Wow, I never noticed that v.17

[Guest]

On 7/12/2018 at 1:15 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Jon's dance with an-other (snow flake).

You mean, an Other, because Waymar says something similar?

Quote

“You could dance with me, you know. It would be only courteous. You danced with me anon.”
“Anon?” teased Jon.
“When we were children.”

I noticed that Alys is using "anon" incorrectly here, and Jon teases her for it. It means shortly, soon. It triggers the thought later:

Quote

“A snowflake danced upon the air. Then another. Dance with me, Jon Snow, he thought. You’ll dance with me anon.”

I think this first part is a memory he either has of Sansa or Alys, because Jon is being addressed. But the second part where he uses "anon" correctly, is a mystery.

[Corvo the Crow]

20 hours ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

You mean, an Other, because Waymar says something similar?

I noticed that Alys is using "anon" incorrectly here, and Jon teases her for it. It means shortly, soon. It triggers the thought later:

I think this first part is a memory he either has of Sansa or Alys, because Jon is being addressed. But the second part where he uses "anon" correctly, is a mystery.

On phone, hard to quote seperately...

 

Yes, because of Waymar.

 

Anon; I remember checking all the meanings of it and one of them was "then", though merrism webster doesn't have it and I'm unsure where I got that meaning now.

[Lollygag]

@Keep Shelly in Athens @Corvo the Crow

Huh. Found this in TWOW with dancing and an -other.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/127485-twow-spoilers-alayne-i-v-3/&do=findComment&comment=7895665

 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

@Keep Shelly in Athens @Corvo the Crow

Huh. Found this in TWOW with dancing and an -other.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/127485-twow-spoilers-alayne-i-v-3/&do=findComment&comment=7895665

 

And I bet it'll be a Waynwood with their long Stark faces or perhaps Andar Royce if he looks anything like Waymar, whose phyique was so much like Jon's.

[Corvo the Crow]

Can anyone explain to me the connection between these 3 houses?;

Boltons:

-Called Redkings

-There were at least 4 Royce Boltons, two of them, Royce II and Royce IV, called "Redarm" sacking for Winterfell.

-Rogar(name is similar to Robar) called the Huntsman bent the knee to the Starks at the start of AI. 

- Their castle is Dreadfort, possibly a play on The Redfort(Redkings of The Redfort, just like Kings of Winter-fell)

- Domeric squired at Redfort

 

Royces:

- Robar II united the first men of Vale against Andals

- Robar, Yohn's second son, is a R(ainbow) G(uard) with his color being Red, he is slain near Durrandon/Baratheon castle Storm's end by Loras after King  Renly died. Interestingly this is the place another Robar (Baratheon) declared Jahaerys and not Maegor is the king, he succeeded.

- Ysilla, Yohn's Daughter, has just married a Redfort, Mychel, tying the two houses

 

Redforts:

- United under Royces in AI

- Torgold Tollett hacked Lord Redfort's arm, so giving him a Redarm

- Ysilla Royce marriage.

- Domeric Bolton squiring for Lord Redfort

Along with these, there's also that Royces may look like Starks (Waymar) and that Royce is the male form of Rose. 

Also, a Robar is a robber and a Rogar is a beggar (House Rogare, anyone ) (latin languages)

 

Also Rogar/Robar could be Rogue(color red) gar/bar

 

A gar is a yarn, net and intestine (germanic languages)

A bar is... a bar(rod) along with beam, gate, barrier, fence, assault...

 

anyway, back to the original question; what's the connection?

 

Oh and @The Fattest Leech I think I'll invite you here, you are interested in Stark/Bolton connections and this may end up going there.

[Corvo the Crow]

Yohn Royce is the most powerful men in the Vale, has three sons but sends the youngest to NW and  his second son leaves him to join Renly becasuse a second son has nothing. Mychel Redfort has 4 sons from 3 wives, even his youngest get to be married and to whom? Ysilla Royce, daughter of the most Powerful man in the vale, a man so powerful he doesn't have the resources to keep his sons and marry his single daughter to a fourth son?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yohn Royce is the most powerful men in the Vale, has three sons but sends the youngest to NW and  his second son leaves him to join Renly becasuse a second son has nothing. Mychel Redfort has 4 sons from 3 wives, even his youngest get to be married and to whom? Ysilla Royce, daughter of the most Powerful man in the vale, a man so powerful he doesn't have the resources to keep his sons and marry his single daughter to a fourth son?

Yeah, but that's not just an issue with Yohn Royce has. Littlefinger also comments on the Tyrell situation. He says that it's difficult for a father to find lands for a second son, let alone a third one. Garland probably lives at Highgarden (the Florents have not surrendered Brightwater Keep) and Loras joined the Kingsguard and he was part of Renly's Rainbow Guard before.

Brandon Stark had a marriage arranged for him, but as far as we know, there was nothing for Ned yet, a second son and Benjen, a third son (who became a second son after his brother's death) still joined the Night's Watch.

Ysilla's marriage is a purely political one. Redfort seems to b the surest ally Bronze Yohn has at the moment. 

[Seams]

On 10/27/2018 at 5:47 AM, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

I noticed that Alys is using "anon" incorrectly here, and Jon teases her for it. It means shortly, soon. It triggers the thought later:

I think this first part is a memory he either has of Sansa or Alys, because Jon is being addressed. But the second part where he uses "anon" correctly, is a mystery.

I know I am something of a Johnny-one-note, but I wonder whether there is deliberate wordplay here on "anon" and "Old Nan." Old Nan would be the source of much of Jon Snow's (and Bran's) information on The Others. The Harvest Feast at Winterfell, where Bran presides, has a lot of detail around Bran arriving on his horse named Dancer, feeling wistful because he will never be able to dance, and Old Nan's relative, Hodor, being the first to dance (all by himself).

I suspect the author is also giving us a parallel between Old Nan and Olenna Tyrell by making their names similar. Sansa has a memorable dance with Ser Garlan Tyrell at her wedding feast.

Because of Melisandre's vision, Alys Karstark is a parallel character for Arya Stark. Arya is, of course, a water dancer. For a period of time, including the time she accepts the coin from Jaqen H'ghar, Arya tells people that her name is Nan.

[Seams]

10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Can anyone explain to me the connection between these 3 houses?;

Boltons:

-Called Redkings

-There were at least 4 Royce Boltons, two of them, Royce II and Royce IV, called "Redarm" sacking for Winterfell.

-Rogar(name is similar to Robar) called the Huntsman bent the knee to the Starks at the start of AI. 

- Their castle is Dreadfort, possibly a play on The Redfort(Redkings of The Redfort, just like Kings of Winter-fell)

- Domeric squired at Redfort

 

Royces:

- Robar II united the first men of Vale against Andals

- Robar, Yohn's second son, is a R(ainbow) G(uard) with his color being Red, he is slain near Durrandon/Baratheon castle Storm's end by Loras after King  Renly died. Interestingly this is the place another Robar (Baratheon) declared Jahaerys and not Maegor is the king, he succeeded.

- Ysilla, Yohn's Daughter, has just married a Redfort, Mychel, tying the two houses

 

Redforts:

- United under Royces in AI

- Torgold Tollett hacked Lord Redfort's arm, so giving him a Redarm

- Ysilla Royce marriage.

- Domeric Bolton squiring for Lord Redfort

Along with these, there's also that Royces may look like Starks (Waymar) and that Royce is the male form of Rose. 

Also, a Robar is a robber and a Rogar is a beggar (House Rogare, anyone ) (latin languages)

 

Also Rogar/Robar could be Rogue(color red) gar/bar

This could easily be the opening post for a new thread. Lots of possibilities here.

I suspect that House Redfort is an allusion to Harrenhal, which was built with human blood mixed into its mortar. Or it could be a reference to the Red Keep.

The Redfort sigil is a stone fort surrounded by an "embattled border" - it looks like a castle within a surrounding stone wall.

If their words are really "As strong as stone," this could be Robert Strong and Alayne Stone references (although the Mya Stone connection to Mychel Redfort might also be relevant).

I notice that Royces are often present at major turning points in the stories. I suspect your point that the name Royce is related to the word "rose" might be significant. We know that GRRM was looking at the War of the Roses as a model for the plot, and he has used a Thorne / throne pun. I don't think Royce / rose wordplay rules out an additional pun on Royce / Roi, the French word for king.

Speaking of roses, I also proposed that Ser Cortnay Penrose was a sort of symbolic Royce. He and Renly were the only people killed by Melisandre's so-called shadow babies.

We are seeing a possible Royce vs. Royce situation coming together in the vale with the main branch opposed to Littlefinger as Lord Protector and the junior branch newly interested in seeing Littlefinger succeed. Perhaps it is not a coincidence that two heirs of the two houses are Andar and Randa.

I'm not sure what to think about a special Bolton connection to either House Redfort or House Royce. I really like your Redfort / Dreadfort rhyming link.

As I mentioned in one of the links, the fact that Walder Frey's first wife was a Royce stood out to me. His first batch of heirs would all be half-Royces.

If the rose / Royce connection can be analyzed for deeper connections, I suspect we will have to look more closely at House Tyrell, with their rose sigils.

[Corvo the Crow]

9 hours ago, Seams said:

This could easily be the opening post for a new thread. Lots of possibilities here.

And I knew you'd say exactly this, hence I invited leech and not you 

I don't have enough spare time these days(at least it appears I won't have it) to make enough  research on the subject to open a thread but feel free to start one if you have it.

9 hours ago, Seams said:

If their words are really "As strong as stone," this could be Robert Strong and Alayne Stone references (although the Mya Stone connection to Mychel Redfort might also be relevant).

I think there were theories on Robert Strong having Robert's head with Clegane's body, though not sure. Either way, Mya is Robert's daughter, could be relevant. If going from that, there is also our weak Robert who is interested in Alayne Stone.

 

9 hours ago, Seams said:

I notice that Royces are often present at major turning points in the stories. I suspect your point that the name Royce is related to the word "rose" might be significant. We know that GRRM was looking at the War of the Roses as a model for the plot, and he has used a Thorne / throne pun. I don't think Royce / rose wordplay rules out an additional pun on Royce / Roi, the French word for king.

Could the Royce/Roi also be from that they were kings? Could Queen of Thorns be Queen of Thrones? She does seem to have so many connections to the throne and the games for it. Had Daeron married her, Jahaerys II may have lost the throne just like Duncan. She also mentions to Sansa knowing Rickard though not very well, so who knows, Rickard's southern ambitions may have extended to Reach as well.

interesting post on Royces.

Back on track though; since you mentioned the war of Roses, in AFFC there appears to be a subtle War of the Royces between Nestor's and Andar's branches, with one supporting LF and the other trying to remove him. Like you mentioned in below quote.

9 hours ago, Seams said:

We are seeing a possible Royce vs. Royce situation coming together in the vale with the main branch opposed to Littlefinger as Lord Protector and the junior branch newly interested in seeing Littlefinger succeed. Perhaps it is not a coincidence that two heirs of the two houses are Andar and Randa.

 

With Waymar looking somewhat like a Stark, I have also thought if there could be a Stark/Royce connection since Stark women are associated with roses and I think I have mentioned that earlier some months ago. I was working on a
thread  to connect some houses to Starks through our knowledge, like Cranes and intended to do Royces as well though couldn't find much on them and discontinued the thread having not much time at the time. One other such house was Farwynds of Lonely Light with the looks of a Stark, warging wolves of the sea and Gylbert's declaring his intention of going all Brandon Shipwright in the Kingsmoot, though can't find my post on it now.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

King's Beyond the Wall...

 Joramun especially.

Quote

"Wildlings have invaded the realm before." Jon had heard the tales from Old Nan and Maester Luwin both, back at Winterfell. "Raymun Redbeard led them south in the time of my grandfather's grandfather, and before him there was a king named Bael the Bard."

"Aye, and long before them came the Horned Lord and the brother kings Gendel and Gorne, and in ancient days Joramun, who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. Each man of them broke his strength on the Wall, or was broken by the power of Winterfell on the far side . . .

 

Wildling Kings either broke their strength on the Wall or was broken down by Winterfell..

 

Quote

"They're dogs and he's a wolf," said Jon. "They know he's not their kind." No more than I am yours. But he had his duty to be mindful of, the task Qhorin Halfhand had laid upon him as they shared that final fire—to play the part of turncloak, and find whatever it was that the wildlings had been seeking in the bleak cold wilderness of the Frostfangs. "Some power," Qhorin had named it to the Old Bear, but he had died before learning what it was, or whether Mance Rayder had found it with his digging.

...

"Not for fear!" She kicked savagely at the ice beneath her with a heel, chopping out a chunk. "I'm crying because we never found the Horn of Winter. We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never found the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!"

 

Wildlings are searching for Joramun's Horn so his grave is beyond the Wall.

 

Quote

"Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I've come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall." He touched the horn again. "If I sound the Horn of Winter, the Wall will fall. Or so the songs would have me believe. There are those among my people who want nothing more . . ."

 

Joramun is not listed among those coming south to conquer.

 

Quote

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

Joramun aided Brandon Stark. 

 

Though I'm not going to add quotes for them, Horned Lord passed through the Wall using magic, his fate is unknown. Gendel and Gorne passed using tunnels and were defeated. Bael the Bard crossed with some method and was defeated, Raymun Redbeard climbed through the Wall with his army, and again was defeated. 

Joramun was not one of the King's Beyond the Wall that intended to conquer the south, he never crossed the Wall. He broke his strength on the Wall helping Brandon Stark and was buried on the other side of the Wall, in Frostfangs.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

Durrandons were Starks or at least the castle of Storm's End belonged to a Stark.

 

I remember there being a theory on Weirwood's and their faces, though I can't find it now. I have also posted about it here before.

 

 

 

Quote

At the center of the grove an ancient weirwood brooded over a small pool where the waters were black and cold. "The heart tree," Ned called it. The weirwood's bark was white as bone, its leaves dark red, like a thousand bloodstained hands. A face had been carved in the trunk of the great tree, its features long and melancholy, the deep-cut eyes red with dried sap and strangely watchful. They were old, those eyes; older than Winterfell itself. They had seen Brandon the Builder set the first stone, if the tales were true; they had watched the castle's granite walls rise around them. It was said that the children of the forest had carved the faces in the trees during the dawn centuries before the coming of the First Men across the narrow sea.

You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.

 

Winterfell's Heart tree. Though we see a few other solemn characters, sad ones and melancholy ones, all of them are mostly seen on Starks and are the mark of the Stark.

 

 

 

Quote

The light of the moon painted the limbs of the weirwood silvery white as she made her way toward it, but the five-pointed red leaves turned black by night. Arya stared at the face carved into its trunk. It was a terrible face, its mouth twisted, its eyes flaring and full of hate. Is that what a god looked like? Could gods be hurt, the same as people? I should pray, she thought suddenly.

Harranhal's heart tree, likely the face of a Hoare. 

 

Quote

Glover led him along a darkened hall and down a flight of worn steps. They crossed the castle's godswood, where the heart tree had grown so huge and tangled that it had choked out all the oaks and elms and birch and sent its thick, pale limbs crashing through the walls and windows that looked down on it. Its roots were as thick around as a man's waist, its trunk so wide that the face carved into it looked fat and angry.

Wolf's Den's heart tree. Though it was not the Manderlys who planted it, blood sacrifices continued even after Manderly's came and built WH. It's the face of a Manderly.

 

Quote

At Melisandre's urging, he had dragged the Seven from their sept at Dragonstone and burned them before the castle gates, and later he had burned the godswood at Storm's End as well, even the heart tree, a huge white weirwood with a solemn face.

Weirwood of Storm's End, ancestral home of Baratheons and Durrandons before them… It has the face of a Stark.

[Seams]

48 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Winterfell's Heart tree. Though we see a few other solemn characters, sad ones and melancholy ones, all of them are mostly seen on Starks and are the mark of the Stark.

...

Weirwood of Storm's End, ancestral home of Baratheons and Durrandons before them… It has the face of a Stark.

Very nice catch! I hadn't thought about the word "solemn," but I assume it relates to "lemons." I am always looking for additional evidence to help sort out the lemon motif. You may have just found Dany's "lemon" tree - at Storm's End, of all places.

[Corvo the Crow]

On 11/1/2018 at 6:24 PM, Seams said:

Very nice catch! I hadn't thought about the word "solemn," but I assume it relates to "lemons." I am always looking for additional evidence to help sort out the lemon motif. You may have just found Dany's "lemon" tree - at Storm's End, of all places.

What does that say about the Starks with all their solemnness though?

[Joy Hill]

I reread Sansa I in ACOK, and I realised for the first time that Lothor Brune is probably the one who told LF about Sansa saving Dontos. 

[Corvo the Crow]

Borells had "the mark", hands with webbed fingers for five thousand years and like a spider's web catching a bug, they seem to get their hands on nobles secretly travelling  in the Bite, first Eddard and now Davos. I wonder if more nobles got caught in their webbed hands during their remarkablr 5000 years.

[The Sleeper]

On 10/28/2018 at 12:58 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Yohn Royce is the most powerful men in the Vale, has three sons but sends the youngest to NW and  his second son leaves him to join Renly becasuse a second son has nothing. Mychel Redfort has 4 sons from 3 wives, even his youngest get to be married and to whom? Ysilla Royce, daughter of the most Powerful man in the vale, a man so powerful he doesn't have the resources to keep his sons and marry his single daughter to a fourth son?

Ysilla Royce is his granddaughter, not his daughter. 

[Corvo the Crow]

3 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Ysilla Royce is his granddaughter, not his daughter. 

No.

[The Sleeper]

29 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

No.

It seems you're right. My bad. I was remembering something about someone mentioning about him marrying one of his granddaughters but that was to Harry. I think. 

[Corvo the Crow]

15 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

It seems you're right. My bad. I was remembering something about someone mentioning about him marrying one of his granddaughters but that was to Harry. I think. 

I think it may be Lady Waynwood, Yohn has 4 children but none were married at the start of the series so far as we know.