Roose killed Domeric Bolton

[Stormking902]

We all know Roose is one sick son of a b***h, and that he enjoys all of the things Ramsey does but is way more private about his vices and thus keeps them secret longer. What do we know of Domeric? Hes a sweet lad raised partly in the Vale by the Redforts, where he learned honour, and dignity and respect.

 

We learn that while in the Vale Domeric noticed the bond the Redfort brothers had and wished to seek out his bastard brother Ramsey ignoring Roose pleas to not seek him out, we know that Domeric died shortly after meeting his brother of a bad belly which Roose thinks Ramsey poisoned him but while they both lived they were friends. 

 

IMO Roose thought Domeric weak, because he had none of the morals and values Roose had, Roose believed the Dreadfort belongs to someone ruthless who would do what ever it takes to win Honour be dahmed so once he realised Ramsey was the true Bolton he killed soft hearted Domeric. 

[Eli Cross]

You could be right but the evidence is lacking.  Domeric was normal compared to Ramsay but he was not weak.  Suitable marriages could have been arranged for him to continue the Bolton line.  Roose is an elitists.  Go back to Harrenhal and read how he treated Nan.  Nan may not speak unless given permission by her lord.  Roose would value a true born son over a legalized bastard.  He could not know that far back if he would ever come to a position where he can get Ramsay legitimized.  Killing Domeric is taking a big risk for him to end up with a bastard for an heir.  Only the king can legitimize Ramsay and Roose was not a close friend of Robert Baratheon.  The legitimization of bastards is not done often.

[Stormking902]

38 minutes ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

You could be right but the evidence is lacking.  Domeric was normal compared to Ramsay but he was not weak.  Suitable marriages could have been arranged for him to continue the Bolton line.  Roose is an elitists.  Go back to Harrenhal and read how he treated Nan.  Nan may not speak unless given permission by her lord.  Roose would value a true born son over a legalized bastard.  He could not know that far back if he would ever come to a position where he can get Ramsay legitimized.  Killing Domeric is taking a big risk for him to end up with a bastard for an heir.  Only the king can legitimize Ramsay and Roose was not a close friend of Robert Baratheon.  The legitimization of bastards is not done often.

True but bastards have rights as well including the right to inherit there fathers lands and titles.......

Lord Hornwoods bastard son for example was being considered to take over as Lord of Hornwood by Bran and Maester Lewin. AND why Cat is scared of Jon Snow. 

 

[Vhagar's Ghost]

Ramsay is so much more crazy than Roose. Roose is a sick fuck but he's practical. Ramsay is just insane. I don't see any reason to believe he killed his own trueborn son.

[aryagonnakill#2]

While I agree its theoretically possible, I doubt it.  Roose had no reason to tell Arya about it all, it seems likely he believed what he was saying.  As other pointed out its a big risk, on top of what they pointed out people often operate under the rule of needing an heir and a spare.  

[Rufus Snow]

34 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Roose had no reason to tell Arya about it all

I don't recall Roose sharing any family gossip with Arya**... but that's by the by. I'm more convinced that it would be Ramsay rather than Roose who did for Domeric. And if Roose did try to keep the two apart, it suggests he was trying to hold on to 'an heir and a spare'. Especially after the other boys died in the crib...

 

** ah, Walda's letter....but that was only overheard and didn't give Arya the full tale

[Rufus Snow]

Here's what Roose told Reek (Theon Reek, not Reek Reek....)

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Reek III

"He is your only son."

"For the moment. I had another, once. Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first."

"Yes, m'lord. Domeric. I … I have heard his name …"

"Ramsay killed him. A sickness of the bowels, Maester Uthor says, but I say poison. In the Vale, Domeric had enjoyed the company of Redfort's sons. He wanted a brother by his side, so he rode up the Weeping Water to seek my bastard out. I forbade it, but Domeric was a man grown and thought that he knew better than his father. Now his bones lie beneath the Dreadfort with the bones of his brothers, who died still in the cradle, and I am left with Ramsay. Tell me, my lord … if the kinslayer is accursed, what is a father to do when one son slays another?"

The question frightened him. Once he had heard Skinner say that the Bastard had killed his trueborn brother, but he had never dared to believe it. He could be wrong. Brothers die sometimes, it does not mean that they were killed. My brothers died, and I never killed them. "My lord has a new wife to give him sons."

I'd forgotten that bit about being Lady Dustin's page. That might colour her relationship to Ramsay in ways I hadn't considered before...

And Skinner appears to confirm the tale... yet:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Reek III

"He … he said …" He said to tell you nothing. The words caught in his throat, and he began to cough and choke.

"Breathe deep. I know what he said. You're to spy on me and keep his secrets." Bolton chuckled. "As if he had secrets. Sour Alyn, Luton, Skinner, and the rest, where does he think they came from? Can he truly believe they are his men?"

So, we get the tale of it being Ramsay from Roose, and 'independently' confirmed by Ramsay's Roose's man... little and less, maybe. Only Roose and his man Skinner are telling the tale, and only telling it to Theon/Reek that we see. But with this here:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Reek III

Ramsay's face darkened. "If I cut off her teats and feed them to my girls, will she abide me then? Will she abide me if I strip off her skin to make myself a pair of boots?"

"Unlikely. And those boots would come dear. They would cost us Barrowton, House Dustin, and the Ryswells." Roose Bolton seated himself across the table from his son. "Barbrey Dustin is my second wife's younger sister, Rodrik Ryswell's daughter, sister to Roger, Rickard, and mine own namesake, Roose, cousin to the other Ryswells. She was fond of my late son and suspects you of having some part in his demise. Lady Barbrey is a woman who knows how to nurse a grievance. Be grateful for that. Barrowton is staunch for Bolton largely because she still holds Ned Stark to blame for her husband's death."

"Staunch?" Ramsay seethed. "All she does is spit on me. The day will come when I'll set her precious wooden town afire. Let her spit on that, see if it puts out the flames."

Ramsay makes noise about Lady Barbrey's attitude to him, but not a squeak of denial about killing Domeric, and later Roose is totally dispassionate about his expectation that Ramsay will kill any sons he has by Walda. It seems to be totally understood between the two of them that Ramsay has killed, and will continue to kill, his (half-)brother(s).

So, is that conclusive? Still not entirely, as during this conversation Roose has to remind Ramsay that he won't kill the Stark boys 'again', and that it was Theon Turncloak who burned Winterfell. This could suggest that the 'official' story is that Ramsay killed Domeric, and Roose is just reminding him of that 'fact' the same way he has to remind him that it wasn't 'officially' Ramsay who burnt Winterfell and killed Bran and Rickon. And this is kind of underlined by being said in the very presence of Theon Turncloak Reek - who similarly won't protest out loud that it wasn't him who committed those acts.

typically GRRM - heaps of evidence that could be read two different ways.... all we can say with any degree of certainty is that both Roose and Ramsay know that Domeric was killed, and they both know who by, and they are happy for the outside world to believe it was Ramsay. But it still doesn't necessarily mean it was Ramsay...

[Rufus Snow]

12 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself.

Of course there's no way they could have ever raced each other, as Lyanna died when Domeric was between 2 and 4 yrs old....

... I think this must be just a hangover from the famous timeline change in writing the early part of the story

[Chisa]

4 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Of course there's no way they could have ever raced each other, as Lyanna died when Domeric was between 2 and 4 yrs old....

... I think this must be just a hangover from the famous timeline change in writing the early part of the story

Ummm... It's not Lyanna being referenced but Alys Karstark,  the daughter of Rickard Karstark. 

[Rufus Snow]

5 hours ago, Chisa said:

Ummm... It's not Lyanna being referenced but Alys Karstark,  the daughter of Rickard Karstark. 

Balderdash!

Alys is some 2 to 4 years younger than Domeric, and unless you can give me a quote, has never been described as a great horsewoman anywhere in the text. Roose would not make a big fuss about Domeric being a better rider than a mere girl two to four years younger than him. It would be expected, without saying, not something to keep boasting about two or more years after his death.

" Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him ", Roose said.

Try it for size: " Not even Alys Karstark could outrace him " oh, whoop-di-whoop, big girl's blouse...

Or " Not even Lyanna Stark could outrace him " Now THAT is something a Northman would be proud of

And Roose said " that one was half a horse herself ". He wouldn't refer to Alys in the past tense, but it would be true of Lyanna who is repeatedly referred to as 'half a horse' and a great horsewoman.

Continuity error aside, this is clearly intended as a reference to Lyanna.

[Stormking902]

7 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Balderdash!

Alys is some 2 to 4 years younger than Domeric, and unless you can give me a quote, has never been described as a great horsewoman anywhere in the text. Roose would not make a big fuss about Domeric being a better rider than a mere girl two to four years younger than him. It would be expected, without saying, not something to keep boasting about two or more years after his death.

" Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him ", Roose said.

Try it for size: " Not even Alys Karstark could outrace him " oh, whoop-di-whoop, big girl's blouse...

Or " Not even Lyanna Stark could outrace him " Now THAT is something a Northman would be proud of

And Roose said " that one was half a horse herself ". He wouldn't refer to Alys in the past tense, but it would be true of Lyanna who is repeatedly referred to as 'half a horse' and a great horsewoman.

Continuity error aside, this is clearly intended as a reference to Lyanna.

Weird he would even think Alys before Lyanna lol, also Arya is described as having a horse face and looking like her Aunt in her youth and Lyanna is described as half horse :p. 

[Chisa]

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

Alys is some 2 to 4 years younger than Domeric,

 

11 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Of course there's no way they could have ever raced each other, as Lyanna died when Domeric was between 2 and 4 yrs old....

Maybe it won't convince you. But here is a little bit of evidence,  the enormous age difference. 

Also it was stated that Lyanna was good on horse but IIRC she was never called half a horse. The only person I remember being called half a horse so far is Lady Lance. 

Quote

Not even Lord Rickard's daughtercould outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself.

I don't know but when I read this, Lyanna never comes to my mind, but a certain grey girl on a dying horse

1. There is the Domeric-Lyanna age difference 

2. I don't think Roose Bolton would refer to the girl who made half the realm bleed as "that one"

3. As to why he would be proud of Domestic for racing a mere girl,  she was "mere" girl who was also half a horse. And he seems to speak from fondness.

4. Wouldn't he refer to Lyanna as "Lord Eddard's sister" rather than "Lord Rickard's daughter" or even maybe "the she-wolf" when talking to Theon.

 

[Rufus Snow]

It's really not that important, I was just flagging up that this is another example of the leftovers from George's big timeline shift.

 

20 minutes ago, Chisa said:

I don't know but when I read this, Lyanna never comes to my mind, but a certain grey girl on a dying horse

Sorry, I can't explain your lapse of attention

20 minutes ago, Chisa said:

1. There is the Domeric-Lyanna age difference 

Caused by the timeline being changed after GRRM started writing - this is another one of those bits he didn't get around to cleaning up....

20 minutes ago, Chisa said:

2. I don't think Roose Bolton would refer to the girl who made half the realm bleed as "that one"

Whyever not? It's perfectly good language usage.

20 minutes ago, Chisa said:

3. As to why he would be proud of Domestic for racing a mere girl,  she was "mere" girl who was also half a horse. And he seems to speak from fondness.

Yes, and that girl is meant to be Lyanna, who is set up throughout the whole story as an exemplary horsewoman, whilst Alys Karstack is seen sitting on one once....

Check the Wiki entry for Lyanna:

Quote

Lyanna is noted to have been a skilled rider who loved to ride.^[15][16] According to Harwin of Winterfell, Lyanna rode "like a northman",^[15] while Barbrey Dustin describes her as a centaur,^[16] and Roose Bolton states that Lyanna was "half a horse herself".^[17]

20 minutes ago, Chisa said:

4. Wouldn't he refer to Lyanna as "Lord Eddard's sister" rather than "Lord Rickard's daughter" or even maybe "the she-wolf" when talking to Theon.

Not necessarily - he was speaking in the context of 'Lady Dustin will tell you' - the same Barbrey (nee Ryswell) who is still bitter over losing her maidenhead to Lord Rickard's son, Brandon. That's the generation when commerce was closest between Ryswell/Dustin and Stark, so that's the obvious reference point

[Chisa]

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

Yes, and that girl is meant to be Lyanna, who is set up throughout the whole story as an exemplary horsewoman, whilst Alys Karstack is seen sitting on one once....

Check the Wiki entry for Lyanna:

The wiki entry is referencing to the same passage that we currently are having a discussion about. 

And I didn't say Alys Karstark is a horsewoman because of that one instance of her riding a horse. It seems more likely that G.R.R.Martin threw a little character for the girl while Roose reminisced about his son.

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

Whyever not? It's perfectly good language usage

I agree with you on this. Except,  take a contemporary who had no relation with him whatsoever and take a girl your son's age racing with him. 

"that one was half a horse herself"

sounds more like the latter. If you don't recall,  I have already mentioned that there seems to be fondness in his voice. 

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

Not necessarily - he was speaking in the context of 'Lady Dustin will tell you' - the same Barbrey (nee Ryswell) who is still bitter over losing her maidenhead to Lord Rickard's son, Brandon. That's the generation when commerce was closest between Ryswell/Dustin and Stark, so that's the obvious reference point

Lady Dustin. Thanks for bringing up the lady, because I am sure Lyanna was long dead when Domeric was old enough to race horses or be a page at Barrowton. 

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

Sorry, I can't explain your lapse of attention

Perhaps you're suggesting every woman who's good on a horse is related to Lyanna. Oh,  so maybe Lady Lance is actually a bastard of Oberyn and Lyanna?

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

It's really not that important, I was just flagging up that this is another example of the leftovers from George's big timeline shift.

Actually you may be right,  but it could easily be Alys Karstark. And she fits the timeline and seems to fit the description just fine too, seeing as how she seemed bold enough to marry a wildling.

[Angel Eyes]

I don't think he did, for two reasons. First, Roose is all about pragmatism and it's not smart to kill off your heir, especially if the only option is someone who is an ax-crazy psychopath. Second, sanity has advantages. It's the reason why Tywin Lannister trusts his brother Kevan with a lot more than he does Cersei. 

[John Suburbs]

On ‎7‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 4:06 PM, Stormking902 said:

We all know Roose is one sick son of a b***h, and that he enjoys all of the things Ramsey does but is way more private about his vices and thus keeps them secret longer. What do we know of Domeric? Hes a sweet lad raised partly in the Vale by the Redforts, where he learned honour, and dignity and respect.

 

We learn that while in the Vale Domeric noticed the bond the Redfort brothers had and wished to seek out his bastard brother Ramsey ignoring Roose pleas to not seek him out, we know that Domeric died shortly after meeting his brother of a bad belly which Roose thinks Ramsey poisoned him but while they both lived they were friends. 

 

IMO Roose thought Domeric weak, because he had none of the morals and values Roose had, Roose believed the Dreadfort belongs to someone ruthless who would do what ever it takes to win Honour be dahmed so once he realised Ramsey was the true Bolton he killed soft hearted Domeric. 

I think Rams killed Dom as well, but even if Roose did it, the question is why?

Why would Roose kill his trueborn son, who had all the makings of a champion jouster who could do nothing but bring honor and glory to House Bolton and probably secure a top-notch bride in the process? Why leave himself heir-less (har!) for more than 15 years with only a slim hope of passing his lands and titles to a legitimized bastard some day?

Alternatively, why simply forgive his psycho bastard who killed his paragon son, and then turn around and bestow him with legitimacy, lands, titles and a match to the leading house of the north?

People call it Bolt-on, and I know it sounds crazy, but I think Roose could not have Dom as his legitimate heir and he had to have Ramsay. Roose is the last son the Night's King who was rescued before he could be sacrificed -- that makes him half-human, half-Other, or maybe half-wight. This allows him to father children on human mothers, then at some point kill them, flay them (thus the sigil) and then don their skins to form a perfect likeness of the new lord -- except for the eyes, which remain pale as ice. (Honestly, it is impossible for any human, or any mammal for that matter, even albinos, to have completely white irises without being blind).

This is why Roose has to leech himself frequently (to prevent blood from pooling in his limbs), why he is virtually hairless, never sweats, and is able to silence even big louts like the Greatjon with barely a whisper. It also explains how he knew Ramsay was his at first glance, the eyes, and how he probably knew Dom was not his, and thus not eligible for the switch. Most likely, Dom is the son of Brandon, which is how Dom and Lyanna come to share a special affinity for horses -- almost as if their horses could sense their thoughts.

Sometime by the end of the series, expect Roose to die, and then see if Ramsay doesn't calm down a whole lot, start speaking in whispers and acquire a taste for frequent leechings.

 

[Stormking902]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

I think Rams killed Dom as well, but even if Roose did it, the question is why?

Why would Roose kill his trueborn son, who had all the makings of a champion jouster who could do nothing but bring honor and glory to House Bolton and probably secure a top-notch bride in the process? Why leave himself heir-less (har!) for more than 15 years with only a slim hope of passing his lands and titles to a legitimized bastard some day?

Alternatively, why simply forgive his psycho bastard who killed his paragon son, and then turn around and bestow him with legitimacy, lands, titles and a match to the leading house of the north?

People call it Bolt-on, and I know it sounds crazy, but I think Roose could not have Dom as his legitimate heir and he had to have Ramsay. Roose is the last son the Night's King who was rescued before he could be sacrificed -- that makes him half-human, half-Other, or maybe half-wight. This allows him to father children on human mothers, then at some point kill them, flay them (thus the sigil) and then don their skins to form a perfect likeness of the new lord -- except for the eyes, which remain pale as ice. (Honestly, it is impossible for any human, or any mammal for that matter, even albinos, to have completely white irises without being blind).

This is why Roose has to leech himself frequently (to prevent blood from pooling in his limbs), why he is virtually hairless, never sweats, and is able to silence even big louts like the Greatjon with barely a whisper. It also explains how he knew Ramsay was his at first glance, the eyes, and how he probably knew Dom was not his, and thus not eligible for the switch. Most likely, Dom is the son of Brandon, which is how Dom and Lyanna come to share a special affinity for horses -- almost as if their horses could sense their thoughts.

Sometime by the end of the series, expect Roose to die, and then see if Ramsay doesn't calm down a whole lot, start speaking in whispers and acquire a taste for frequent leechings.

 

Kinda far fetched but maybe lol, I am certain Roose needs Ramsey for something magic related and I also believe as you said Domeric is NOT Roose true born son and his second wife was cheating on him with a noble maybe even Brandon as you suggest and Barbrey Dustin knew this secret because Roose wife was her sister and Roose will flay her alive soon. 

[Rufus Snow]

55 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Why would Roose kill his trueborn son, who had all the makings of a champion jouster who could do nothing but bring honor and glory to House Bolton and probably secure a top-notch bride in the process? Why leave himself heir-less (har!) for more than 15 years with only a slim hope of passing his lands and titles to a legitimized bastard some day?

Dom only died a couple of years before AgoT starts, not 15. He was somewhere between 16 and 18yo, but the dating is vague.

57 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

It also explains how he knew Ramsay was his at first glance, the eyes, and how he probably knew Dom was not his, and thus not eligible for the switch. Most likely, Dom is the son of Brandon, which is how Dom and Lyanna come to share a special affinity for horses -- almost as if their horses could sense their thoughts.

Now that's an interesting thought - Brandon loved bloody swords, and he had his way with Barbrey, why not Bethany, too? Though it would take some cojones to put horns on Roose Bolton!!! But it would sure fuel Roose's dislike of the Starks.

I find the whole 'bolt-on' immortal vampire thing a bridge too far, personally, but there is nothing in the text to rule it out 100% either, so I'm keeping an open mind, but I think I'll be disappointed in GRRM if it's true. I'd have thought if there was any 'Other' DNA (or whatever...) the eyes would be blue, not white/grey/dirty snow.

But, yeah, there's got to be some reason the history of House Bolton is still so sketchy...

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Reek III

"You are mistaken. It is not good. No tales were ever told of me. Do you think I would be sitting here if it were otherwise? Your amusements are your own, I will not chide you on that count, but you must be more discreet. A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule. Make it yours."

"Is this why you left Lady Dustin and your fat pig wife? So you could come down here and tell me to be quiet?"

 

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Dom only died a couple of years before AgoT starts, not 15. He was somewhere between 16 and 18yo, but the dating is vague.

Now that's an interesting thought - Brandon loved bloody swords, and he had his way with Barbrey, why not Bethany, too? Though it would take some cojones to put horns on Roose Bolton!!! But it would sure fuel Roose's dislike of the Starks.

I find the whole 'bolt-on' immortal vampire thing a bridge too far, personally, but there is nothing in the text to rule it out 100% either, so I'm keeping an open mind, but I think I'll be disappointed in GRRM if it's true. I'd have thought if there was any 'Other' DNA (or whatever...) the eyes would be blue, not white/grey/dirty snow.

But, yeah, there's got to be some reason the history of House Bolton is still so sketchy...

 

Right, sorry, got confused on the timeline there. It was only a couple of years ago.

The theory also works in the context of Ice and Fire. Targs, of course, are Fire and may even have fused themselves with dragons in some kind of blood magic ritual centuries ago. Ice (Other) blood would have gotten into the Stark line via Roose, since the NK may very well have been a Stark, which means Roose could have been KoW at some point. Starks were said to have been flayed in the DF, so if there was a blood connection then Roose could have switched skins to become KoW. In fact, we have the tale of Brandon Ice-Eyes, who was most definitely a Stark and KoW, and probably Roose.

And with Jon being both a Stark and a Targaryen, he is the Song of Ice and Fire wrapped up on one character.

Who's to say what happens to eyes when grey Stark is fused with Other/wight blue, but the fact remains that white irises always result in blindness and all other sorts of eye problems. So that right there should be enough to conclude that Roose is not natural.

 

[Rufus Snow]

27 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

but the fact remains that white irises always result in blindness and all other sorts of eye problems. So that right there should be enough to conclude that Roose is not natural.

Maybe, but I conclude that GRRM didn't major in biology. It truly is his weakest suit. Did you know it would be pretty useless trying to grow oats or cotton in Westeros on Planetos, for example?