Heresy 204; of cabbages, prophecies and kings

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

I would have to agree; it seems all but unquestionable that Eddard fought with Arthur Dayne as per the information you cited. Furthermore, some sort of conflict took place at the ToJ or within its vicinity to cause the death of Eddard's companions, at least as the story is understood publicly.

From Lady Dustin:

In addition, there's an SSM where Martin confirms that Eddard's army did not accompany him into Dorne, so Lord Dustin did not die in the Red Mountains as a part of a larger military battle--whatever happened, it was a small scale conflict that resulted in the death of Eddard's entire coterie, save for himself and Howland Reed.

Given that Eddard later delivers Dawn to Starfall (and we're given no reason to believe he made future ventures to Starfall), it seems unlikely that Dayne died at any other point, chronologically.

Finally, as a matter of purely subjective taste, I think this whole "The KG were never at the ToJ" would be a really disappointing storytelling gimmick for GRRM to employ; it is, IMO, more compelling to surprise the reader by giving them incomplete information and allowing them to jump to their own conclusions, rather than feeding the reader false plot points.

I still don't get the significance of whether the KG and/or Lyanna were at the tower.

Suppose I propose a theory that Arthur Dayne was wearing Tytos Blackwood's raven feather cloak.  Nothing we've read contradicts this, and if GRRM ever finishes, the full story might not say either.  But it is a needless extra detail that doesn't change the story, so it just isn't interesting. 

How does the location change the story?

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

Sure.  However, it doesn't explain Ned's flat statement, while fully conscious, that Arthur Dayne would have killed him if not for Howland Reed.  

Unless Ned was lying to Bran when he said it, this proves Ned fought Dayne, it was a fight to the death, and Howland was also present and played an active role.  

We can still theorize it didn't happen at the TOJ, but such theories will still need to include Ned fighting Dayne to the death and being saved by Howland.  And it's not possible, based on current canon, to establish that Dayne was anywhere Ned also was, at any time during the Rebellion.

Another point.  The TOJ passage states that this is an old dream:

So Ned has had it before, when he wasn't sick.  The fever isn't relevant, and we also know this is something of enormous importance to Ned, for him to dream of it multiple times over the years.

Finally, I hope no one reading this interprets any of this to be support for R+L=J.  

The presence of the Kingsguard at the TOJ and the theory of R+L=J are separate; the first, if true, does not confirm the second.  In fact, as I have said many times before on this site, I'm quite satisfied that Jon's parents are not Rhaegar and Lyanna.

I'd like to propose an alternate dialog based on Arya and Sansa's respective escapes from Kings Landing, because I believe they mirror (and note things are opposite in mirrors) Lyanna and Ashara.

Sandor Clegane is a mirrored (opposite) Arthur Dayne. The former rejects the title of a "white knight" and everything the position implies, while the latter is held up as the shining example of a gallant and valiant one. 

Arya, Ned noted, was very much like Lyanna - a wild rebellious girl that bucked the traditional norms and brandished a sword. She was even complimented on her horsemanship by the former master-of-horse's son. I posit that Sandor and Arya retraced Arthur and Lyanna's trail through the Riverlands, but what happened at the end? Arya left Sandor to die and made her way onto a ship to Braavos. 

Sansa, on the other hand, slipped out of Kings Landing with the help of Petyr BAELish. She too seems to mirror Lyanna in some respects, but I am of the opinion that when she left she was actually mirroring Ashara Dayne, but who was Ashara's "Bael"? In my earlier post up-thread I suggested that Ned's fever dream was a fight between 7 northmen and a three-headed Bael. Arthur was one of the heads, so I theorize that Arthur snuck Ashara out of the castle as her Bael. Now recall this would all be happening around the time of Lyanna's disappearance, so before the actual Rebellion starts.

Arya didn't leave Kings Landing with Sandor. She was smuggled out by a man of the Nights Watch (Yoren), and didn't leave his possession until the attack on the abandoned holdfast by Ser Amory Lorch. (Any chance that this location mirrors "a tower long fallen"?) But I digress. Arya and her friends are captured by Ser Gregor's soldiers - (Polliver) - and taken to Harrenhal - lots of things happen here, Weasel soup, cup-bearer to Roose Bolton, another escape, then later another capture by the Brotherhood Without Banners, before ending up with Sandor. There're so many things that happen to Arya that I cannot help but wonder if Lyanna experienced some of the same?

Circling back to Sansa. Sandor asks her to come with him. She declines, but eventually ends up leaving with the help of Bael. If Sandor is Arthur's inversion and Sansa is Ashara - Ashara would have had no such problem accepting Arthur's help leaving. Recall that Sansa dyes her hair and pretends to be Bael's daughter, eventually ending up at the Eyrie. Arya and Sandor were on their way to the Eyrie and decide to go to Riverrun instead. In a similar vein "a man (Bael)" and "a maid" travel as a fisherman and his daughter - a tale regaled by Ned. IMO the maid was likely Ashara brought to the Eyrie by her brother who was the identity of the "dead" fisherman. This may be an alternate narrative for how Ned came to have Arthur's sword.

I understand that I have a conflict with Arthur being with both Lyanna and Ashara, but recall that Arya didn't connect with Sandor until after the Brotherhood W/O Banners. Then she and Sansa were nearly reunited at the Eyrie, but Sandor took her to Riverrun instead. Sansa stays at the Eyrie and Arya goes on to Braavos. We've got a missing Ashara. Well, we do have the story that she jumped from a tower, and towers are just inverted wells which lead to the underworld. Ashara is "dead" to the world, but it is possible that she's the one that went on to Braavos, while Lyanna stayed behind?

Going further back in history we have Elia being attacked by the Kingswood Brotherhood - and Ser Gerold Hightower was injured. (a variation where the maid was fine and Bael was injured) King Aerys in response sent Arthur Dayne leading a group to put an end to the KWB. There was another group led by Kevan Lannister that mimicked the KWB in holding nobles for money. All of the above are mirrored by the Brotherhood Without Banners, which are led by Beric Dondarrion who was originally sent out by Ned (mirroring Aerys and Arthur) to put an end to raiders led by Ser Gregor Clegane, again in the Riverlands. This is just one example of the wheel of time repeating with differing results. I would include Arianne Martell as repeating a similar situation, with Ser Arys Oakheart leading little Myrcella Lannister to a well where she’s attacked by Gerold Dayne – interesting how his name is like a two-headed Bael, and Myrcella stands in as Bael’s maiden. Arys Oakheart is mirroring Arthur Dayne, and in this version of the wheel of time – HE ends up dead instead of the maiden – executed by a Captain of Guards Areo Hotah.

Where am I going with this? It’s a long alternative narrative for the whereabouts of the Kingsguard, because I believe they played out similar Bael-type roles on the wheel of time.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I would have to agree; it seems all but unquestionable that Eddard fought with Arthur Dayne as per the information you cited. Furthermore, some sort of conflict took place at the ToJ or within its vicinity to cause the death of Eddard's companions, at least as the story is understood publicly.

From Lady Dustin:

In addition, there's an SSM where Martin confirms that Eddard's army did not accompany him into Dorne, so Lord Dustin did not die in the Red Mountains as a part of a larger military battle--whatever happened, it was a small scale conflict that resulted in the death of Eddard's entire coterie, save for himself and Howland Reed.

Given that Eddard later delivers Dawn to Starfall (and we're given no reason to believe he made future ventures to Starfall), it seems unlikely that Dayne died at any other point, chronologically.

Finally, as a matter of purely subjective taste, I think this whole "The KG were never at the ToJ" would be a really disappointing storytelling gimmick for GRRM to employ; it is, IMO, more compelling to surprise the reader by giving them incomplete information and allowing them to jump to their own conclusions, rather than feeding the reader false plot points.

I agree

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I still don't get the significance of whether the KG and/or Lyanna were at the tower.

Suppose I propose a theory that Arthur Dayne was wearing Tytos Blackwood's raven feather cloak.  Nothing we've read contradicts this, and if GRRM ever finishes, the full story might not say either.  But it is a needless extra detail that doesn't change the story, so it just isn't interesting. 

How does the location change the story?

Its not the location per se but rather the narrative built by readers treating the dream literally.

3 x members of the Kings Guard including Prince Rhaegar's sworn swords + "the tower of joy" + Lyanna dying in what's assumed to be childbed = Rhaegar and Lyanna were lovers blissfully hiding out in the tower protected by the King's Guard until Lyanna dies bearing Jon Targaryen

Not taking the dream literally and recognising it as a conflation of two separate dreams with the Kings Guard certainly at the tower but Lyanna dying at a different time and place offers a different narrative [or two...]

[Black Crow]

As to the exchange between Lord Eddard and the King's Guard, what's very conspicuously missing from the dialogue if we are to follow the popular theory, are the immortal words: "Where the Hell is my sister?"

[JNR]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Where I think the fever comes into it is by way of including Lyanna. He may well have dreamt of Lyanna in the past too but in his fevered state two different dreams morphed into one.

Could be.  It depends on whether you read "of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood" to mean they were all part of the old dream or not.  

To me, that sentence does mean they are all part of the old dream.

However, the dream also contains freaky surrealistic things like a storm of rose petals -- that aren't mentioned as being part of the old dream.  So if the fever is behind those, that would make sense to me.

4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Finally, as a matter of purely subjective taste, I think this whole "The KG were never at the ToJ" would be a really disappointing storytelling gimmick for GRRM to employ

I think so too.  That dialogue was very carefully thought out and elegantly rendered and I struggle to believe GRRM will one day tell us "Nah, it never happened."  I think he knew perfectly well that serious fans would analyze the bejeezus out of it, and I also think he plays fair.  

But it's perfectly fair, as Matthew says, to leave things out.  Such as what else was said or done on that momentous occasion that didn't make the greatest hits we see in the dream. 

I mean, if you think that Ned's old dream is about "(1) three knights in white cloaks, and (2) a tower long fallen, and (3) Lyanna in her bed of blood" then you expect those three elements to show up in the dream, right?

We got knights in white cloaks.  We got tower long fallen. We did not get Lyanna in any bed of blood.  So that's basically GRRM stating: "Hell yes, I left some important stuff out of that fever version of the old dream."

[Brad Stark]

31 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Its not the location per se but rather the narrative built by readers treating the dream literally.

3 x members of the Kings Guard including Prince Rhaegar's sworn swords + "the tower of joy" + Lyanna dying in what's assumed to be childbed = Rhaegar and Lyanna were lovers blissfully hiding out in the tower protected by the King's Guard until Lyanna dies bearing Jon Targaryen

Not taking the dream literally and recognising it as a conflation of two separate dreams with the Kings Guard certainly at the tower but Lyanna dying at a different time and place offers a different narrative [or two...]

If Lyanna being found by Ned, Lyanna  dying and the Kingsguard battle were at different places or times, what possible reason would Ned have for the fight?  I suppose it is possible Ned had the battle at the tower, then took Lyanna back to Starfall where she died later.  But this doesn't change the story. 

[Black Crow]

9 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

If Lyanna being found by Ned, Lyanna  dying and the Kingsguard battle were at different places or times, what possible reason would Ned have for the fight?  I suppose it is possible Ned had the battle at the tower, then took Lyanna back to Starfall where she died later.  But this doesn't change the story. 

Well the dialogue as reported has nothing to do with Lyanna and everything to do with

The War is over its time to pack it in - We're the Kings Guard, surrendering is for sissies

[Matthew.]

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I still don't get the significance of whether the KG and/or Lyanna were at the tower.

Regardless of whether or not Lyanna herself was at the ToJ (especially during Ned's showdown), Rhaegar apparently had some reason to find "joy" in the location--personally, I'm inclined to believe that this is either because of something related to dragons and TPtwP, or something related to Lyanna (perhaps both).

IMO, the significance of the ToJ is its...lack of significance. It's a tower in the middle of nowhere. By all appearances, whatever Rhaegar was doing during his absence, he valued secrecy, a need for secrecy that may very well have extended to his own father--which, in turn, means he also has to stay off of Varys' radar.

Thus, even if the Daynes were co-conspirators, that doesn't mean that Starfall is a safe base operations; if Rhaegar does not want his comings and goings being tracked by peasants, servants, knights, Septons, merchants, maesters, and the various other people in Starfall that might potentially sell him out, then Starfall (or any sizable town or castle) would not be safe.

Granted, it's not clear where the ToJ was located relative to the main road(s?) through the Red Mountains, but I'm going to hazard a guess that, even if people were to regularly pass in its vicinity, the ToJ was not being treated as some sort of waystation.

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its not the location per se but rather the narrative built by readers treating the dream literally.

3 x members of the Kings Guard including Prince Rhaegar's sworn swords + "the tower of joy" + Lyanna dying in what's assumed to be childbed = Rhaegar and Lyanna were lovers blissfully hiding out in the tower protected by the King's Guard until Lyanna dies bearing Jon Targaryen

Not taking the dream literally and recognising it as a conflation of two separate dreams with the Kings Guard certainly at the tower but Lyanna dying at a different time and place offers a different narrative [or two...]

And I would argue that it favors two different narratives.  The tower of joy would be culmination of Rhaegar’s plans, which seem to involve the prince that was promised, the dragon having thee heads, and perhaps his version of Summerhall.

Lyanna’s death, is the culmination of her narrative.  I too think it occurred in a seperate place from the tower of joy.  I’m leaning towards your suggestion that she may have died in Starfall.  

Obviously Ned finds a link between the two events.  Perhaps the link is symbolic for Ned or more literal.  

If Lyanna was confined to a bed in Starfall, the narrative may be as follows.  Ned and company travel to Starfall, to “free” Lyanna.  Lyanna is sick and bedridden.  Ned and company learn of the tower of joy and are given a task that may benefit Lyanna and/or Ashara.  Ned and company travel to the tower of joy, fulfill the mission and then return to Starfall.  Lyanna’s death occurs shortly after they return.  We know that Lyanna elicits more than one promise from Ned before her death.  Perhaps one of the promises was linked to something that Ned recovered at the tower of joy and perhaps another promise was seperate.

Another possibility is that the chronology of the dream is reversed.  Lyanna dies at Starfall and before she does, elicits from Ned a promise that prompts his journey to the tower of joy.

It should not be forgotten that Lord Dayne names his first born son and heir after Eddard.  This seems to imply that Eddard performed some great service for House Dayne.  It is highly possible that Ned’s journey to the tower of joy may have been a mission that indebted House Dayne to Eddard.

 

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Well the dialogue as reported has nothing to do with Lyanna and everything to do with

The War is over its time to pack it in - We're the Kings Guard, surrendering is for sissies

Ned asked them to do something they were not willing to, and it was something Ned was willing to fight them to the death over.  Knowing Ned, it either involved his honor or his sister.  Knowing the Kingsguard, it involved something they were commanded to do.  They weren't guarding Rheagar or Arys.  Maybe my tinfoil theory putting Daenerys Targaryen  in Dorne at that time applies, and has something to do with the Kingsguard, but it can't possibly have anything to do with Ned.

[LynnS]

I am still reluctant to paint a picture of Rhaegar as someone who would kidnap Lyann because they were desperately in love or that he had some dark purpose in fulfilling a prophecy.  We only know Rhaegar through the company he kept or the testimonials of his character by those who knew him. 
 

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

It had been years since his last vigil. And I was younger then, a boy of fifteen years. He had worn no armor then, only a plain white tunic. The sept where he'd spent the night was not a third as large as any of the Great Sept's seven transepts. Jaime had laid his sword across the Warrior's knees, piled his armor at his feet, and knelt upon the rough stone floor before the altar. When dawn came his knees were raw and bloody. "All knights must bleed, Jaime," Ser Arthur Dayne had said, when he saw. "Blood is the seal of our devotion." With dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime's tunic, so he bled anew. He never felt it. A boy knelt; a knight rose. The Young Lion, not the Kingslayer.

 

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

Summed up like that, his life seemed a rather scant and mingy thing. Ser Barristan could have recorded a few of his other tourney victories, at least. And Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he'd performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner's life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he'd held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

The world was simpler in those days, Jaime thought, and men as well as swords were made of finer steel. Or was it only that he had been fifteen? They were all in their graves now, the Sword of the Morning and the Smiling Knight, the White Bull and Prince Lewyn, Ser Oswell Whent with his black humor, earnest Jon Darry, Simon Toyne and his Kingswood Brotherhood, bluff old Sumner Crakehall. And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

Jaime had served with Meryn Trant and Boros Blount for years; adequate fighters, but Trant was sly and cruel, and Blount a bag of growly air. Ser Balon Swann was better suited to his cloak, and of course the Knight of Flowers was supposedly all a knight should be. The fifth man was a stranger to him, this Osmund Kettleblack.

He wondered what Ser Arthur Dayne would have to say of this lot. "How is it that the Kingsguard has fallen so low," most like. "It was my doing," I would have to answer. "I opened the door, and did nothing when the vermin began to crawl inside."

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime IV

"Good luck getting answers then," said Jaime. "If you want their help, you need to make them love you. That was how Arthur Dayne did it, when we rode against the Kingswood Brotherhood. He paid the smallfolk for the food we ate, brought their grievances to King Aerys, expanded the grazing lands around their villages, even won them the right to fell a certain number of trees each year and take a few of the king's deer during the autumn. The forest folk had looked to Toyne to defend them, but Ser Arthur did more for them than the Brotherhood could ever hope to do, and won them to our side. After that, the rest was easy."

This is Jaime's recollection of Arthur Dayne who is Rhaegar's closest friend from boyhood.  It's difficult for me to believe that Rhaegar's character wasn't similarly affected.  It's the ghost of Rhaegar who accuses Jaime of failing to protect his children.  This may be a guilt projection on Jaime's part; but it's also a reflection of Rhaegar's character. 

The protection of children or the murder of children is the cause of conflict between Robert and Ned, perhaps an unresolved conflict.  I think Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne at least would have this in common with Ned.  Perhaps the reason why Ned has no animosity towards Rhaegar and holds Arthur Dayne in such high esteem.

We also have comparisons between Dany and Rhaegar; that she is more like her Rhaegar than Aerys; that she shows no signs of the madness that consumed her father and by extension, neither did Rhaegar.   Dany is a defender of the downtrodden and Rhaegar seems to have wanted to restore the realm to a just rule. 

So whatever is behind the disappearance of Lyanna; I don't think it has anything to do with Rhaegar forcing the prophecy one way or the other.  If he thought he was the pwip; that alone would account for his interest in the prophecy and his purpose.  At one point, he identifies that part of that purpose is to be a warrior.  We later learn that it's his son Aegon who is the pwip; so what purpose is there in kidnapping Lyanna for procreation?  It seems to me that all his efforts would go to protecting the pwip.

His fascination with Summerhall is curious; a place where he liked to sleep under the stars.  I think it possible that he sought out the Ghost of High Heart there and composed and traded songs for dreams. Aemon mentions dreams but not the dreamer.  This may be where he learns of Lyanna and why he looked twice at her at Harrenhal.   He doesn't actually crown Lyanna; it's Ned who does that in his dreams.  So I do like the notion that Lyanna is the May Queen who dies to bring in the new season.  But I don't think this means that Rhaegar is responsible for that happening.   

The fact that Aemon thinks they got it wrong over the hatching of dragon eggs; laments that they didn't learn anything from Summerhall; suggests that this was discussed with Rhaegar along with the AA prophecy and the role of the Warrior of Justice.  Rhaegar may have thought that he was meant to fulfill that part of the prophecy.  Aemon concludes that it is proof that Dany is the one; not that Rhaegar was fooling around with rituals of sacrifice to hatch eggs.  All Aemon does is confirm that it's knowledge they had lost.  

That fact that Rhaegar names the pwip Aegon; tells me that he thinks the prince is meant to restore peace, prosperity and justice to the realm and I think this is Rhaegar's intent for calling a great council.     

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

 

I'm inclined to think that the 'storm of rose petals, blue as the eyes of death' has more to do with Bran than Jon. It's Bran who will be born as a consequence of Arthur's death and the reason why Howland intervened.  The blood-streaked sky or red dawn is most likely a vision of the red comet; the sign and portent of the birth of dragons.

 

[LynnS]

On 1/31/2018 at 3:43 AM, ravenous reader said:

He's referencing his own relatives, no doubt. It's in the nature of dragons to kill other dragons to consolidate power -- I do believe they refer to it most poetically as a 'dance', or indeed 'song...' Jon was supposed to be 'the song of ice and fire' -- it's the recipe for 'cooking up dragons' Rhaegar was following in his quasi-psychotic obsession with raising the dead. Although I believe Jon is genetically the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, I don't believe in the love story. The clue is in the blue wreath, the 'bitter blooms' or 'false flowers' harboring 'claws', which he (in)famously bestowed upon her marking her for death (the chosen queen of love and beauty is a 'May Queen' image -- that festival historically involved ritual sex followed by murder of the May Queen in order to resurrect the dead season). The 'smiles died' and 'false spring' indeed.  Additionally, there's Rhaegar's reputation of being such a 'sorrowful man' overcome by the gravity of what he 'had to do', a bit like the story of Azor Ahai stabbing his wife with heavy heart, and those other euphemistically named assassins who apologize before killing their victims.

Rhaegar doesn't have a recipe for cooking up dragons any more than Aemon.  Whatever they were doing at Summerhall involved Pyromancers and making a fire hot enough to hatch dragon eggs.  They were experimenting with dragon eggs; so there really is no recipe that Rhaegar could follow.  Not even Dany had the recipe; she was chosen to be the mother of dragons.  Mirri Maaz Duur tries to stop the prophecy and it turns out exactly the opposite.  Melisandre thinks she has the recipe but I doubt that Rhaegar has more knowledge of this than a sorcerer, bloodmage and shadowbinder rolled into one.

The blue wreath might be bitter blooms or false flowers but I doubt Rhaegar was psychotic like Aerys or so secretive that nobody knew he was fooling around with dragon eggs at Summerhall or the Tower Oh Joy.  But he might have learned something about Lyanna from 'the dreamer' in exchange for songs.  

He's not a sorrowful man who does what he must but regrets it.  That's Varys' bailiwick.  He could be melancholy for any number of reasons including the fact that his father is Aerys who abuses his mother and is himself losing his mind.  As the prince regent that would create a certain gravity for his situation, especially someone who is a bookish and educated as Rhaegar.

The Azor Ahai prophecy says nothing about kings blood.  The forging of the sword has to do with turning it from a cool blade into a blade that is always warm to the touch.  Nissa Nissa is a dragon; the beast that AA once slew.  I think it's likely that the Dawn Sword is sharp enough to cut through dragon armor plating but who can claim it is still up in the air.    

 

[LynnS]

Does anyone think that Howland actually participated in the fighting at the ToJ?  How did he survive while all the rest did not?  Was it really seven against three or six against three?

The dawn sword alive with light; reminds me of the Prologue of GoT:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

Will heard the breath go out of Ser Waymar Royce in a long hiss. "Come no farther," the lordling warned. His voice cracked like a boy's. He threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands. The wind had stopped. It was very cold.

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

 

 

[JNR]

14 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Ned asked them to do something they were not willing to, and it was something Ned was willing to fight them to the death over.

He may well have, but that's not in the dialogue we have.

However, I really think we can boil the issue down to this sentence and its ramifications:

Quote

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

If Ned had never had the dream before, it would be new.  Not old.  Therefore he has had it multiple times over the years.

The elements of this old dream he has had before include (1) the KG, (2) the tower in Dorne, and (3) Lyanna in her bed of blood. 

So it doesn't matter much that Lyanna isn't in a bed of blood in the dream Ned has in AGOT.  The AGOT version is abbreviated, probably because of Poole waking him up.

My conclusions are:

1. The TOJ scene did happen basically as described

2. Lyanna was probably at the tower

3. Ned's AGOT dream is not a complete version, either of the dream he's had before, or of the scene as it happened in reality

But this has nothing to do with how long Lyanna has been there.  Or why she's there. 

It also does not establish Rhaegar ever set foot in the TOJ. Ned has only heard (somehow? from someone?) that "it was said" Rhaegar named it the TOJ... which does not mean Rhaegar was there personally.

So the idea that the TOJ scene is all about R+L=J remains a particularly athletic conclusion long jump.  If you get a good running start and don't slip, it might be you can make it.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

He may well have, but that's not in the dialogue we have.

However, I really think we can boil the issue down to this sentence and its ramifications:

If Ned had never had the dream before, it would be new.  Not old.  Therefore he has had it multiple times over the years.

The elements of this old dream he has had before include (1) the KG, (2) the tower in Dorne, and (3) Lyanna in her bed of blood. 

So it doesn't matter much that Lyanna isn't in a bed of blood in the dream Ned has in AGOT.  The AGOT version is abbreviated, probably because of Poole waking him up.

My conclusions are:

1. The TOJ scene did happen basically as described

2. Lyanna was probably at the tower

3. Ned's AGOT dream is not a complete version, either of the dream he's had before, or of the scene as it happened in reality

But this has nothing to do with how long Lyanna has been there.  Or why she's there. 

It also does not establish Rhaegar ever set foot in the TOJ. Ned has only heard (somehow? from someone?) that "it was said" Rhaegar named it the TOJ... which does not mean Rhaegar was there personally.

So the idea that the TOJ scene is all about R+L=J remains a particularly athletic conclusion long jump.  If you get a good running start and don't slip, it might be you can make it.

I will add something.

"He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood."

 

"A tower long fallen"

We don't know if the tower long fallen is the tower Rhaegar called joy.

What we do know is it is "a tower long fallen"

Ned doesn't identify the tower as toj, we do.

[wolfmaid7]

22 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I still don't get the significance of whether the KG and/or Lyanna were at the tower.

Suppose I propose a theory that Arthur Dayne was wearing Tytos Blackwood's raven feather cloak.  Nothing we've read contradicts this, and if GRRM ever finishes, the full story might not say either.  But it is a needless extra detail that doesn't change the story, so it just isn't interesting. 

How does the location change the story?

Well there is the story and the story people think happened.

If Lyanna wasn't there when people think she was that's kind of a big deal.

That's a lie unravelling.That is a theory with elements that are wrong.

We don't have any proof Lyanna was there.Not even Ned's dream put Lyanna in that tower.The dream puts Lyanna in Ned's dream with a host of other elements.

Ned's breakdown of his dream imo plays to the idea that they are all elements of a dream.

"Three knights in white cloaks,and a tower long fallen and Lyanna in her bed of blood."

Let us look at Ned as an example.

Ned's fight with Jamie and his men had nothing to with the 3 kgs he saw outside Robert's dying room.None of the preceding had any thing to do with how Robert ended up in his bed of blood.

This all evoked that dream for Ned.But note every element took place at different places at different times.

It's like GRRM poking fun.

He pretty much threw that in readers faces..

 

[Brad Stark]

If Lyanna wasn't at the TOJ and the KG were, Ned would be happy to let the KG die of old age without surrendering.

[Black Crow]

7 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

If Lyanna wasn't at the TOJ and the KG were, Ned would be happy to let the KG die of old age without surrendering.

Ned basically asked them to surrender but instead they fought. As I said earlier, that's what the conversation was about. At no point did Ned ask where's my sister or say release her and we can all walk away from here.

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

I am still reluctant to paint a picture of Rhaegar as someone who would kidnap Lyann because they were desperately in love or that he had some dark purpose in fulfilling a prophecy. 

We know very little of course, but an infatuation by Rhaegar need not be reciprocated.

Again we know nothing about the abduction, although I find suggestions that it occurred at or near the Inn at the Crossroads to be plausible.

However Lyanna did not simply disappear as the Lord Stark's daughter did. No-one knew that Bael had plucked her until she returned. It was a mystery.

Lyanna is known to have been kidnapped.

This means there were witnesses who saw what happened, whether they were members of her escort or innocent travellers. They told a story of an abduction, which for all we know might have been a bloody one, not of a runaway bride laughing as she galloped off with her true love.