Mwm Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 Damn him! Anyone agrees or feels differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mwm Posted June 22, 2018 Author Share Posted June 22, 2018 If Ned didn’t bring so many men I think a truce between them would’ve been natural. He could’ve been in hiding looking over Jon, with dany, or the bridge between them... wouldve made a few things easier on Martin come to think of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord of the Crossing Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Arthur Dayne should’ve lived to be a POV character That is one way to look at it. I see it another way. Dayne is an interesting character from the past. The less we know about him, the greater his legend becomes. We don't need to know that he used to wet his bed until he was sixteen years old. I am not a fan of supposedly dead characters still being alive to come out and make an impact in the last book of the novels. Aegon is already one too many. Let it stop with him. Keep Jon Snow dead. Please do not bring back Ashara Dayne. Keep Syrio Forel dead and mention his name no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giant Ice Spider Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 29 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said: Arthur Dayne should’ve lived to be a POV character That is one way to look at it. I see it another way. Dayne is an interesting character from the past. The less we know about him, the greater his legend becomes. We don't need to know that he used to wet his bed until he was sixteen years old. I am not a fan of supposedly dead characters still being alive to come out and make an impact in the last book of the novels. Aegon is already one too many. Let it stop with him. Keep Jon Snow dead. Please do not bring back Ashara Dayne. Keep Syrio Forel dead and mention his name no more. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Characters who have a job of shutting up and following orders are rarely going to be compelling characters (Areo anyone?). They don’t have free will like others. Jaime becomes a POV after he’s begun to question his role. Barristan becomes a POV after he’s been freed from the KG. Jon’s not a big fan of tradition and rules being more pragmatic. Sam despite his claims to cowardice has a major rebellious streak. Resisting Randyll even in cowardice is something, not to mention he killed an Other and stole Gilly. Coward, indeed. To make Arthur Dayne an interesting character, his situation would have to be quite different than what we got. ACOK Catelyn VII "As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree." Reading a whole bunch of what Gerold Hightower told Jaime would have been boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mwm Posted June 23, 2018 Author Share Posted June 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Lollygag said: Characters who have a job of shutting up and following orders are rarely going to be compelling characters (Areo anyone?). They don’t have free will like others. Jaime becomes a POV after he’s begun to question his role. Barristan becomes a POV after he’s been freed from the KG. Jon’s not a big fan of tradition and rules being more pragmatic. Sam despite his claims to cowardice has a major rebellious streak. Resisting Randyll even in cowardice is something, not to mention he killed an Other and stole Gilly. Coward, indeed. To make Arthur Dayne an interesting character, his situation would have to be quite different than what we got. ACOK Catelyn VII "As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree." Reading a whole bunch of what Gerold Hightower told Jaime would have been boring. To me, that could be a very interesting trait... Arthur Dayne is loyal to a fault, full of honor and chivalry, but he’s also not afraid to get his hands dirty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Just now, Mwm said: To me, that could be a very interesting trait... Arthur Dayne is loyal to a fault, full of honor and chivalry, but he’s also not afraid to get his hands dirty. I suppose in the right hands it could be, but that would be very difficult IMHO. Loyal to a fault, honor, chivalry all sound great as a blurb, but reading chapter on chapter on chapter of it is another matter. A character constantly wondering what society/the King/the Lord/whomever tells them to do and then systematically goes out and does it will always bore me to tears over the person who is left to make their own decisions within less restrictive boundaries, a character who actually has choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mwm Posted June 23, 2018 Author Share Posted June 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, Lollygag said: I suppose in the right hands it could be, but that would be very difficult IMHO. Loyal to a fault, honor, chivalry all sound great as a blurb, but reading chapter on chapter on chapter of it is another matter. A character constantly wondering what society/the King/the Lord/whomever tells them to do and then systematically goes out and does it will always bore me to tears over the person who is left to make their own decisions within less restrictive boundaries, a character who actually has choices. Do you have the same opinion of Ned; or did you find that more interesting because he was a lord that was active in making decisions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Just now, Mwm said: Do you have the same opinion of Ned; or did you find that more interesting because he was a lord that was active in making decisions? Yeah, Ned's much more interesting because the Lords of Westeros have a lot of free reign to rule as they will. Even as Hand, Ned had a very long leash because Robert was very hands-off and because of their friendship. Ned is one of my faves, but he wasn't as interesting until his chain of honor was challenged by complicated realities which forced him to think and make more difficult choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mwm Posted June 24, 2018 Author Share Posted June 24, 2018 7 hours ago, Lollygag said: Yeah, Ned's much more interesting because the Lords of Westeros have a lot of free reign to rule as they will. Even as Hand, Ned had a very long leash because Robert was very hands-off and because of their friendship. Ned is one of my faves, but he wasn't as interesting until his chain of honor was challenged by complicated realities which forced him to think and make more difficult choices. You know; now that I think about it, what I would really love is a miniseries featuring Dayne in some sort of prominent fashion-along with all the other interesting characters of that period. Perhaps a TV movie about the kings wood brotherhood-or with the fucking smiling knight. I know Martin said Roberts rebellion tv show is off the table, but this seems like a great middle ground to exploit such a rich era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkz Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 On 6/23/2018 at 10:17 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said: Arthur Dayne should’ve lived to be a POV character That is one way to look at it. I see it another way. Dayne is an interesting character from the past. The less we know about him, the greater his legend becomes. We don't need to know that he used to wet his bed until he was sixteen years old. I am not a fan of supposedly dead characters still being alive to come out and make an impact in the last book of the novels. Aegon is already one too many. Let it stop with him. Keep Jon Snow dead. Please do not bring back Ashara Dayne. Keep Syrio Forel dead and mention his name no more. I agree keep dead characters dead but Jon isn’t dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faera Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 I doubt GRRM would give him a POV because, if he'd lived he'd be in the same boat as Howland Reed in that he "knows too much!" and so can't be given a POV without coming out with too many details right out the gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mwm Posted June 24, 2018 Author Share Posted June 24, 2018 57 minutes ago, Faera said: I doubt GRRM would give him a POV because, if he'd lived he'd be in the same boat as Howland Reed in that he "knows too much!" and so can't be given a POV without coming out with too many details right out the gate. Ned also “knew too much”. But I am curious as to how reed will be handled, or if he’s even going to show up. Martin clearly wasn’t interested, in any case. I have a strong inkling it’s because he didn’t want to try to convey what an amazing fighter he was-tower of joy fight was never in any great detail-Jamie lost his hand/we never saw him fight except after spending years chained in squalor. I do feel he is an interesting enough character to warrant stronger treatment however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punzerknacker Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 I don't think Arthur Dayne is that interesting except as a foil for Jaime, which is his major function in the story. He was a glorified knight who was loyal even when it meant dying for a king/regime that was already dead. Is that an interesting character? At least he makes us ask ourselves if it's really that good to be honourable beyond reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mwm Posted June 25, 2018 Author Share Posted June 25, 2018 Just now, punzerknacker said: I don't think Arthur Dayne is that interesting except as a foil for Jaime, which is his major function in the story. He was a glorified knight who was loyal even when it meant dying for a king/regime that was already dead. Is that an interesting character? At least he makes us ask ourselves if it's really that good to be honourable beyond reason. Agree to disagree on that point I suppose. I think he’s interesting because he was suppose to be the best fighter in Westeros history, combined with the sword of the morning, Dawn mysterious intrigue. And I like the fact he’s so ruthless even though he’s honorable, or rather he’s not afraid to be if his orders are immoral, rather Ned is very moral. Hell just carve through men in the blink of an eye.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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