wylla, perhaps Ashara, if the tale of Eddard returning Dawn to her at Starfall was a fabrication, and yes, perhaps Lyanna.

My final take from the Worldbook quote, is that after Rhaegar and his six left King's Landing, they ultimately ended up in the Riverland.  Why use the term ultimately?  If their only task was to either kidnap or escort Lyanna away, why didn't they head directly to the Riverlands?  After all it's just up the road from King's Landing.  It appears that they may have had multiple tasks to accomplish which led them to more than one location, Lyanna being only one of these tasks.

I agree with the bolded. Ned's statement about rising against the Targs to stop the murder of children wasn't a throw away statement.I think this may have been what happened to some of Aerys's bastards. How much involvement or knowledge Rhaegar had is up for debate.

This may have been the last straw that broke the camels back and the reason Ned held Arthur in such high regard.Knigths are suppose to protect women and children,not sacrifice babies.So what does a knight do when the king OR the crown prince wants to do just that to wake dragons. My money is on Rhaegar.

These "spare babies" wouldn't really be dead,just reborn as dragons Aegon and the other two could use.You wouldn't have to kill your heirs just babies with dragon blood.Bastards.

ETA: Rheagar and buddies rode from KL? I thought was DS? I assumed he left DS seeing as some point he was there with Aegon.

 

[Black Crow]

I don't recall the detail of the argument but it has been plausibly proposed that Lem Lemoncloak and Richard Lonmouth are one and the same, and if so he might have much of interest to tell us.

One point that does occur to me over this possible identification, is why [in plot terms] he would survive to tell the tale?

If he was to confess with his dying breath that he was present the day Rhaegar and Lyanna met on the road, embraced, kissed and rode laughing into the sunset, what's the point, that's what we've already got from the ballad singers. Might he still be alive to tell us a very different story, or is Lem Lemoncloak just a stinky old man of no accunt at all.

[Melifeather]

On 2/2/2018 at 4:27 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Have you ever considered the idea that Arya might actually be more reflective of Benjen and what happened with him during the time of RR?  I’m thinking that Lysa might actually be more of a stand-in for Ashara. Don’t forget that she too smuggled a child out of KL to keep him away from the Lannisters. And she’s the one who winds up pushed from a tower. Plus there’s a fair amount of symbolism in the Vale that is reflective of what might have been occurring in Dorne. 

With Arya, I keep going back to the idea that right before the fight with Joffrey, Sansa recalls questioning if she might be a bastard. Then shortly thereafter there is a similar fight at the Wall. One is the Bastard defending the Butchers Boy. The other is the Bastard defending Ser Piggy. Seems like we’re meant to conflate the two somehow. And when I do that, it links it to Benjen in my mind. 

I definitely agree with the idea of a cycle, things are certainly happening over and over again with different people in the roles. There’s even a hint of the Dance of the Dragons that I’ve noticed in the War of Five Kings that has Cersei being reminiscent of Rhaenyra. And I’m pretty sure that I agree that something happened at the conclusion of the War of Five Kings that did something to that cycle. I’m not sure that it’s an actual complete reversal, but I think it did change the roles that each family might play. 

I definitely will have to take some time and investigate Benjen and Lisa! What you've suggested looks like another repeat of circumstances.

I think there's enough evidence to suggest that the Tourney of Harrenhal was ground zero for the reversal, because the "mirrors" (reversals) are so close together:

Lyanna, a sister to three brothers, chased off three squires with a tourney sword in defense of Howland.  (Howland would be counted as a type of fourth “brother”)

The daughter of Harrenhal, as the queen of love and beauty, was defended by her four brothers at the Tourney. 

Rhaegar’s search for the Knight of the Laughing Tree. 

Howland’s prayer to the old gods for a way to become a knight. 

Meera’s account says Rhaegar never found the Knight, just the shield hanging from a tree.

Howland was successful and found a way to become a knight, and he painted his shield with a laughing weirwood tree. 

The KotLT defeated the three squires’s knights.

Rhaegar won his tilts on the third day as indicated by the words, “the day belonged to Rhaegar.” 

Lyanna’s abduction mirrored the attack on Elia by the Kingswood Brotherhood.

The marriage claims between Rhaegar and Lyanna mirror the Marriage of Rhaegar to Elia.

When Jon Arryn refused to give up Robert Baratheon, that mirrored the Defiance of Duskendale.

The birth of Jon Snow mirrors the birth of Viserys Targaryen.

The executions of Rickard and Brandon Stark mirror the Reyne and Tarbeck massacres.

Robert’s Rebellion mirrors the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

The tower of joy mirrors the tragedy at Summerhal.

The assault on Dragonstone to attempt the capture of Dany and Viserys mirrors the 4th Blackfyre Rebellion.

The Greyjoy Rebellion mirrors the Peak Uprising.

Jumping ahead a bit, the return of white walkers mirrors when Raymun Redbeard united the free folk where they scaled the Wall, but were defeated at the Battle of Long Lake by a host led by Lord William Stark.

The return of dragons mirrors the death of the last dragon.

The rebellions of Renly, Stannis, and Rob Stark mirror the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Blackfyre Rebellions.

The rise of “fake” Aegon Targaryen and Dany’s rule in Meereen mirror the Dance of the Dragons.

Cersei allowing the Faith Militant to carry weapons mirrors the Faith Millitant Uprising.

Victarion’s attack on the Shield Islands mirrors Aegon’s Conquest.

King Stannis’s plan to take the Iron Throne by helping the Night’s Watch mirrors King Sherrit and his curse upon the Andals.

The mutiny and attack upon LC Jon Snow mirrors when the Night’s King was removed from the Wall.

 

 

[Melifeather]

On 2/3/2018 at 10:18 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

 

But Lord's Stark daughter wasn't taken by Bael.Sure from the perspective of her family yeah she was.We are told

"Bael had brought her back?"

"No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. "

So,LSD was missing, yet not missing. This means a couple of details are hiding in the background of this story.

1.Lord Stark's daughter was per Ygritte there all the time.

2. She had to eat so she had accomplices who had to be bringing her food.

3.Bael hit it and ran.I don't think he would be hanging out with her in the crypts for a year.

4.She had been missing for a year.Bael assumed he was the father of her son.

Naturally we assume that Bael is the father.We don't know if that's the truth either.

We probably will get a flasback about what happened.Just as important as an event happening is WHEN it happened.I think when this unfolds it will be revealed some of these elements are not sequence.

 

Be back later to finish.

 

IMO Lyanna was "Bael'ed" out - either out of Winterfell, or as some have suggested, Kings Landing. IMO Arya's escape from Kings Landing mirrors Lyanna's, so is it possible Lyanna was actually at court when she disappeared? Of course we don't know that bit, but when Brandon heard she was gone he went straight to Kings Landing. I realize that the rumor was she was abducted by Rhaegar, but maybe the reason why he went straight to Kings Landing was because that's the last known place where she was?

Whether she was home at Winterfell or at court in Kings Landing a "Bael" type person "plucked" her and took her away. She still is a player in the Bael the Bard story.

 

[PrettyPig]

58 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So who were the six who rode out with Rhaegar and can we account for all of them?

This will sound nutty, but I've been wondering if the Mountain wasn't one of them.   I've been delving a bit into Rhaegar's supposed character, and there are some idiosyncrasies between what we're told about him on page and some of his actions that we've heard about.   Personally knighting Gregor Clegane is one of these, to me - this is a man who deliberately mutilated his young brother for no other reason than a broken toy, who is suspected of killing his father and wives, and who has committed countless atrocities throughout the story.    This character/personality was firmly in place even when the Mountain was a boy ....yet, Rhaegar Targaryen himself confers knighthood upon this literal monster.   The only two other people in the story to receive this honor are Myles Mooton and Richard Lonmouth...both of whom are ALSO suspected of accompanying Rhaegar on his walkabout in the riverlands.

In addition, the Mountain is very clearly Lord Tywin's creature.  In the World Book we received the info that Rhaegar had also passed the Lannister Litmus Test, with Tywin making his feelings known about Rhaegar being the better king during Aerys' imprisonment at Duskendale.     I'm immediately suspicious of anyone that Tywin favors, and lean toward the idea that Rhaegar and Tywin were two peas in a cold-blooded pod - Tywin would have been in a position to groom Rhaegar for rule during his tenure as Hand, and I have a feeling that the friendship package came with the Gregor Clegane bonus feature.

Regarding this tidbit:

Quote

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands.

Rhaegar's posse totaled lucky number 7.    Seven is a holy number, both in Westeros and real life, and Rhaegar brought his "closest friends and confidants" on this quest, meaning they were all in on a big secret and all knew what they were looking for.   I've said this before and will say again:   If you were thinking that you might encounter/were planning to encounter some old and mystical power on your quest, doesn't it make sense that you more or less 'arm yourself in your faith' and ensure your retinue be the correct/holy number of people?       I'm not convinced that Rhaegar had put together this posse just to find his new girlfriend. He was expecting something...bigger.

[JNR]

15 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I am saying there isn't a lot of middle ground between love story and kidnapping/rape.

This assumes some sort of relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna.  But no such relationship can be demonstrated.  

We can't even demonstrate, among other things, that...

• They ever had a conversation

• They ever spent two minutes alone together

• They were even on the same continent at any time during Robert's Rebellion

Whether the fans realize it or not, what GRRM has done is to provide us with an empty narrative -- a complete blank canvas, inside of which the fans can paint whatever they want.   Most choose to paint a tragic romance, but that was only ever their choice.

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

If Winds of Winter or if we live to see it, a Dream of Spring, reveals R+L=J to be untrue, will books be burned and GRRM forced into hiding?

This question was a primary area of speculation on Sable Hall in 2015.

The consensus was that the fandom would undergo an epic cataclysm, as the most popular theory in the history of F/SF was proven false and countless fans decided, unfairly, that GRRM had been trolling them all these years and had been unfair to them and to the narrative.  Something like the Valyrian Doom, perhaps.

That post was written shortly before a certain event happened in the real world, that GRRM knew was coming, and that many fans took as absolute confirmation of R+L=J in the books.   But as GRRM has said countless times, Book World isn't, and has never been, Show World...

[LynnS]

33 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Well Robert wasn't really coming form fact was he. I don't care who they are any man if they are honest,in Robert's position would think the exact same think. How many times is this guy raping my woman will be top of a list of two.

No he wasn't and I think the story was designed to get a reaction out of him.  Rape is a weapon of war; so I can see that twisting his mind.  It's to someone's advantage that Robert thinks that Lyanna is raped especially if there was some account of her taken forcefully.  It would also be to someone's advantage if Lyanna was killed as well.

Of course we don't know what Ned said to Robert on the matter either, and why Robert thinks she was stained, or what he means by 'what Rhaegar did to her' and 'washing her clean'.  It implies that he thinks she was violated.  It's certainly the only story he will believe.

For some reason, Lyanna's love of flowers reminds me of Ned's impression of Varys whose hands are stained:
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV

The councillor Ned liked least, the eunuch Varys, accosted him the moment he entered. "Lord Stark, I was grievous sad to hear about your troubles on the kingsroad. We have all been visiting the sept to light candles for Prince Joffrey. I pray for his recovery." His hand left powder stains on Ned's sleeve, and he smelled as foul and sweet as flowers on a grave.

 

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

I'm not convinced that Rhaegar had put together this posse just to find his new girlfriend. He was expecting something...bigger.

What was he expecting?  There are more riddles to you than a book by Martin. Was he looking for holy blood?  Howland Reed?

[LynnS]

48 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

"Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride."

And the reason she had to die if Kevan Lannister is anything to go by.  First Rhaegar and Elia, then Lyanna; that clears the path to Robert.

 

[LynnS]

39 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

In addition, the Mountain is very clearly Lord Tywin's creature.  In the World Book we received the info that Rhaegar had also passed the Lannister Litmus Test, with Tywin making his feelings known about Rhaegar being the better king during Aerys' imprisonment at Duskendale.

But it seems that whatever Tywin offered; it was the road not taken:
 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs. Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she'd flowered, ahhhh … had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.

But it did no good to brood on lost battles and roads not taken. That was a vice of old done men. Rhaegar had wed Elia of Dorne, Lyanna Stark had died, Robert Baratheon had taken Cersei to bride, and here they were. And tonight his own road would take him to his niece's chambers and face-to-face with Cersei.

I have no reason to feel guilty, Ser Kevan told himself. Tywin would understand that, surely. It was his daughter who brought shame down on our name, not I. What I did I did for the good of House Lannister.

A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

"Then guard the king," Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey."

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

 

39 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands.

Was there supposed to be a meeting with Brandon?  Is this why he took off all of a sudden?

This brings into question Selmy's thoughts about luring someone into a meeting to trap them and accuse them of treason, a gambit he has seen before:
 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Queensguard

He did not wish to be conspicuous, so when he was finished with his supper he changed out of his court clothes, trading the white cloak of the Queensguard for a hooded brown traveler's cloak such as any common man might wear. He kept his sword and dagger. This could still be some trap. He had little trust in Hizdahr and less in Reznak mo Reznak. The perfumed seneschal could well be part of this, trying to lure him into a secret meeting so he could sweep up him and Skahaz both and charge them with conspiring against the king. If the Shavepate speaks treason, he will leave me no choice but to arrest him. Hizdahr is my queen's consort, however little I may like it. My duty is to him, not Skahaz.

So was there a plan to entrap Brandon and Rhaegar with a secret meeting and charge  them both with conspiracy?  Was Rhaegar a no show?  It certainly seems that Brandon feels betrayed by Rhaegar for some reason when he shows up at KL and ends up accused of treason.  

 

[PrettyPig]

30 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What was he expecting?  There are more riddles to you than a book by Martin. Was he looking for holy blood?  Howland Reed?

If I knew that, I wouldn't be wasting half my life throwing out bizarre theories on these forums, that's for dang sure.

No idea what he was looking for, or what he hoped to find.   Much crackpot, of course, but nothing that I'm going to tell about here.  I suspect something related to magical powers - but whether a power, an artifact, or something that would aid in his own attainment of magical power, I do not know.

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

But it seems that whatever Tywin offered; it was the road not taken:

Yes, IMO there was a double-cross involved.  Others have covered a betrayal by Tywin pretty thoroughly and IMO there are some really good elements in those ideas that seem probable.   

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

If I knew that, I wouldn't be wasting half my life throwing out bizarre theories on these forums, that's for dang sure.

Well then you do Martin proud.  Because I really do think that he gets tremendous satisfaction from firing up the creative juices in the minds of those such as yourself, FreyFamilyReunion and Crystal Feather, to name only a few.  Of course, he's also challenging the minds of analysts and logical thinkers as well.  Triple dog daring everyone to figure him out.  I've given up long ago.  LOL 

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Whether the fans realize it or not, what GRRM has done is to provide us with an empty narrative -- a complete blank canvas, inside of which the fans can paint whatever they want.

The bolded is not accurate.

A "blank canvas" would be Lyanna and Rhaegar coincidentally disappearing at the same time, and the readers erroneously linking those two events. This is not what has happened--the readers are presented with a narrative that Rhaegar Targaryen took Lyanna hostage (Robert), or perhaps even loved her (Barristan). 

A potentially untrue narrative should not be mistaken, nor represented as, the absence of narrative, much less as a fan invention.

Similarly, the leap that Rhaegar may have been at the ToJ is not much of a leap at all; hearsay in a work of fiction is not identical to hearsay in a criminal trial. As you said only pages ago, every single line has been crafted and chosen by the author, even those that may turn out to exist only to misdirect.

That a reader might hear that notorious sad sack Rhaegar Targaryen had named a place "the tower of joy," then later be shown a dream that links that location with the KG (which a SSM further suggests may have been there on Rhaegar's orders) and Lyanna's death, all while also presenting the in-world understanding that Lyanna was Rhaegar's hostage, and see those things as a part of a connected narrative, is not a mistake--it's not even a leap of logic. It's...basic awareness that one is reading a work of fiction, and that information exists to create context

Again, that context may prove incorrect, but even a red herring is built on a purposefully misleading narrative.

[LynnS]

36 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Again, that context may prove incorrect, but even a red herring is built on a purposefully misleading narrative.

I wouldn't say a blank canvas but more a canvas without a frame and a few brush strokes.

[wolfmaid7]

57 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

The bolded is not accurate.

A "blank canvas" would be Lyanna and Rhaegar coincidentally disappearing at the same time, and the readers erroneously linking those two events. This is not what has happened--the readers are presented with a narrative that Rhaegar Targaryen took Lyanna hostage (Robert), or perhaps even loved her (Barristan). 

A potentially untrue narrative should not be mistaken, nor represented as, the absence of narrative, much less as a fan invention.

Similarly, the leap that Rhaegar may have been at the ToJ is not much of a leap at all; hearsay in a work of fiction is not identical to hearsay in a criminal trial. As you said only pages ago, every single line has been crafted and chosen by the author, even those that may turn out to exist only to misdirect.

That a reader might hear that notorious sad sack Rhaegar Targaryen had named a place "the tower of joy," then later be shown a dream that links that location with the KG (which a SSM further suggests may have been there on Rhaegar's orders) and Lyanna's death, all while also presenting the in-world understanding that Lyanna was Rhaegar's hostage, and see those things as a part of a connected narrative, is not a mistake--it's not even a leap of logic. It's...basic awareness that one is reading a work of fiction, and that information exists to create context

Again, that context may prove incorrect, but even a red herring is built on a purposefully misleading narrative.

I agree, i wouldn't call it a blank canvas we are given "info" i have always been on the side( given the story we are in) of the unreliable narrator.

1. We are given the belief by several people (non insiders) that Rhaegar kidnapped or ran of with Lyanna .This is important because no where do we hear that Rhaegar kidnapped or ran off with Lyanna from Ned or even Robert.

We know that Brandon according to Cat headed off to KL after he "heard about Lyanna" 

What we know is according to Robert,Rhaegar did something to Lyanna.There is a simple explanation to this and it has to do with a believed double cross.They both know Rhaegar didn't kidnap or run off with Lyanna but Robert believes Rhaegar did something that led to her death.

Its a layered and seemless tale that makes sense as a red herring, but when looked at closer there are craters where there need not be any. This entire narrative in truth is hearsay,character and reader bias with some serious mis direction mixed in.

 

[Brad Stark]

11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Just as an idle aside, I'm given to understand that there has been a lot of internet criticism of The Last Jedi, not because of any perceived technical or dramatic failings, but because story-arc and characterisations have diverged markedly from those developed as fan theories.

If Winds of Winter or if we live to see it, a Dream of Spring, reveals R+L=J to be untrue, will books be burned and GRRM forced into hiding?

I, for one, hope the simple version is wrong and GRRM reveals something better and more complicated.  The more time passes, the more anger, resentment and disappointment he will see from his strongest fans.  After all, it is just a book, he is just human, and in the grand scheme of things, will probably be forgotten long before Shakespear or even JRRT.  At this point, nothing can live up to my expectations of thinking about this book for 6 years.

[Brad Stark]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

It may be that Aerys is not as mad as he appears; at least some of the time.  His obsession with the Starks may have something to do with Rhaegar's gesture and attempt to eliminate the Starks.  An attempt to dominate ice with fire.  He certainly seemed to have been subjected to dreams about waking the dragon or transforming into a dragon.  

I've long though Aerys was a lot saner than we were led to believe.  Are you really paranoid if everyone really is out to get you?  Having to burn someone alive isn't exactly sanity, but much of what he did makes sense.

[Brad Stark]

 

5 hours ago, JNR said:

This assumes some sort of relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna.  But no such relationship can be demonstrated.  

We can't even demonstrate, among other things, that...

• They ever had a conversation

• They ever spent two minutes alone together

• They were even on the same continent at any time during Robert's Rebellion

Whether the fans realize it or not, what GRRM has done is to provide us with an empty narrative -- a complete blank canvas, inside of which the fans can paint whatever they want.   Most choose to paint a tragic romance, but that was only ever their choice.

I disagree completely, and believe GRRM clearly intended to have the readers (and probably some of the book characters) believe J=R+L, whether it be a love story or rape.  That doesn't mean J=R+L is true, he intentionally led us down the path in the first book of believing Ned would be central to the story, and later Rob, so he is clearly misdirecting us.  So J=R+L might be true or might be misdirection, but the canvas clearly has been painted with the artist leaving interpretation to the viewer of his art for now.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I've long though Aerys was a lot saner than we were led to believe.  Are you really paranoid if everyone really is out to get you?  Having to burn someone alive isn't exactly sanity, but much of what he did makes sense.

Yes, we tend to dismiss the 'crazy' characters and I think this is a great way to hide some of the truths or clues that are laid down as nonsensical.