Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

LiveFirstDieLater

The Three-Eyed-Crow is Old Nan, not Bloodraven

Recommended Posts

I was just horsing around with anagrams and Melisandre is can be rearranged to spell "mislearned"

meli  can also mean "lie, falsehood, untruth" that combined with the "sandor" = "helper of men" or "protector of men" then Meli-sandor = "false protector of men" which fits right in with her being a charlatan and "mislearned" 

Melinae is also the Latin for badger, which could mean "marked by a badge" (red eyes?), "huckster" "to annoy or pester" or " A crew of desperate villains who robbed near rivers, into which they threw the bodies of those they murdered."

That last one caught my attention because the Isle of Ravens at Oldtown is described similarly,

Quote

"The Ravenry is the oldest building at the Citadel," Alleras told him, as they crossed over the slow-flowing waters of the Honeywine. "In the Age of Heroes it was supposedly the stronghold of a pirate lord who sat here robbing ships as they came down the river."

It is even on the Honeywine, and mel = honey. 

 

 

Quote

On an unrelated note this passage appears word for word in both Feast Samwell I and Dance Jon II

That can't be a coincidence right?

It’s about the unreliability of the histories we’ve been told

But Sam recited the same exact paragraph by rote, like a robot, and Jon interrupted him in the exact same way.  It was like a glitch in the Matrix.

 

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I still don’t by the time travel, and would much prefer if the old tales are simply reflected again instead of people hopping back and forth.

Have you read Georges' short story Under Siege?  It has mutant time travelers who go back to important moments in history and occupy the brains of pivotal characters to alter history.  That is exactly what I said Bran was doing before I knew George wrote that.  (It is also a plot point from the The Mote in God's Eye)

It's not people, just Bran.  I think Bran and the weirwood are locked in a time loop, he keeps making changes to the timeline to beat the weirwood, each Brandon was him making a new change to the timeline (and changes are accumulative), but nothing has worked so far, because the weirwood is nearly unbeatable.  Its going to work this time though, he has finally figured it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/23/2018 at 3:54 PM, Megorova said:

Imagine that you have read TWOW, and in there it was revealed, that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, and that she's also the 3EC, what's your reaction?

My reaction would be "Why did she tell Bran her mother named her Brynden?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with Lynn that 3EC is a man of the Night's Watch. You know who was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and is heavily associated with ravens/crows? Bloodraven, aka Odin Treesitter. And since he is 1) not dead, and 2) still protecting the realms of men, Bloodraven is still in the NW. 

Don't have the app, but I've been told it specifically names Bloodraven as the 3EC.

Things we know about 3EC:

  • contacted Bran while he was in a coma
  • obsessed with flying
  • been looking for Bran aka "the one" for a long time (to me this indicates Bran is not every single Brandon Stark in history)
  • prioritizes the future safety of Westeros above minor things like treasonous incest that would shift the balance of power in Westeros
  • took Bran on a trip and showed him impaled greendreamers who didn't fly, and what's in the Heart of Winter (scary stuff)
  • has been in contact with Jojen Reed for some time
  • may have contacted Euron Greyjoy, thinking he might be "the one"
     

Copied and pasted from the wiki, because I can't get to my copy of ACOK (chapter 16, if anyone wants to look it up).

Quote

While bannermen arrive at Winterfell for the harvest feast, Bran dreams of a weirwood with deep red eyes and a twisted wooden mouth, with the three-eyed crow in its branches.[4] Jojen Reed tells Bran that he dreamed of a winged wolf bound in chains, with a three-eyed crow chipping at its stone chains. Jojen reveals the crow has visited him in dreams since he was a child and that it can be found beyond the Wall.[5]

Jojen and Meera came to Winterfell to take Bran to 3EC so he can train, because "winter is coming."

Coldhands appears (with a flock of ravens/crows) to help get Bran safely to 3EC.

Jojen, Meera, and Coldhands take Bran to a cave where he meets Brynden/Bloodraven/Odin who trains him in things that will very likely lead to defeating the Others and the winter that is coming with them.

Brynden/Bloodraven/Odin promises Bran that he will fly.

Bran learns how to skinchange ravens/crows, which are heavily associated with...wait for it...Bloodraven, who is also a "crow" by virtue of being in the Night's Watch (and may be speaking through Mormont's raven).

Am I the only one who doesn't see a huge mystery here?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I agree with Lynn that 3EC is a man of the Night's Watch. You know who was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and is heavily associated with ravens/crows? Bloodraven, aka Odin Treesitter. And since he is 1) not dead, and 2) still protecting the realms of men, Bloodraven is still in the NW. 

Don't have the app, but I've been told it specifically names Bloodraven as the 3EC.

Things we know about 3EC:

  • contacted Bran while he was in a coma
  • obsessed with flying
  • been looking for Bran aka "the one" for a long time (to me this indicates Bran is not every single Brandon Stark in history)
  • prioritizes the future safety of Westeros above minor things like treasonous incest that would shift the balance of power in Westeros
  • took Bran on a trip and showed him impaled greendreamers who didn't fly, and what's in the Heart of Winter (scary stuff)
  • has been in contact with Jojen Reed for some time
  • may have contacted Euron Greyjoy, thinking he might be "the one"
     

Copied and pasted from the wiki, because I can't get to my copy of ACOK (chapter 16, if anyone wants to look it up).

Jojen and Meera came to Winterfell to take Bran to 3EC so he can train, because "winter is coming."

Coldhands appears (with a flock of ravens/crows) to help get Bran safely to 3EC.

Jojen, Meera, and Coldhands take Bran to a cave where he meets Brynden/Bloodraven/Odin who trains him in things that will very likely lead to defeating the Others and the winter that is coming with them.

Brynden/Bloodraven/Odin promises Bran that he will fly.

Bran learns how to skinchange ravens/crows, which are heavily associated with...wait for it...Bloodraven, who is also a "crow" by virtue of being in the Night's Watch (and may be speaking through Mormont's raven).

Am I the only one who doesn't see a huge mystery here?

I have the app. I just reviewed Brynden Rivers's entry, and there is no reference to the three-eyed crow. Nor does it specifically state that Bloodraven appeared to Bran as a three-eyed crow. He is referred to as the last greenseer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I have the app. I just reviewed Brynden Rivers's entry, and there is no reference to the three-eyed crow. Nor does it specifically state that Bloodraven appeared to Bran as a three-eyed crow. He is referred to as the last greenseer. 

Thanks for that. It's good to know for certain now.

But for the sake of asking, is there a separate entry from the three-eyed crow?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Thanks for that. It's good to know for certain now.

But for the sake of asking, is there a separate entry from the three-eyed crow?

Nope. Nor for the cave. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Testing these links. Hopefully they don’t take you someplace naughty, or naughtier. 

 

What app says about Brynden Rivers 

https://imgur.com/gallery/jZfbrXk

https://imgur.com/gallery/tZL6m9V

 

p.s. 

I always forget I have the app. 

p.p.s.

i know the app is only semi-semi-cannon. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

My reaction would be "Why did she tell Bran her mother named her Brynden?"

Cute...

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I agree with Lynn that 3EC is a man of the Night's Watch. You know who was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and is heavily associated with ravens/crows? Bloodraven, aka Odin Treesitter. And since he is 1) not dead, and 2) still protecting the realms of men, Bloodraven is still in the NW. 

He is still alive

We have no idea what he is doing, I don’t know why you think he’s protecting the realms of men. He didn’t even do that as hand of the king, he sent peasants back to lands which couldn’t support them, and ruled through a reign of terror.

But we do know he abandoned his post on the Wall... he even says he was “once” a crow... which of course implies he is no longer.

He WAS many things, now he is as we see him!

Quote

Don't have the app, but I've been told it specifically names Bloodraven as the 3EC.

Maybe they fixed it?

Quote

Things we know about 3EC:

  • contacted Bran while he was in a coma

Hard to debate, lol

Quote
  • obsessed with flying

Maybe, it certainly gets Bran to fly so he doesn’t die. Also showing him why he must live... But after that? It seems like the bird blinds him at the end of the falling dream, just after Bran fills his wings.

Quote
  • been looking for Bran aka "the one" for a long time (to me this indicates Bran is not every single Brandon Stark in history)

This is true of both Nan and Bloodraven, but I’m not sure we can know it’s true for the Three eyed crow without going through them.

Quote
  • prioritizes the future safety of Westeros above minor things like treasonous incest that would shift the balance of power in Westeros

What? Not sure if you mean Bloodraven, his crimes were a lot more than incest... he was sent to the wall for breaking guestright (oathbreaking) by killing his own kin.

Quote
  • took Bran on a trip and showed him impaled greendreamers who didn't fly, and what's in the Heart of Winter (scary stuff)

Bloodraven’s Lair sure seems like what Bran saw in the falling dream, the frozen Weirwoods flying up at him and the bones of dreamers impaired on their roots.

Quote
  • has been in contact with Jojen Reed for some time

Be careful, Jojen sees a vision of the three eyed crow, he doesn’t communicate with it... he makes assumptions when interpreting his visions just like Mel. He wasn’t even sure Bran was the winged wolf until after getting to Winterfell.

Jojen also says the Three Eyed Crow is North, after Nan is taken north to the Dreadfort... it’s not clear where the details like beyond the wall come from as he seems to be making it up as he goes along... when asked if there is there more than one three eyed crow? He answers, maybe he will find us...  

Quote
  • may have contacted Euron Greyjoy, thinking he might be "the one"

Maybe, it does sound like Euron had a falling dream. But we don’t know that the 3eC came to him, after all it’s a drowned crow on the shoulder of the man without a face in the ghost of highheart’s dream. Crowfood Umber has a crow come peck out his eye while he was asleep too and he bit his head off. Both men’s crows are dead.

Quote

Copied and pasted from the wiki, because I can't get to my copy of ACOK (chapter 16, if anyone wants to look it up).

We can go further into looking at what Jojen says... I don’t think it’s so clear to him or is what is his interpretation and what can be trusted. Sword without a hilt and all... he says north after Nan was taken to the Dreadfort and there is no explanation of the greendream telling us why he thinks they need to go beyond the wall.

Quote

Jojen and Meera came to Winterfell to take Bran to 3EC so he can train, because "winter is coming."

No... Jojen has a dream and Howland Reed sent them to Winterfell. Jojen wasn’t even sure Bran was the wolf till after they arrived.

Quote

Coldhands appears (with a flock of ravens/crows) to help get Bran safely to 3EC.

Ravens... not crows... they are clearly distinct. 

And remember the Nights King Story? 

Quote

and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will.

And of course Bran has suspicions:

Quote

The ranger wore the black of the Night's Watch, but what if he was not a man at all? What if he was some monster, taking them to the other monsters to be devoured?

And Coldhands has Sam swear not to tell anyone... so there are no seekers to find Bran’s bones... Nothing about that sounds benevolent.

Quote

Jojen, Meera, and Coldhands take Bran to a cave where he meets Brynden/Bloodraven/Odin who trains him in things that will very likely lead to defeating the Others and the winter that is coming with them.

This is very storybook, Bran goes to meet a wise old wizard who can fix his legs...

Odin is also called Oathbreaker...

Bloodraven’s Lair is the Heart of Winter.

Quote

Brynden/Bloodraven/Odin promises Bran that he will fly.

He has already flown...

Quote

Bran learns how to skinchange ravens/crows, which are heavily associated with...wait for it...Bloodraven, who is also a "crow" by virtue of being in the Night's Watch (and may be speaking through Mormont's raven)

Ravens are not the same as crows. Bloodraven is no longer a crow, by his own admission. 

Not a big fan of the App, but love the fact that it uses “absconds” now to describe Bloodraven’s disappearance. Lol

Quote

Am I the only one who doesn't see a huge mystery here?

I don’t think there is any doubt that you are not the only one to swallow the story hook line and sinker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Their rooftops had been his secret places, and the crows atop the broken tower his special friends.

Quote

There were crows' nests atop the broken tower, where no one ever went but him, and sometimes he filled his pockets with corn before he climbed up there and the crows ate it right out of his hand.

Quote

He liked the birds: the crows in the broken tower, the tiny little sparrows that nested in cracks between the stones, the ancient owl that slept in the dusty loft above the old armory. Bran knew them all.

Quote

But no one ever got up to the jagged top of the structure now except for Bran and the crows.

Crows are Bran's spirit animal, his name means "crow" and they are his special pets.  They eat right out of his hands.  "A feast for crows" is a kenning for "a battlefield littered with corpses"  Bran wants to feed the crows.

Quote

He wanted to climb the broken tower and feed corn to the crows.

 

Brandon the Builder helped raise the Wall, and the Watch are nicknamed crows--because Bran gave them that name.  There word crow is used 400 times, and I haven't combed through all of them, but I think the only other person who speaks positively of crows is Euron.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Crows are Bran's spirit animal, his name means "crow" and they are his special pets.  They eat right out of his hands.  "A feast for crows" is a kenning for "a battlefield littered with corpses"  Bran wants to feed the crows.

Bran gives the crows seeds, and the 3eC his metaphorical seed... he wakes up and will never have children.

9 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Brandon the Builder helped raise the Wall, and the Watch are nicknamed crows--because Bran gave them that name.  There word crow is used 400 times, and I haven't combed through all of them, but I think the only other person who speaks positively of crows is Euron.

Some variation on the crow calling the raven black is in every book and D&E.

I believe there are crows and ravens, representing factions, among both Men and Children. 

The Maesters and the Nights Watch were founded at the same time and seem to have similar vows, for life, no family, service etc.

Quote

 

When an acolyte has completed his chain, he can swear a maester's vows. The night before, the acolytes must stand a vigil in a vault with a black glass candle. The acolytes are not allowed any other source of light, and has to spend the night in total darkness unless he can light the candle.[8]

When an acolyte of noble birth takes his vows and dons his chain, he puts aside his House name.[16] He swears sacred vows, promising to hold no lands or lordships,[25] and to be celibate

 

And the link Maester earn for Ravenry? Black Iron, just like the Grand Maester’s keys, and is hated by the Others.

They are the Ravens and the Nights Watch are Crows.

Marwyn could well be Mormonts Raven...

And the Maesters, housed in the south, but with a member placed in every castle in Westeros, could well the the sleepers, whom the Nights Watch are sworn to wake. Good thing Sam has the Horn.

As for the Children, I still expect they are no more united then Men... Ravens are those living North of the Wall, and Crows are those who still keep the pact and live south of the Wall, namely in the Gods Eye.

An interesting searchoficeandfire is “crow raven”, it shows they do not get along...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Bran gives the crows seeds, and the 3eC his metaphorical seed... he wakes up and will never have children.

Some variation on the crow calling the raven black is in every book and D&E.

I believe there are crows and ravens, representing factions, among both Men and Children. 

The Maesters and the Nights Watch were founded at the same time and seem to have similar vows, for life, no family, service etc.

And the link Maester earn for Ravenry? Black Iron, just like the Grand Maester’s keys, and is hated by the Others.

They are the Ravens and the Nights Watch are Crows.

Marwyn could well be Mormonts Raven...

And the Maesters, housed in the south, but with a member placed in every castle in Westeros, could well the the sleepers, whom the Nights Watch are sworn to wake. Good thing Sam has the Horn.

As for the Children, I still expect they are no more united then Men... Ravens are those living North of the Wall, and Crows are those who still keep the pact and live south of the Wall, namely in the Gods Eye.

An interesting searchoficeandfire is “crow raven”, it shows they do not get along...

Genuinely curious here: do you think the majority of the readership see any real difference between a crow and a raven or see them as similar, if not essentially the same?  It seems a rather thin reed to hang anything momentous off...

After all, as you point out yourself "the crow calling the raven black" is a common saying.  It's used to point out that the behaviour of a person is indistinguishable from another who they happen to be criticising but of course leads to a comparison not a contrast, so to the opposite of what you are arguing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Genuinely curious here: do you think the majority of the readership see any real difference between a crow and a raven or see them as similar, if not essentially the same?  It seems a rather thin reed to hang anything momentous off...

I believe they are chosen because they are similar yet distinct... most reader probably conflate the two... but I believe that to be intentional misdirection or camouflage on the part of GRRM.

Quote

After all, as you point out yourself "the crow calling the raven black" is a common saying.  It's used to point out that the behaviour of a person is indistinguishable from another who they happen to be criticising but of course leads to a comparison not a contrast, so to the opposite of what you are arguing.

It’s not the common saying though...

the pot calls the kettal black is a common saying. From Don Quixote... “said the pan to the pot, get out of there black eyes”.

it can be taken in two ways:

It’s either hypocrisy in that both pot and pan are black...

Or the pan (kettle) is copper and shiny and the pot is seeing its own reflection.

It may be related to the Aesops fable of the crab and the snake.

Or to a bit from mathew’s sermon on the mount... 

GRRM made this crow/raven one up for the series, and uses it repreatedly, so yes I think there is something to it.

Not only that but crows and ravens are clearly distinct throughout the series, here are a few examples:

Quote

"Crow." Jon thought the raven sounded faintly indignant.

 

Quote

The maester's ravens were paying court to some of the corpses, while the crows from the broken tower attended others.

 

Quote

Sometimes the maester's ravens joined the feast as well, flapping down from the rookery on wide black wings. When the ravens came the crowswould scatter, only to return the moment the larger birds were gone.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like this a lot actually.....coherent and well thought out, and (in my opinion) provides an alternative interpretation to the text while still following the themes and motif of the story, such as unreliable narrator, misinterpreting prophecy, and a subversion of literary tropes(in this case the hero's quest) 

Well done....its a definite maybe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Back door hodor said:

I like this a lot actually.....coherent and well thought out, and (in my opinion) provides an alternative interpretation to the text while still following the themes and motif of the story, such as unreliable narrator, misinterpreting prophecy, and a subversion of literary tropes(in this case the hero's quest) 

Well done....its a definite maybe.

So you’re saying there’s a chance!

Haha, thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So you’re saying there’s a chance!

Haha, thanks

To clarify, I definitely believe that bloodraven is the weirwood in brans dream and not the the three eyed crow, just not totally sold on the old Nan part.

But like I said, i think the textual evidence is sound and that this theory is much more believable than many others. I think because it does not actually change the story as we know it so far if it's true, only going forward.

Again, good job.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

@LiveFirstDieLater is one of the better writers on these forums. Even though I don't always agree, I enjoy the thought provoking and well written OPs he/she shares with us. 

It would be no fun to always agree with everyone!

Thank you, and cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

We have no idea what he is doing, I don’t know why you think he’s protecting the realms of men. He didn’t even do that as hand of the king, he sent peasants back to lands which couldn’t support them, and ruled through a reign of terror.

Because he's teaching Bran what he needs to know to help defeat the Others. Not sure how you missed that.

On 4/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Maybe, it certainly gets Bran to fly so he doesn’t die. Also showing him why he must live... But after that? It seems like the bird blinds him at the end of the falling dream, just after Bran fills his wings.

That's not blinding him, it's trying to open his third eye.

On 4/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

What? Not sure if you mean Bloodraven, his crimes were a lot more than incest... he was sent to the wall for breaking guestright (oathbreaking) by killing his own kin.

You completely misread what I wrote. I was talking about Cersei. She committed treasonous incest. There was nothing illegal about Bloodraven sleepig with his sister. 

He was sent to the wall for violating guestright, not for kinslaying. The guy was a distant cousin and it was arguably the best thing to do for the stability of the realm. Bloodraven is quite Machiavellian.

On 4/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Bloodraven’s Lair sure seems like what Bran saw in the falling dream, the frozen Weirwoods flying up at him and the bones of dreamers impaired on their roots.

The imagery seemed pretty clear to me, and it wasn't frozen roots. The roots of trees are underground where it's warmer. 

On 4/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Be careful, Jojen sees a vision of the three eyed crow, he doesn’t communicate with it... he makes assumptions when interpreting his visions just like Mel. He wasn’t even sure Bran was the winged wolf until after getting to Winterfell..

I didn't say Jojen communicated with the 3EC. I said 3EC has been in contact with him. The contact does not have to be two-ways.

On 4/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Jojen also says the Three Eyed Crow is North, after Nan is taken north to the Dreadfort... it’s not clear where the details like beyond the wall come from as he seems to be making it up as he goes along... when asked if there is there more than one three eyed crow? He answers, maybe he will find us...  

The Dreadfort is east-northeast of Winterfell. Far more east than north. And since Coldhands was to take him to the 3EC and Coldhands can't go south of the Wall, that means 3EC is north of the Wall.

On 4/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Maybe, it does sound like Euron had a falling dream. But we don’t know that the 3eC came to him, after all it’s a drowned crow on the shoulder of the man without a face in the ghost of highheart’s dream. Crowfood Umber has a crow come peck out his eye while he was asleep too and he bit his head off. Both men’s crows are dead.

The Ghost of High Heart's vision is actually one of the easiest ones to decode. Drowned crow = a guy called Crow's Eye, who is Ironborn and thus supposedly an adherent of the Drowned God. The man without a face is a Faceless Man hired to kill Balon. The fact that the crow is perching on the man's shoulder indicated that Euron is the one who hired the FM.

Euron mentions a crow telling him he could fly. That's no coincidence. Crowfood Umber is actually missing an eye. Euron has both of his. The patch doesn't conceal an empty socket or damaged eye, but as Theon calls it "a black eye shining with malice."

Also Euron's personal coat of arms includes a red eye. Who do we know who has a red eye, not two, but one red eye? Bloodraven.

On 4/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

No... Jojen has a dream and Howland Reed sent them to Winterfell. Jojen wasn’t even sure Bran was the wolf till after they arrived.

Jojen and Meera came to Winterfell. That's what I wrote. Their father sending them does not make that invalid. Jojen himself says they are to take him to the 3EC. He doesn't say it at first of course, because he has to feel out the situation and get to know Bran a bit before he mentions it. You don't just go talking to strangers about three-eyed birds and prophecy.

Quote

ACOK, Bran IV:

   "Is the crow at Greywater Watch?"
   "No. The crow is in the north."
   "At the Wall?" Bran had always wanted to see the Wall. His bastard brother Jon was there now, a man of the Night's Watch.
   "Beyond the Wall." Meera Reed hung the net from her belt. "When Jojen told our lord father what he dreamed, he sent us to Winterfell."

They clearly believe the 3EC is north of the Wall, and they were sent to Winterfell for the purpose of taking Bran to him. Jojen may not fully understand it all, but Howland knew what was what, or he never would have sent them to Bran.

On 4/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ravens... not crows... they are clearly distinct. 

Not in the text. Bloodraven is both a raven and crow anyway, so your point is moot.

On 4/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And remember the Nights King Story? 

Yes I do. We don't know how much of that was truth, how much was propaganda, and how much was added later because it sounded good.

Night's King was supposedly bewitched by a woman (possibly an Other or half-Other) who he made his queen, turned the Night's Watch into his own private army, and was found to have been sacrificing to the Others. The only thing we've got close to sacrificing to the Others in these books would be Craster, giving them his sons. Bloodraven has no sons to give to them, has not declared himself a king, has no queen, and is not bewitching the Night's Watch.

On 4/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And of course Bran has suspicions:

A character having suspicions does not equal those suspicions being true, especially in this series. It would be odd if Bran didn't have any suspicions.

On 4/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And Coldhands has Sam swear not to tell anyone... so there are no seekers to find Bran’s bones... Nothing about that sounds benevolent.

Interesting interpretation you've added to the text. I can think of other reasons why Sam can't tell anyone.

1. Someone might come and interrupt Bran's training to crown him King in the North.
2. Someone might come and interrupt Bran's training to finish him off.
3) Anyone who comes looking for Bran will be prey to the Others and become even more wights in the frozen army headed for Westeros.
4) Not only will no one believe Sam but they'll call him crazy and discount everything he has to say, which would be a problem later on when Sam may be the one person to whom everyone needs to listen.

On 4/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

This is very storybook, Bran goes to meet a wise old wizard who can fix his legs...

Odin is also called Oathbreaker...

Bloodraven’s Lair is the Heart of Winter.

No one said anything about Bran's legs being fixed. Jojen didn't, Meera didn't, the 3EC didn't, Coldhands didn't, and I certainly didn't.

Odin can be called anything you like. GRRM uses things from history and mythology for inspiration. He does NOT create carbon copies of them within his stories. He's said before there are no one-to-one correlations.

There is nothing in the text to indicate that Bloodraven's lair is the Heart of Winter. Bran had to fly a long way north of the Wall to get to the HoW. The cave is nowhere near as far from the Wall as the HoW is. And if the lair was the HoW that would make Bloodraven The Great Other, which is ridiculous because he's half-Targaryen/half-Blackwood and wasn't around when the Others first showed up. Not to mention that Mel thinks he's The Great Other which pretty much guarantees he isn't.

On 4/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ravens are not the same as crows. Bloodraven is no longer a crow, by his own admission. 

And there are no people with dragonblood, silver hair, and purple eyes in the real world. This is fiction, and GRRM has definitely not made any kind of point about major differences between the two. He actually links them together.

Quote

AGOT, Jon VII:

"The crow is the raven's poor cousin. they are both beggars in black, hated and misunderstood."

Maester Aemon's words there.

Bloodraven is still wearing his blacks, and not dead. He is still working to protect Westeros, and everyone else now, against the biggest threat they've ever faced. He's still a crow, whether he thinks of himself that way or not. He is the sword in the darkness, the watcher north of the Wall, the shield that guards the realms of men, and his watch shall not end until his death.
 

On 4/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

He has already flown...

No, not really. He flew in the dream, but that's nothing compared to skinchanging birds and using them to do recon for a massive war that's coming up between men and ice demons.

On 4/26/2018 at 8:43 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I don’t think there is any doubt that you are not the only one to swallow the story hook line and sinker.

I pretty much stick with the text and what can reasonably inferred from it on this, combined with my decades of reading, writing, and critical thinking skills. I'm not against the idea that there's more going on than is explicitly stated on the page, but you've made some leaps here that require a specific interpretation of the text, and 99% of the evidence for those leaps are found only in that interpretation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 26/04/2018 at 6:29 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I believe they are chosen because they are similar yet distinct... most reader probably conflate the two... but I believe that to be intentional misdirection or camouflage on the part of GRRM.

It’s not the common saying though...

the pot calls the kettal black is a common saying. From Don Quixote... “said the pan to the pot, get out of there black eyes”.

it can be taken in two ways:

It’s either hypocrisy in that both pot and pan are black...

Or the pan (kettle) is copper and shiny and the pot is seeing its own reflection.

It may be related to the Aesops fable of the crab and the snake.

Or to a bit from mathew’s sermon on the mount... 

GRRM made this crow/raven one up for the series, and uses it repreatedly, so yes I think there is something to it.

Not only that but crows and ravens are clearly distinct throughout the series, here are a few examples:

The bolded is kind of the point.  Since the Others and the 3EC are such a major part of the story it's hard to think GRRM would intentionally set out to misdirect "the masses" while allowing the savants to see the truth.  For minor mysteries or hidden easter eggs, sure, but not for major plot drivers or the heart of the story.  As either Butterbumps or JCRB said a long time ago on this forum - the art of storytelling is for the story to flow not to have a sudden jarring break where you realise everything has been a lie or a set-up a la M Night Shyamalan (The Sixth Sense or even more apt The Village).

Thanks for pointing out that GRRM in fact created that saying.  I have to admit it feels so familiar that I instinctively understood what it meant and equated it with the much earlier saying.  It seems extremely likely that GRRM expected that.  The first meaning - both pot and kettle being black - is the only one I am aware of  and though I note wikipedia allows for the contradictory meaning you mention I have never heard anyone use it with that meaning.  It would be confusing if it had two contradictory meanings, no?  I have to assume GRRM understands what the common phrase means and has not set out to subvert it's meaning as part of a master plan to deliberately confuse us.  Good heavens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×