Is The Concept Of The Night's Watch Obsolete?

[Nowy Tends]

24 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

 Also , House Marsh is sworn to House Frey. Tells you something.

No, House Marsh is a vassal house of the Neck, sworn to House Reed.

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

There is a ton of debate over whether Stannis knows about Melisandre's trick or not.  While I agree I don't think Stannis knows, there is plenty of evidence in ADWD from which it could be inferred that Stannis knows exactly what Melisandre did and that it was ultimately his decision.

And? Jon doesn't know anything that has led him to believe this endeavor is being done with Stannis's blessing all he does know is that Stannis had condemned Mance Rayder and instead executed someone else. 

Jon not informing the brotherhood and Stannis of his discovery ultimately was grossly irresponsible given his position of lord commander.

6 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

What part about Ramsay's marriage with a fake "Arya" is lawful?  The whole marriage is an unlawful sham.

Far as Jon knows, Arya has wed(said the oaths) Ramsey in front of witnesses and bedded her. That all it  would make her his wife-Jon doesn't know about the sceme as far as he and really most of anyone could know Arya Stark is the wife of Ramsey Bolton. 

No one could prove otherwise, even if they had suspicions(which they'd obviously will) about the validity of this girl's identity, so the Boltons  could very well  use the pretext of Jon having sent the mass murderer to fetch Ramsey's bride as reason enough to simply execute the man and all the wildling refugees. 

Jon should know he could not keep Arya's presence a secret; someone is going to remember a preteen girl who looks like Jon having come to castle black, and should word get out Ramsey would have the perfect excuse in taking Jon's head and destroy all his plans to prepare the wall. The risk was far to great for Jon to have the opportunity to play a good big brother.

 

6 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Except as I just said above and I reproduced the exact quote earlier in this thread, the Old Bear came to the exact same conclusion Jon did independently of Jon.  I don't think it is remotely out of the question that had the Old Bear survived the trip back to Castle Black, he may have attempted some kind of peace negotiations with Mance and the wildlings.  Second, are Flint and Norrey not of the North?  They are probably some of the oldest of the old-school Northmen who hate the wildlings and live geographically the closest to them, and even they are impressed with Jon when he reveals to them that he got Tormund to agree to give him hostages

Jeor agreed the ice-zombies were the true enemy of the Watch; Jon himself, does not think Jeor would be in support of letting in 10,000s wildling refugees in however.  

6 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Again, define "lawful" and why any of that term would apply to Ramsay and anything to do with the Boltons in general, and more specifically Ramsay's sham marriage to "Arya"?  What part of any of this is "lawful?"  Was breaking all "laws" of hospitality to murder Robb Stark "lawful?"  How about being "legitimized" by a bastard child with no legal claim to the Iron Throne?  Was that "lawful"?  Has any of Ramsay's behavior over the course of the series been "lawful"?  You want to focus on the "renegade lord commander" b

Ramsey is bad mmk. Now having said that, feeling hate/fear/disgust towards Ramsey does not mean the north in general are going to be as keen to defend or avenge Jon should Ramsey come down to execute this "renegade lord commander" whose allowing the people he's supposed to be keeping out in, especially he seems to have made the first provocation against house Bolton. Arya is a lady of theirs now; almost  no ones going to risk their family being flayed (assuming of course the  Boltons had beaten Stannis) for the fact Jon(who again isn't doing his job in many of their eyes).

[talvikorppi]

1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

No, House Marsh is a vassal house of the Neck, sworn to House Reed.

Ah, OK, I stand corrected. My bad. I thought house Marsh was sworn to the Freys, Bowen Marsh's attititude towards the crannogmen - house Reed being preeminent - just seems like the general Frey attitude. Maybe Bowen Marsh just wants to identify with who he perceives to be "winners", the Lannisters and the Freys.

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

By the letter of the law, Mance should have died. However, the realities of the situation meant that Mance was still immensely useful.

The whole point of the books when they are discussing the wielding of power, is that it's never clear cut. Jon made plenty of mistakes as Lord Commander, but he faced hard choices and did his best to do the right thing, which is all can be asked of anyone in my view. You can pick apart his decisions, but they weren't made out of self-interest or cynicism, but instead they were the product of an earnest young man trying to do the right thing, and sometimes failing.

If Jon were to spare Mance to keep the wildlings in check again that's one thing, such a thing is critical for Jon's plans to prepare the watch; no matter how one might feel about them he'd be letting Mance skirt justice in persuence to these goals, for the greater good of the watch and the realm; but Jon when Melisandre introduces Mance having switched with Rattleskirt Mance is now useless for anything but saving Arya. He can't be used as a figure head leader for the wildlings he'd be discovered and Stannis would be forced to give him an execution all over again; he does not have any more information to give Jon in relation to the threat-or at least Jon doesn't think he does.

[Varysblackfyre321]

I think I've evolved slightly on this issue. How about a special coin package  towards families of members who join the watch voluntary? I don't see temporary recruitment being applicable still but perhaps that along with a better marketing campaign could drum more support.

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Rowan said that they didn't kill LW in  front of the weirwood tree, and followers of old gods would never lie in front of it.

Tell that to Mance-men lie in gods name and the most holy of places all the time. 

[Kandrax]

9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Tell that to Mance-men lie in gods name and the most holy of places all the time. 

When?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

17 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

Sorry to butt in without reading most of the argy-bargy but one point in my disappeared post from a few days ago was about the NW vow and how it seems to come in two parts. The stuff about not taking wives, no lands etc. seems different from the poetic core of the vow. "I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men."

This was the part Sam had to recite to pass the Black Gate. It prpbably is the original, Long Night -era oath. No references to not holding lands or having families etc. 

Just a thought.

Excellent point, thank you.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

13 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Far as Jon knows, Arya has wed(said the oaths) Ramsey in front of witnesses and bedded her. That all it  would make her his wife-Jon doesn't know about the sceme as far as he and really most of anyone could know Arya Stark is the wife of Ramsey Bolton. 

 He believes Arya has attempted to escape. He obviously knows that she was wedded against her will, to men who conspired to murder their family.

[kissdbyfire]

13 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

he does not have any more information to give Jon in relation to the threat-or at least Jon doesn't think he does.

In my last reply to you I provided the quote that disproves this claim. Should I post it again?

Here you go:

ADwD, Jon I

“I know that,” Stannis said, unhappily. “I have spent hours speaking with the man. He knows much and more of our true enemy, and there is cunning in him, I’ll grant you. Even if he were to renounce his kingship, though, the man remains an oathbreaker. Suffer one deserter to live, and you encourage others to desert. No. Laws should be made of iron, not of pudding. Mance Rayder’s life is forfeit by every law of the Seven Kingdoms.”
“The law ends at the Wall, Your Grace. You could make good use of Mance.”

[Varysblackfyre321]

38 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

In my last reply to you I provided the quote that disproves this claim. Should I post it again?

Here you go:

ADwD, Jon I

“I know that,” Stannis said, unhappily. “I have spent hours speaking with the man. He knows much and more of our true enemy, and there is cunning in him, I’ll grant you. Even if he were to renounce his kingship, though, the man remains an oathbreaker. Suffer one deserter to live, and you encourage others to desert. No. Laws should be made of iron, not of pudding. Mance Rayder’s life is forfeit by every law of the Seven Kingdoms.”
“The law ends at the Wall, Your Grace. You could make good use of Mance.”

No you didn't. You're showing a quote to which Stannis  himself saying he suspects Mance may be withholding more information about the enemy than he's letting on; Jon does not try to refute, or vindicate Stannis's thoughts. The reason Jon gives for why Mance would be valuable was because Mance could be used to keep the wildlings in check. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

 He believes Arya has attempted to escape. He obviously knows that she was wedded against her will, to men who conspired to murder their family.

So? Ramsey is still her husband as far as he knows and whatever squabbles they have with each other it is not his the lord commander's place to get himself involved in a dispute between members of the goveroring family of the north.  Let the Boltons and Stannis fight over her, it's not Jon's buisness on whether the new lady of the Bolton clan is happy with her marriage, especially if getting involved runs the risks of putting the Watch and it's mission in hot water.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So? Ramsey is still her husband as far as he knows and whatever squabbles they have with each other it is not his the lord commander's place to get himself involved in a dispute between members of the goveroring family of the north.  Let the Boltons and Stannis fight over her, it's not Jon's buisness on whether the new lady of the Bolton clan is happy with her marriage, especially if it runs the risks of putting the Watch and it's mission in hot water.

That comment betrays a shocking lack of empathy mate. If your sister is captured and forced into an arranged marriage, you don't give a damn about whether it's technically legal, you try to save her.

You could argue that Jon shouldn't do that because his NW vows preclude that, but I think most of us would probably fail that test. If I'm in Jon's position, I'm doing what he did.

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That comment betrays a shocking lack of empathy mate. If your sister is captured and forced into an arranged marriage, you don't give a damn about whether it's technically legal, you try to save her.

You could argue that Jon shouldn't do that because his NW vows preclude that, but I think most of us would probably fail that test. If I'm in Jon's position, I'm doing what he did.

No I'm arguing, he shouldn't do this because he'd be putting at risk the thousands of refugees he's allowed in, the brotherhood itself and, Jon's plans to prepare the wall for the white walkers. Oaths, are secondary in the equation. One girl's safety and happiness is not worth it. Jon's mission is higher than that.This is a recurring thing in the series; one person being unable to put aside their personal feelings, for the greater good. No one would chastize Jaimie for stopping the burning of Kings landing even though it'd be ordained by the king. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

24 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No one would chastize Jaimie for stopping the burning of Kings landing even though it'd be ordained by the king. 

Excellent point. 

I suppose my argument is that Jon can be forgiven for his transgression. If we can agree on that, we can move on.

[Nowy Tends]

45 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

One girl's safety and happiness is not worth it.

It's much more than a girl's safety (and no one cares about "happiness" in this world/context), it's about the usurpation/misappropriation of the Stark name to strengthen the position of the Boltons in Winterfell… not to mention the threat to attack the NW…

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

It's much more than a girl's safety (and no one cares about "happiness" in this world/context), it's about the usurpation/misappropriation of the Stark name to strengthen the position of the Boltons in Winterfell… not to mention the threat to attack the NW…

 If Stannis fails(and there is a good chance for that happening), the Boltons are going to be the most powerful force in the north at the moment; their rule being secure, is not something that would hurt the watch; hell the alternative is another mini-civil war to displace the Boltons and that would turn everyone's attention towards each other at a time where unity may be critical; like it or not Jon needs to make himself not seem a threat and try to make it so that the Boltons know about the threat. Jon was worried about Arya his sister, not Arya a daughter of house stark his worry and wants to get her away as far as possible from the Boltons not from idiolizing House Stark and/or Eddard Stark but mostly out of the love of a teenage boy has to his favorite sister. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

idiolizement

No offence bro, but that's not a word. 

[Julia H.]

On 2018. 03. 01. at 8:30 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Sure, Tywin was the Hand of the King.  That same king should stop Tywin from what he was about to do, meddle with the affairs of the watch.  But unfortunately, there was nobody around Tywin who had the fine morals of Bowen Marsh to tell him so.  In this regards, the Men in Black who assassinated Jon, are better people than the ones around Tywin.  

 

... and that says a lot about the men around Tywin. 

On 2018. 03. 01. at 11:51 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Mance is no longer the leader of anything and Jon did not decide to spare him for a higher purpose other than he may be the key to Arya's salvation. Mance, half-heartily broke his oaths, and led an invasion that killed many of the men who'd he'd called his brothers. Yes he tried to save thousands. But, the way he actually went about it was mostly due to his zeal to keep the anarchal way of life of the wildlings he'd become intoxicated by. Jon may have grown to respect Mance, as a person but it is Jon's duty, to insure the man is executed for his actions, not simply let him go to save the sister he swore he owed no alligence to out of some familial affection. He's not acting like a true leader, as much as he's acting like a good big brother. Janos Slynt though he disobeyed an order, and repeatedly and mocked any attempt by Jon to give him a chance to repent and to avoid punishment did only that; disobey an order. For this Jon, chose the chopping block as punishment, not exactly because he thought it was the most fair option of disipline or the only one such a sin could call for, but the most practical given the risk Slynt posed to Jon's regime of Lord commandeder. Mance literally led a war against the watch and is responsible for the deaths of plenty of the men Jon would call brother.  

Technically Mance wasn't the Night's Watch's captive. He had been captured by the Stannis army, and Stannis claimed him (as well as Val) as his own prisoner. Rightfully or not, on the Wall, Stannis played the King, and had the army to match his claim (as far as the Watch was concerned). He had also literally saved the Watch and consequently the realm from a major wildling invasion. The only thing Jon as LC could do about Mance is to advise Stannis on what to with the man, and he tried to persuade Stannis to spare Mance because of his potential usefulness long before saving Arya occurred to Jon.

As for whether Jon should have told Stannis: When Jon found out that Mance was alive, Stannis was far away, and for all Jon knew, Stannis might have known it all along. Melisandre actually implied that Stannis knew. It may have been a lie, but this was what she told Jon:

Quote

"And he owes you his very life."

"Me?" Snow sounded startled.

"Who else, my lord? Only his life's blood could pay for his crimes, your laws said, and Stannis Baratheon is not a man to go against the law … but as you said so sagely, the laws of men end at the Wall." 

 

Why would Melisandre mention Stannis here if not to imply that he had agreed? In addition, Stannis had given"Rattleshirt" to Jon as a "gift" before leaving the Wall, which, in my opinion, also indicates he probably knew who "Rattleshirt" was. Stannis was aware of what Jon thought of the real Rattleshirt and also of what Jon thought of Mance. In light of that, giving Mance to Jon as a gift makes sense, giving the real Rattleshirt to him does not. 

At this point, Mance is certainly not King-beyond-the-Wall any more, but he still has the knowledge about the Others as a (former) leader who has faced them, which can mean vital information for the Watch if he can be persuaded to share it. In addition, yes, he may find Arya for Jon, so that Jon could keep his vow and remain on the Wall without involving any actual brothers in the search. 

Quote

"You wanted a way to save your little sister and still hold fast to the honor that means so much to you, to the vows you swore before your wooden god." She pointed with a pale finger. "There he stands, Lord Snow. Arya's deliverance." 

As for Slynt, I imagine all military leaders would deal with such blatant disobedience in the same way as Jon, especially when it comes from someone with extensive experience in a military organization, not from a half-witted peasant boy, who has no idea how things work in an army.  If Slynt could get away with it, why would any of the other brothers obey any order that is against their liking? Alliser Thorne, for one, was clearly paying close attention to what was going to happen to Slynt.

On 2018. 03. 02. at 2:02 AM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Jon doesn't execute Janos because of his transgressions, but because he is a cancer that needs removing. Again - good leadership. He recognises that Slynt is a threat to his regime, and puts the man in a position where he either has to get in line or get crushed. Jon knows the distinction between men who don't like him but are worth working on, and a man like Slynt, who needs to be taken care of immediately and without mercy. 

Exactly.

One more thing on the difference between Mance and Slynt:

Slynt had been sent to the Wall as punishment, an an alternative to execution for his crimes. He knew that, so it was his duty to obey and be happy to be alive. He had already had a military career, so he knew what the job of a soldier involved. Refusing a command of his superior was in essence refusing to serve, which practically means he chose the other punishment. 

Mance, on the other hand, was a wildling child who was either saved or kidnapped by watchmen and brought up on the Wall to be one of them. He hadn't been sentenced for any crimes, yet, no alternatives were offered to him. As it happened, he simply was not cut out for the kind of discipline demanded by a regular army, so he quit in the only way that was possible for him: He returned to his own people, the wildlings. While in the NW, he was literally expected to kill his own people. I guess the wildling woman who saved his life and mended his cloak made him realize where he had originally belonged, and that was part of the reason why the cloak was so important to him.

With reference to the main question of this thread, I think it is wrong to ask and even to allow very young boys to commit for life and make very serious sacrifices for life before they have a chance to truly understand both what they are choosing and what they are giving up forever. I'm totally with Benjen Stark on this.

On 2018. 03. 01. at 11:51 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He pledged to divorce any loyalty he has for his family or any other entity for the watch. The Starks now being in jepordary, matter no more in regards to his duties to follow his oath, than if they were perfectly fine. No one is asking him to cut the Starks throats in front of a weretree to please the gods; but to simply do what we'd do for the Starks if they were perfectly fine; nothing. Do not try to save them from their fate if they face dire threats, do not try to condemn them, their general wellfare is not Jon's preoagative

And I think we, the readers, are meant to question whether this, in fact, is possible, whether you can sign away your individual conscience, your individual responsibility, whether refusing to save someone you can save here and now, someone you alone can save, in the name of the "greater good" is really the right thing to do. Charity begins at home. If you are unwilling to save the one who is closest to you and is in direct mortal danger, with no one else to rely on but you, you are probably not the right person to save all humanity, no matter how closely you are able to follow the rules. 

On 2018. 03. 01. at 11:51 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

That does not mean he's in no way abusing his authority when he allows Mance to escape justice without there being some sort of practical value towards the watch(for instance keeping the wildlings in check already at the wall in check and urging the rest of the people to seek amnesty rather than war), for personal grievances.  

 

Mance knows much more about the Others and about the Far North than anyone in the Seven Kingdoms. Jon wants to unite all men who can fight against the Others, and Mance is deeply invested in that problem. Besides, Mance has already shown good leadership qualities - he managed to unite all the different wildling groups for one purpose. Even if Mance is not a leader right now, he still has those skills and that knowledge. Killing him would be wasting all those resources. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

No offence bro, but that's not a word. 

Editing it now*