Gun Control: The Tree Of Liberty Must Be Refreshed From Time To Time With The Blood Of Children And Innocents

[Week]

1 minute ago, Esmenet said:

Those are all the same link. 

Color me shocked!

@Kalbear Exactly. Thank you.

Just now, Esmenet said:

From 2012???? That was 6 years ago...quite outdated imo. 

It is a response to the nonsensical meme that you posted and still seem to think is accurate or relevant.

[Kalbear]

For instance, in West Virginia the murder rate per 100k is only 4.4, which sounds good until you compare it to New York (3.2), Washington State (2.7), or even New Jersey (4.2). California - despite having significantly larger population centers than West Virginia - only has a rate of 4.9. Only Illinois (8.0 and Michigan(6.0) fit anything close to the idea that gun violence is not stopped by high gun laws. 

 

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Esmenet said:

From 2012???? That was 6 years ago...quite outdated imo. 

Here's an article from 2018 discussing data from 2015 and 2016. Same conclusion. 

"Controlling for population size, most criminologists use the per 100,000 metric. By that standard, we found the United States ranked 94th.

When we counted only the countries for which the UN had 2015 data, the United States ranked 73rd. That’s still far from the top ten."

"The cities cited in the meme accounted for 1,568 of 17,250, or 9.1 percent, of all homicides reported to the FBI in 2016, Tom Kovandzic, a criminologist at the University of Texas, Dallas, calculated for us. And without those cities, the homicide rate (per capita) would only decline by 7.73 percent, or from 5.34 to 4.93."

[Esmenet]

4 minutes ago, Week said:

Color me shocked!

@Kalbear Exactly. Thank you.

It is a response to the nonsensical meme that you posted and still seem to think is accurate or relevant.

what meme did I post? I posted a link to many articles on the subject on one page of such articles to back up those claims.

[Week]

5 minutes ago, Esmenet said:

what meme did I post? I posted a link to many articles on the subject on one page of such articles to back up those claims.

This is where you started.

On 5/24/2018 at 12:59 PM, Esmenet said:

I just seen a post about the murder/crime rate in America. It was a few days ago and I probably can't find it. Plus, it was on Facebook (why I'm asking here as someone might debunk or prove), that America is in the Top 5 in the world, but if you exclude D.C., Chicago, St. Louis and two other cities I can't recall, then we are 183 out of 190 some. All these cities mentioned have very strict gun laws. 

First, is this true? Secondly, would this if true, be a huge tell that gun laws do not decrease violence? 

Now, I am no Trumpett, but id like to know if this is true, and if so, what would decrease the violence in those cities. I know all of them are poverty stricken and that adds to the violence. But, people, we need an answer.

[Esmenet]

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Here's an article from 2018 discussing data from 2015 and 2016. Same conclusion. 

"Controlling for population size, most criminologists use the per 100,000 metric. By that standard, we found the United States ranked 94th.

When we counted only the countries for which the UN had 2015 data, the United States ranked 73rd. That’s still far from the top ten."

"The cities cited in the meme accounted for 1,568 of 17,250, or 9.1 percent, of all homicides reported to the FBI in 2016, Tom Kovandzic, a criminologist at the University of Texas, Dallas, calculated for us. And without those cities, the homicide rate (per capita) would only decline by 7.73 percent, or from 5.34 to 4.93."

Fair enough. I can admit to being wrong. But, my question Kalbear, if we are so low on this list, why do so many say that we are so much worse than other countries?

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Esmenet said:

what meme did I post? I posted a link to many articles on the subject on one page of such articles to back up those claims.

So here's the thing, MSJ - I posted literally the same link you did. Go back and look, if you like. What you took from that article is that gun violence in inner cities is higher (per capita this is not generally true, and the article says that), and that the murder rate is on the rise via guns (this is true, but does not correlate with a higher rate in cities). 

What you then did is equate cities with inner cities (no data there at all), equate inner cities with gang violence (again, not specifically related and certainly not in those articles), and used absolutely ZERO data to get to anything you were talking about. 

Similarly you stated that Chicago has the highest gun laws, which again, the article states flat out:
"We’ve previously rated the claim that Chicago has the strictest gun laws Pants on Fire."

and
"

The other lie in this claim is that all five of the named cities have stringent gun regulation. Louisiana, Michigan and Missouri would be very surprised to hear that!" said Philip Cook, a sociologist at Duke University.

The states didn’t impress the Giffords Law Center, a pro-gun control group. Missouri ranked 48th, Louisiana 43rd, and Michigan 16th on a scale that gives higher rankings to restricted gun ownership and use."

 

So here's the real thing, MSJ: nothing you've posted backs up your claim, not even a little bit, save the actual meme which was under refute. 

[Pebble thats Stubby]

propaganda

[Esmenet]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

So here's the thing, MSJ - I posted literally the same link you did. Go back and look, if you like. What you took from that article is that gun violence in inner cities is higher (per capita this is not generally true, and the article says that), and that the murder rate is on the rise via guns (this is true, but does not correlate with a higher rate in cities). 

What you then did is equate cities with inner cities (no data there at all), equate inner cities with gang violence (again, not specifically related and certainly not in those articles), and used absolutely ZERO data to get to anything you were talking about. 

Similarly you stated that Chicago has the highest gun laws, which again, the article states flat out:
"We’ve previously rated the claim that Chicago has the strictest gun laws Pants on Fire."

and
"

The other lie in this claim is that all five of the named cities have stringent gun regulation. Louisiana, Michigan and Missouri would be very surprised to hear that!" said Philip Cook, a sociologist at Duke University.

The states didn’t impress the Giffords Law Center, a pro-gun control group. Missouri ranked 48th, Louisiana 43rd, and Michigan 16th on a scale that gives higher rankings to restricted gun ownership and use."

 

So here's the real thing, MSJ: nothing you've posted backs up your claim, not even a little bit, save the actual meme which was under refute. 

Again, fair enough. I did ask that if it was wrong, then why such outrage that we have it so much worse than other countries? Please quit calling me MSJ. I am not. If thats what you need to think for some reason, which I have no clue about, well keep to yourself please. Simply not true.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Esmenet said:

Fair enough. I can admit to being wrong. But, my question Kalbear, if we are so low on this list, why do so many say that we are so much worse than other countries?

Because our rates of gun violence are absurdly high among developed nations. We don't typically want to compare ourselves to places like Somalia or El Salvador as we assume we're better than that - but we are horrible compared to other developed nations. As this NPR article indicates, we're 9th in the world in socioeconomic status (or were 9th, it's fallen) but 31st overall, and is 4 times higher than what would be expected. 

And if you took out those 5 cities entirely from the US, we would still be 3.8 times higher than what would be expected. 

[Esmenet]

2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Because our rates of gun violence are absurdly high among developed nations. We don't typically want to compare ourselves to places like Somalia or El Salvador as we assume we're better than that - but we are horrible compared to other developed nations. As this NPR article indicates, we're 9th in the world in socioeconomic status (or were 9th, it's fallen) but 31st overall, and is 4 times higher than what would be expected. 

And if you took out those 5 cities entirely from the US, we would still be 3.8 times higher than what would be expected. 

Ok, I said that I can admit to being wrong. But, I still think other reforms, such as education, helping to create jobs and such would dramatically lower all of that. In other words, gun control alone is not the only problem.

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Esmenet said:

Ok, I said that I can admit to being wrong. But, I still think other reforms, such as education, helping to create jobs and such would dramatically lower all of that. In other words, gun control alone is not the only problem.

Tell that to the affluent kids at Parkland high school. 

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Esmenet said:

Ok, I said that I can admit to being wrong. But, I still think other reforms, such as education, helping to create jobs and such would dramatically lower all of that. In other words, gun control alone is not the only problem.

Tell that to kindergartners who are learning a song about how to do the lockdown.

https://twitter.com/mashable/status/1004810072411828229

[Esmenet]

I quite understand that. I just don't see how we, as a nation, cannot find a means to keep guns out of schools, its baffling quite frankly. I mean we can keep them out of the airports across our country. Why not schools. It just blows my mind to be honest. Thats a real important subject to me, because I have children. Their school has done alot to make it alot safer place. Only one entrance to schools. They have called the cops in a few incidents I know, about shady characters in the vicinity. I just can't understand how this isn't the top priority of every school in the nation. 

I am totally against the dumb was view that more guns would stop these shootings. That's the B.S. gun-fanatic view, which I find to be ludicrous, of a scale of magnitude that boggles the mind.

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, Esmenet said:

I quite understand that. I just don't see how we, as a nation, cannot find a means to keep guns out of schools, its baffling quite frankly. I mean we can keep them out of the airports across our country.

Honestly, we can't do that, either. TSA has failed repeatedly when tested. There have been two shootings at airports in the last year. 

7 minutes ago, Esmenet said:

Why not schools. It just blows my mind to be honest. Thats a real important subject to me, because I have children. Their school has done alot to make it alot safer place. Only one entrance to schools. They have called the cops in a few incidents I know, about shady characters in the vicinity. I just can't understand how this isn't the top priority of every school in the nation. 

It is one of if not the top priority in the nation for schools. The problem is that they cannot arrest people, they cannot take guns away from fathers who would give them back to their children, they cannot enact new laws or legislation. Why you're putting the onus of bad governance on schools is precisely the fucked up reason we're here, because every other country in the world got rid of their guns when school shootings happened, but in the US you're wondering how schools can solve it.

Note also, amusingly enough, that schools are considered one of the safest places in the community in so called inner cities, and almost no school shootings happen in places like Chicago - but they are increasingly happening in places like rural Appalachia. 

 

[Tywin et al.]

46 minutes ago, Esmenet said:

Those are all the same link. 

1. He did that on purpose because it appears that you aren’t reading the links people are posting to refute your arguments.

2. People aren’t going to take you seriously until you clean up your spelling and grammar.

3. Maybe you aren’t a racist, but you have some racially insensitive things. And you seem to be unaware of that. Most racists don't think they're racists. I'd suggest signing off for a bit and engage yourself in some serious introspection. Take to heart what people have told you and reevaluate your position. 

[Esmenet]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

1. He did that on purpose because it appears that you aren’t reading the links people are posting to refute your arguments.

2. People aren’t going to take you seriously until you clean up your spelling and grammar.

3. Maybe you aren’t a racist, but you have some racially insensitive things. And you seem to be unaware of that. Most racists don't think they're racists. I'd suggest signing off for a bit and engage yourself in some serious introspection. Take to heart what people have told you and reevaluate your position. 

Buddy, not a racist. Not even close. Maybe some things said, might come across that way. But, it was not my intention. Sorry grammatical errors, just posting quickly and have been doing so in multiple threads. As for you, genitalia was quite the grammatical error in your dating thread post, lol. Ive giving plenty of introspection, admitting that I might be wrong, and having no problem admitting that. Really, being taking seriously is of no importance, because I think when so many here are entrenched in their views, maybe I could say the same to so many here. 

[Esmenet]

And, I did read the links. I said i could be wrong and that i would look into it more deeply. Thanks for the advice.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Lol can't believe I didn't realize this was MSJ.  Welcome back.  But really man no need for sockpuppets wtf.  And it must be difficult to tread the line of "I'm a non-racist anti-gun liberal but..." and then defend a bunch of arguments antithetical to your core values.  Kudos!

[Zorral]

Arms and the Woman -- The 2nd Amendment isn't for all US citizens. Long piece in the NY Times Magazine.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/07/us/muslim-gun-owners-america.html?
 

Quote

 

 . . . Gun ownership was the preserve of white men since before the nation’s founding, when the colonies prohibited women and slaves from owning firearms and banned sales of guns to Native Americans. As the right to own a gun expanded, so did tensions. After armed members of the Black Panthers occupied the State Capitol in 1967, California passed a law banning the carrying of loaded firearms in public.

The American Muslims we interviewed recently said their decision to own guns was simply a matter of exercising their hard-earned rights.

One of them is Nezar Hamze, a deputy sheriff in Broward County, Fla., who is also active in the Florida chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a national civil rights group.

“I’d rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it,” he said of the Second Amendment . . . .

 

Quote

 

. . . . Gun ranges and gun shops in several states have declared themselves “Muslim-free zones.”

One gun range owner in Arkansas, Jan Morgan, gained national attention in 2014 when her business was one of the first to declare a ban on Muslims. (She used her newfound prominence to run for governor, losing in the Republican primary last month.)

In Florida, a gun store and range that banned Muslims was sued for discrimination in 2015. The suit was dropped, but the company still sells bumper stickers that proclaim it “Muslim-free.”

And in Oklahoma, a federal judge is considering a lawsuit filed by a Muslim man, an Army reservist who was turned away from a gun range in 2015. Before kicking him out, employees at the range demanded to know whether he was part of a “jihad,” according to the lawsuit . . . .