Sansa and Cognitive Dissonance

[Angel Eyes]

4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Well I was thinking more of the Stark hate threads when I wrote this (Jon's oathbreaking and Arya's a psychopath) as there are so many of them lately, hence why I didn't specify Sansa-hate. Dany hate seems to be out of style, at least compared to other times.

One's person's excuses is another person's understanding. Just because I understand why a character did and said something doesn't mean I agree with it. I understand why Bowen Marsh stabbed Jon. But holy cow...

There are numerous examples in this thread and the Stark threads are full of it where an opinion only holds water if you ignore other text which goes against one's argument. Reread above thread or any other character hate thread.

My opinion of Sansa has changed by reading the books, from annoyance to dislike to pity. To be honest, she reminds me a bit of the Disney Ariel; a red-haired highborn lady who has a crush on a prince, which results in her getting captured and something horrible happening to her father (Ned’s execution, Triton getting turned into an itty-bitty; though in Triton’s case it doesn’t stick).

I guess the lesson of this is: Wanting is better than having. She gets betrothed to a prince. What does she gain? Her father’s head on a spike and domestic abuse.

[John Suburbs]

23 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Better people often die while the undeserving survive, that’s just a fact of life, not evidence of any virtue on the part of the living.

First of all, that’s ridiculous, since one of them is responsible for betraying Ned and both contributes to his downfall while also putting herself in Lannister care... we can talk about the reasons why, but she has some share of personal responsibility for her own behavior. 

To compare these two plot arcs like that is preposterous. 

But all of that aside, Sansa’s immoral behavior, lack of empathy, refusal to take personal responsibility, her betrayal of Arya and Ned and Mikken and Nymeria, her lack of emotion at the deaths of life long friends and servants, and the fact that it was their own choices which led the sisters down different roads...

Why wouldn’t Arya have survived? Honestly? I do not understand... what would have killed her? I really don’t get it.

I get that the show wanted Sansa and Cat to be more likable... but the redemption stuff isn’t in the books.

Sansa did what she had to do to stay alive, just like Arya did, just like Jon did, just like Tyrion did, Dany, Varys, Theon, and virtually everybody in-story. So, sure, hang Sansa for her immoral behavior and her repeated betrayals, but don't claim she is any better or worse than anyone else in the story.

Why wouldn't Arya have survived? Oh, I don't know. I can imagine her launching herself at Joffrey, Cersei or the Hound at any number of points -- Ned's execution, the trip to see the heads, the beatings at the lower bailey -- and quick as you please she would have been either killed outright or executed for trying to kill a royal. Arya is way too hot-headed to have survived that environment.

[Lollygag]

Jon's feelings about his entire family and his bastardry are very, very complicated and I think we've yet to see the full force of this expressed in the books. It's very difficult to look so much into these two when they've never even interacted on page before. We only have the occasional memory. Jon being a little hurt by Sansa's half-brother is the least of it, or perhaps rather, seeing the tip the iceberg.

AGOT Tyrion II

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son. "What are you reading about?" he asked.

"Dragons," Tyrion told him.

"What good is that? There are no more dragons," the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.

"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. "I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

"No," Jon Snow said, horrified. "I wouldn't …"

"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow. "Well, no doubt the Starks have been terribly good to you. I'm certain Lady Stark treats you as if you were one of her own. And your brother Robb, he's always been kind, and why not? He gets Winterfell and you get the Wall. And your father … he must have good reasons for packing you off to the Night's Watch …"

"Stop it," Jon Snow said, his face dark with anger. "The Night's Watch is a noble calling!"

Tyrion laughed. "You're too smart to believe that. The Night's Watch is a midden heap for all the misfits of the realm. I've seen you looking at Yoren and his boys. Those are your new brothers, Jon Snow, how do you like them? Sullen peasants, debtors, poachers, rapers, thieves, and bastards like you all wind up on the Wall, watching for grumkins and snarks and all the other monsters your wet nurse warned you about. The good part is there are no grumkins or snarks, so it's scarcely dangerous work. The bad part is you freeze your balls off, but since you're not allowed to breed anyway, I don't suppose that matters."

"Stop it!" the boy screamed. He took a step forward, his hands coiling into fists, close to tears.

Suddenly, absurdly, Tyrion felt guilty. He took a step forward, intending to give the boy a reassuring pat on the shoulder or mutter some word of apology.

He never saw the wolf, where it was or how it came at him. One moment he was walking toward Snow and the next he was flat on his back on the hard rocky ground, the book spinning away from him as he fell, the breath going out of him at the sudden impact, his mouth full of dirt and blood and rotting leaves. As he tried to get up, his back spasmed painfully. He must have wrenched it in the fall. He ground his teeth in frustration, grabbed a root, and pulled himself back to a sitting position. "Help me," he said to the boy, reaching up a hand.

 

AGOT Jon VIII

"As you say, my lord." It was not the thought of scars that troubled Jon; it was the rest of it. Maester Aemon had given him milk of the poppy, yet even so, the pain had been hideous. At first it had felt as if his hand were still aflame, burning day and night. Only plunging it into basins of snow and shaved ice gave any relief at all. Jon thanked the gods that no one but Ghost saw him writhing on his bed, whimpering from the pain. And when at last he did sleep, he dreamt, and that was even worse. In the dream, the corpse he fought had blue eyes, black hands, and his father's face, but he dared not tell Mormont that.

…

Whatever demonic force moved Othor had been driven out by the flames; the twisted thing they had found in the ashes had been no more than cooked meat and charred bone. Yet in his nightmare he faced it again … and this time the burning corpse wore Lord Eddard's features. It was his father's skin that burst and blackened, his father's eyes that ran liquid down his cheeks like jellied tears. Jon did not understand why that should be or what it might mean, but it frightened him more than he could say.

 

ASOS Jon XII

He was almost ready to lower his blade and call a halt when Emmett feinted low and came in over his shield with a savage forehand slash that caught Jon on the temple. He staggered, his helm and head both ringing from the force of the blow. For half a heartbeat the world beyond his eyeslit was a blur.

And then the years were gone, and he was back at Winterfell once more, wearing a quilted leather coat in place of mail and plate. His sword was made of wood, and it was Robb who stood facing him, not Iron Emmett.

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he'd taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. "Jon, enough," Halder was shouting, "he's down, you disarmed him. Enough!"

No. Not enough. Never enough. Jon let his sword drop. "I'm sorry," he muttered. "Emmett, are you hurt?"

Iron Emmett pulled his battered helm off. "Was there some part of yield you could not comprehend, Lord Snow?" It was said amiably, though. Emmett was an amiable man, and he loved the song of swords. "Warrior defend me," he groaned, "now I know how Qhorin Halfhand must have felt."

That was too much. Jon wrenched free of his friends and retreated to the armory, alone. His ears were still ringing from the blow Emmett had dealt him. He sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands. Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father's heir.

It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

His friends were still out in the practice yard, but Jon was in no fit state to face them. He left the armory by the back, descending a steep flight of stone steps to the wormways, the tunnels that linked the castle's keeps and towers below the earth. It was short walk to the bathhouse, where he took a cold plunge to wash the sweat off and soaked in a hot stone tub. The warmth took some of the ache from his muscles and made him think of Winterfell's muddy pools, steaming and bubbling in the godswood. Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins.

You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.

…

Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. But what do I want? The sun crept down the sky to dip behind the Wall where it curved through the western hills. Jon watched as that towering expanse of ice took on the reds and pinks of sunset. Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms . . . though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Rayder's queen, but still . . .

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. "Ghost?" He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. "Ghost!" he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. "Gods, wolf, where have you been?" Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. "I thought you'd died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I've had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams." The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon's face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

 

[Angel Eyes]

9 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sansa did what she had to do to stay alive, just like Arya did, just like Jon did, just like Tyrion did, Dany, Varys, Theon, and virtually everybody in-story. So, sure, hang Sansa for her immoral behavior and her repeated betrayals, but don't claim she is any better or worse than anyone else in the story.

Why wouldn't Arya have survived? Oh, I don't know. I can imagine her launching herself at Joffrey, Cersei or the Hound at any number of points -- Ned's execution, the trip to see the heads, the beatings at the lower bailey -- and quick as you please she would have been either killed outright or executed for trying to kill a royal. Arya is way too hot-headed to have survived that environment.

Had Jaime been captured at that point? Couldn’t they take that as an opportunity to execute him if either Sansa or Arya was executed?

[Light a wight tonight]

On 4/25/2018 at 1:03 PM, ToysoldierXIII said:

L
“Poor Jon,” she said. “He gets jealous because he's a bastard.”

We've followed Jon, has it every struck you that he was jealous of his siblings?

 

Yes, as a matter fact he is resentful as hell about various things. One example is him being relegated to one of the lower tables at the feast at Winterfell given in Good King Bob's honor. He gets drunk and unburdens himself to Tyrion. He also expresses his anger with his status to Benjen, saying the he'd never sire a bastard.

[Lollygag]

6 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

My opinion of Sansa has changed by reading the books, from annoyance to dislike to pity. To be honest, she reminds me a bit of the Disney Ariel; a red-haired highborn lady who has a crush on a prince, which results in her getting captured and something horrible happening to her father (Ned’s execution, Triton getting turned into an itty-bitty; though in Triton’s case it doesn’t stick).

I guess the lesson of this is: Wanting is better than having. She gets betrothed to a prince. What does she gain? Her father’s head on a spike and domestic abuse.

I think the bolded is the intention of the author for most of the characters who've had some time put into them on-page.

I like the Little Mermaid parallel! I've come to see Sansa as a Dorothy type, wanting to get over the rainbow out of her dreary grey world, but when she gets it, she only wants to go home.

[Angel Eyes]

Just now, Lollygag said:

I think the bolded is the intention of the author for most of the characters who've had some time put into them on-page.

I like the Little Mermaid parallel! I've come to see Sansa as a Dorothy type, wanting to get over the rainbow out of her dreary grey world, but when she gets it, she only wants to go home.

To be honest, I’ve never liked Ariel. When it comes to Disney princesses, she’s not high on my list.

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, ToysoldierXIII said:

This is the problem and pretty much why I stopped responding once the Sansa brigade came in.

I offered a neat little psychoanalysis (that does hold water, feel free to ask any psychologists who have read the series) and offered that Sansa, love her or hate her, is a REALLY compelling character.

But then the dissonance of the Sansa brigade kicks in and they currently arguing that she is not a compelling character. They are arguing that she is a perfect Mary Sue.  Absolutely bananas to me that that Sansa lovers are so delusional that they are currently arguing how terrible she is - that is the level of crazy we are dealing with.

And yes, there are exceptions and moments that slightly contradict EVERYTHING in this series, even our sacred RLJ. What matters is pattern, totals/majority, and recency and while you may find an anomaly or two here and there my original statements still win out on those three things.

The thing is, if you want to talk about characters with CD, why single out Sansa? I see all kinds of characters, both "good" and "bad", who refuse to recognize the truth and instead base their decision-making on what they'd prefer to be true rather than what actually is true: Ned, Dany, Tyrion, Robb, Catelyn, Theon, Cersei, Jaime, Sandor... The list is endless.

In fact, this is a central theme of the book as voiced by Tyrion: "Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it." Kind of works that way in real life too.

[Angel Eyes]

Just now, John Suburbs said:

The thing is, if you want to talk about characters with CD, why single out Sansa? I see all kinds of characters, both "good" and "bad", who refuse to recognize the truth and instead base their decision-making on what they'd prefer to be true rather than what actually is true: Ned, Dany, Tyrion, Robb, Catelyn, Theon, Cersei, Jaime, Sandor... The list is endless.

In fact, this is a central theme of the book as voiced by Tyrion: "Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it." Kind of works that way in real life too.

I could talk about Cersei and cognitive dissonance.

[Springwatch]

4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Had Jaime been captured at that point? Couldn’t they take that as an opportunity to execute him if either Sansa or Arya was executed?

It would be an interesting dilemma. If Cat killed Jaime in revenge for Arya, Cersei would kill Sansa in revenge for Jaime.

But even if Sansa wasn't present, Robb valued Jaime more than a sister - he'd keep him as part of a bigger deal.

[Lollygag]

Just now, Angel Eyes said:

To be honest, I’ve never liked Ariel. When it comes to Disney princesses, she’s not high on my list.

After I grew out of that phase, I didn't care for those movies or characters in general. I have to go back to my kid-self to watch them. I've kind of wished they'd rehash these in live-action with a bit more depth. Still kid-appropriate though.

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, Springwatch said:

It would be an interesting dilemma. If Cat killed Jaime in revenge for Arya, Cersei would kill Sansa in revenge for Jaime.

But even if Sansa wasn't present, Robb valued Jaime more than a sister - he'd keep him as part of a bigger deal.

And Joffrey would have to look elsewhere for a bride.

[John Suburbs]

7 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Had Jaime been captured at that point? Couldn’t they take that as an opportunity to execute him if either Sansa or Arya was executed?

Mayhaps, for a little while. But assaulting the king is a capital offense in any realm, so at best, once Jaime was free, her life would have been forfeit. Now, whether or not that would have caused Cat to rethink her plan to release him is another matter. My only point is, given the same circumstances, Arya would never have been able to navigate her way through that, eating all that crow. She would have lost her temper and done something to get herself killed.

[Springwatch]

14 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Jon's feelings about his entire family and his bastardry are very, very complicated and I think we've yet to see the full force of this expressed in the books. It's very difficult to look so much into these two when they've never even interacted on page before. We only have the occasional memory. Jon being a little hurt by Sansa's half-brother is the least of it, or perhaps rather, seeing the tip the iceberg....

Agree, and the quotes show it very well. I think Jon's dragon blood, as well as wolf blood, would always have driven him to excel, never feeling comfortable in second place.

Almost a side issue, but it's emphasised that a bastard sword is halfway to being a greatsword. Being a bastard is probably always a marker of someone beyond the ordinary.

[John Suburbs]

4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I could talk about Cersei and cognitive dissonance.

All of the characters I've mentioned:

Ned and his blindness as to the real Robert Baratheon and the situation in King's Landing

Tyrion and his willful ignorance about Shae

Dany and her blindness when it comes to abolishing slavery and her trust in MMD

Hardly anybody is dealing with hard truths, which, after all, tend to be elusive things to begin with.

[Philokles]

Strange how Arya managed to survive Harrenhal with the Lannister soldiers brazenly committing war crimes, without the protection afforded to her by being the sister of a King, but is too hot-headed to survive in KL.

[Angel Eyes]

5 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

After I grew out of that phase, I didn't care for those movies or characters in general. I have to go back to my kid-self to watch them. I've kind of wished they'd rehash these in live-action with a bit more depth. Still kid-appropriate though.

Ariel’s actions when I was younger (about 8) struck me as particularly selfish. Other Disney princesses have disobeyed their fathers, but for relatively good reasons; Belle bartered for her father’s release and Mulan took her father’s place in the army to spare him from a death in battle, while Moana’s disobedience is to do her duty to save her civilization. 

[Angel Eyes]

4 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

All of the characters I've mentioned:

Ned and his blindness as to the real Robert Baratheon and the situation in King's Landing

Tyrion and his willful ignorance about Shae

Dany and her blindness when it comes to abolishing slavery and her trust in MMD

Hardly anybody is dealing with hard truths, which, after all, tend to be elusive things to begin with.

I was thinking on an offshoot thread on Cersei, to give an example.

[Lollygag]

7 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Agree, and the quotes show it very well. I think Jon's dragon blood, as well as wolf blood, would always have driven him to excel, never feeling comfortable in second place.

Almost a side issue, but it's emphasised that a bastard sword is halfway to being a greatsword. Being a bastard is probably always a marker of someone beyond the ordinary.

Agree! Someone who follows the rules of society "we do it that way because that's the way we've always done it" (ugh) vs someone who thinks outside of the box. Most of the major POVs, maybe all, have to some degree been bastardized by now in some way, which I guess is why their story is worth telling.

Edit: And I do wonder if being named Lord Commander (legitimized in a way) and having it taken away again won't be perceived by Jon as being re-bastardized. If so, won't go over well.

[Lollygag]

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Ariel’s actions when I was younger (about 8) struck me as particularly selfish. Other Disney princesses have disobeyed their fathers, but for relatively good reasons; Belle bartered for her father’s release and Mulan took her father’s place in the army to spare him from a death in battle, while Moana’s disobedience is to do her duty to save her civilization. 

I remember things that I read well, but have an awful memory for movies I've not seen a ton of times. I'll keep an eye out for these things next time I watch.