The execution of Janos Slynt was spot on vol 2

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Then I just take the non-action of the men at CB as confirmation that Slynt and Thorne's authority there was accepted? 

Isn't that like, basically the definition of "assuming"? 

[Rufus Snow]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

after all, would you trust a guy who accused of murdering your father when you were only following orders

Oh, I might have missed that... you have a quote for Jon accusing Slynt of this?

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Isn't that like, basically the definition of "assuming"? 

It is 'the assumption' of the men at Castle Black. I take their actions or inactions of people in Martinworld over speculation anytime.

If men from Eastwatch could not take command at CB under any circumstances then Slynt would never have taken command, no? But he did. And nobody said this was unlawful or illegal. In fact, nobody even freed the 'acting commander' Jon Snow from his ice cell. Why is that? Because Slynt had so big jowls? Or because Thorne was loved by so many people at CB? Or because they had come with an army overpowering Jon and his buddies?

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Oh, I might have missed that... you have a quote for Jon accusing Slynt of this?

It has been quoted by @Clegane'sPup on the last page:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon IX    "My father was murdered." Jon was past caring what they did to him, but he would not suffer any more lies about his father.    Slynt purpled. "Murder? You insolent pup.     King Robert was not even cold when Lord Eddard moved against his son."     He rose to his feet; a shorter man than Mormont, but thick about the chest and arms, with a gut to match. A small gold spear tipped with red enamel pinned his cloak at the shoulder. "Your father died by the sword, but he was highborn, a King's Hand. For you, a noose will serve. Ser Alliser, take this turncloak to an ice cell."  "My lord is wise." Ser Alliser seized Jon by the arm./

The context of the chapter makes it clear that Jon himself realizes that Pyke sent them help, and that they are there to take command - or do as they please as Jon and Noye did before, considering that the true castellan of CB is still the indomitable Ser Wynton Stout. Slynt is of the opinion he is the commander until the return of Marsh, and nobody denies that - not even Aemon.

Slynt also commanded Ser Glendon Hewett, indicating even more that he was the one sent to CB with authority to command there. Hewett is an Eastwatch man and now the castellan of the castle in Pyke's absence.

[Clegane'sPup]

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is 'the assumption' of the men at Castle Black. I take their actions or inactions of people in Martinworld over speculation anytime.

There it is comedy.

Truth be known 

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It has been quoted by @Clegane'sPup on the last page:

Nobody reads what I type much less do they read the thread/tread. 

[Rufus Snow]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It has been quoted by @Clegane'sPup on the last page:

Thank you (and Cleg's pup), I had forgotten that exchange.

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The context of the chapter makes it clear that Jon himself realizes that Pyke sent them help, and that they are there to take command - or do as they please as Jon and Noye did before, considering that the true castellan of CB is still the indomitable Ser Wynton Stout. Slynt is of the opinion he is the commander until the return of Marsh, and nobody denies that - not even Aemon.

Slynt also commanded Ser Glendon Hewett, indicating even more that he was the one sent to CB with authority to command there. Hewett is an Eastwatch man and now the castellan of the castle in Pyke's absence.

I still think it's an assumption to leap from CB men not opposing Slynt and Thorne, to those two having been granted any actual authority by anyone with the power to do so. As your namesake reminds us, 'Power resides where men believe it does'. Few would oppose Thorne even if they think he is acting ultra vires, cos he's kinda scary.... And I don't believe Slynt is any more than Thorne's sock puppet at this point. But YMMV, of couse...

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 I gotta tell ya sometimes your shite frightens me.

Seriously? @Lord Varys saying Jon isn't being ethical as a black brother by accusing  Slynt of murder frightens you?  Like what specificly do you find so frightening in his post? 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Thank you (and Cleg's pup), I had forgotten that exchange.

I still think it's an assumption to leap from CB men not opposing Slynt and Thorne, to those two having been granted any actual authority by anyone with the power to do so. As your namesake reminds us, 'Power resides where men believe it does'. Few would oppose Thorne even if they think he is acting ultra vires, cos he's kinda scary.... And I don't believe Slynt is any more than Thorne's sock puppet at this point. But YMMV, of couse...

Also the timing of this must be taken into consideration IMO.

[Clegane'sPup]

Just now, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Seriously? @Lord Varys saying Jon isn't being ethical as a black brother by accusing  Slynt of murder frightens you?  Like what specificly do you find so frightening in his post? 

I'm gonna venture to say you have not read the five books.

I'm gonna venture to say your thin skin arse don't know shyte.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That is a deliberate twisting of the facts. Stannis/Mel did not burn Mance, correct, but they also pointed it out repeatedly that 'Rattleshirt' was now Jon's man. He was under his jurisdiction. Jon had any reason and any right (as he himself admits when he regrets not killing Mance immediately) to execute Mance as soon as he realized that Mance was still there.

And sure - Jon could also have put down Melisandre for what she did there. He doesn't know what she can do and might be stupid enough to think he can actually try to harm her and live. She committed a crime and Stannis is far away and might be killed by the Boltons. It wouldn't be advisable but he could have tried to do it.

But what he could have definitely done is pretty obvious: Call his men, arrest Mance, drag him outside, denounce Stannis Baratheon and his red whore as the liars they are, get himself a block and sever Mance's head from his shoulders. The man deserved it. It would have been the right thing to do. Just as it was the right thing to take the head of Rickard Karstark. Just as it would have been the right thing to punish Jaime and Tywin for the Sack

It'd just be weird to call Stannis a liar-Stannis in Jon mind has no idea about the trick. It would have been the just thing to take Mance's head. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

21 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I'm gonna venture to say you have not read the five books.

I'm gonna venture to say your thin skin arse don't know shyte.

You're accusing me of having thin skin while you're saying you're frightened of stranger on the Internet saying Jon Snow didn't act ethical when he accused and lambasted  Slynt of murdering Eddard Stark?  Lol. Seriously though what exactly do you find frightening about @Lord Varys post?  

I'm going to venture to say you're intelligent to know by now, black brothers are supposed to forget all the nonesense each other did prior to joining; @Lord Varys is right, Ramsey Bolton, or Theon Greyjoy could have taken the black and Jon would still be acting unethical even  if he just verbally attacked each for the crimes each had committed against house Stark. That stuff simply is not supposed to matter anymore.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Thank you (and Cleg's pup), I had forgotten that exchange.

I still think it's an assumption to leap from CB men not opposing Slynt and Thorne, to those two having been granted any actual authority by anyone with the power to do so. As your namesake reminds us, 'Power resides where men believe it does'. Few would oppose Thorne even if they think he is acting ultra vires, cos he's kinda scary.... And I don't believe Slynt is any more than Thorne's sock puppet at this point. But YMMV, of couse...

I suggest you reread the entire chapter. Slynt is calling the shots. Thorne is his buddy, but Slynt is calling the shots. And nobody contradicts when he says he is the commander until Marsh returns.

One can dance around this - but Slynt has at least as much authority to command at CB as Noye or Jon did. Or even more, considering that Slynt and Thorne and Hewett were sent by an actual commander of the NW whereas nobody authorized Noye or Jon to take command.

Man, rereading that stuff has shown me again what an asshole Thorne is. Slynt is the one whose feelings for Jon are based on actual information from Rattleshirt and Thorne - but it is really Thorne who loathes the bastard, the Starks, and even Aemon to a very high degree. He is poisoning Slynt's mind against Jon, not the other way around.

Jon should have killed Thorne. Slynt he could have made in his personal fool. The man is a windbag, not some competent plotter.

[Rufus Snow]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I suggest you reread the entire chapter. Slynt is calling the shots. Thorne is his buddy, but Slynt is calling the shots. And nobody contradicts when he says he is the commander until Marsh returns.

One can dance around this - but Slynt has at least as much authority to command at CB as Noye or Jon did. Or even more, considering that Slynt and Thorne and Hewett were sent by an actual commander of the NW whereas nobody authorized Noye or Jon to take command.

Man, rereading that stuff has shown me again what an asshole Thorne is. Slynt is the one whose feelings for Jon are based on actual information from Rattleshirt and Thorne - but it is really Thorne who loathes the bastard, the Starks, and even Aemon to a very high degree. He is poisoning Slynt's mind against Jon, not the other way around.

Jon should have killed Thorne. Slynt he could have made in his personal fool. The man is a windbag, not some competent plotter.

Damnit, LV... how do you expect me to sleep tonight now I know there's so much we do agree on

 

Although the first couple of lines, I disagree. I believe Slynt believes he's calling the shots, but I also believe that Thorne's pulling his strings more often than not. To such a degree that he probably believed Thorne 'had his back' if he mutinied. Ooooops.....

[Clegane'sPup]

 

10 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You're accusing me of having thin skin while you're saying you're frightened of stranger on the Internet saying Jon Snow didn't act ethical when he accused and lambasted  Slynt of murdering Eddard Stark?  Lol. Seriously though what exactly do you find frightening about @Lord Varys post?  

Ach,, no me lady. I would never do such a thing.

You want a serious answer.

Back up and read the thread.

 

[kissdbyfire]

@Lord Varys, I disagree. Slynt certainly thinks and acts as if he's the big kahuna, but he's Thorne's puppet. It's, again, spelled out and it's not misdirection. 

“We’re sending you, Lord Snow.” Ser Alliser smiled.
“Me.” Jon’s voice was flat. “Why me?”
“You rode with these wildlings,” said Thorne. “Mance Rayder knows you. He will be more inclined to trust you.”
That was so wrong Jon might have laughed. “You’ve got it backward. Mance suspected me from the first. If I show up in his camp wearing a black cloak again and speaking for the Night’s Watch, he’ll know that I betrayed him.”
“He asked for an envoy, we are sending one,” said Slynt. “If you are too craven to face this turncloak king, we can return you to your ice cell. This time without the furs, I think. Yes.”
“No need for that, my lord,” said Ser Alliser. “Lord Snow will do as we ask. He wants to show us that he is no turncloak. He wants to prove himself a loyal man of the Night’s Watch.”
Thorne was much the more clever of the two, Jon realized; this had his stink all over it. He was trapped. “I’ll go,” he said in a clipped, curt voice.”

LV, bad quoting. Like @Rufus Snow, I disagree w/ the idea that Slynt is calling the shots, but then it seems you do too based on the rest of your post? 

[Varysblackfyre321]

Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

 

Ach,, no me lady. I would never do such a thing.

You want a serious answer.

Back up and read the thread.

 

I don't know if you can give a serious answer to my question; but I'm certian the answer will be interesting at least. What specificly do you find "frightening" in LV's post? What scared you? Do you find the idea of brothers in the Watch having to ignore each other's crimes(no matter how heinous),  prior to joining  the watch utterly scary? 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On August 4, 2018 at 4:38 PM, Ygrain said:

impulsive:

"acting or done without forethought"

Dunno about you, but that part you have just quoted sounds awfully much like forethought to the decision to have Slynt executed. Jon is simply a fast thinker, so he is able to go through the alternatives on the spot.

You mean, the guy who consorted with a fire witch to murder his brother, and whom the moral compass of Westeros described as harsh? I don't know if GRRM intended Stannis to be likeable but I'm really not a Stannis fan, sorry.

Eddard Stark described Stannis as just bit harsh-not immoral.  And his brother was prepared to kill him as well. Yeah no, you don't have to be a Stannis fan to recognize the guy is not of the same tier of likes of the likes of Euron or Ramsey-you're entire point here is that only the only lords we've seen use mutilation as punishment are utterly dark/evil lords-that simply is not true. Jon can geld or take Slynt's tongue without him being looked at as anymore wretched than he was after he executed Slynt.  

[Clegane'sPup]

17 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don't know if you can give a serious answer to my question; but I'm certian the answer will be interesting at least. What specificly do you find "frightening" in LV's post? What scared you? Do you find the idea of brothers in the Watch having to ignore each other's crimes(no matter how heinous),  prior to joining  the watch utterly scary? 

Sure I can give you a serious answer.

It was jape between me and LV. LV waved me off or ignored my chatter.

You flap your trap often enough without supporting back up.

[Bernie Mac]

18 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Sigh. Impulsive doesn't mean just fast, impulsive means without thinking.

Well that is impossible, we are incapable of making a decision without thinking about it. An impulsive purchase is still something that is thought about. an impulsive decision is something that is quickly thought about. 

Jon in the space of a second went from thinking of putting Slynt in a cell for a few days to executing him, it is the very definition of an impulsive decision. All the sighing in the world is not going to change that.  

 

18 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Jon thought his decision through,

lol no, he didn't. we see the thought process, it was done mid sentence, it was the opposite of thorough. Most people spend longer thinking if they want fries with their burger than the time it took for Jon to sentence someone to death

18 hours ago, Ygrain said:

therefore it wasn't impulsive.

of course it was impulsive, it took a second for him to come to that conclusion. 

18 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You can use a different wording to argue your case, 

why would I need to, the correct word was used

18 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

I believe you ignored the question I poised somewhere above:

there is over 50 pages on this topic in the last couple of weeks, I am not going to reply to every post, that is not me ignoring you. 

18 hours ago, Ygrain said:

when a judge passes a sentence in present-day legal system, isn't the future risk to the society taken into question when determining the severity of the sentence?

a judge can only try someone for the crime they commited, repeat offenders who have been tried before can get longer punishments

This is not the case here, since Slynt's past life has been wiped clean by watch laws he can only be tried for what he did, which was turn down an order and insult his commander, instead he is murdered on the trumped up charge ( in Jon's head) that he will lead a mutiny against him. 

It's not justice. 

 

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

You said Slynt and Thorne sent Jon to treat w/ Mance because he was the only one suited for the job b/c he'd spent time w/ the free folk or something to that effect. And that is very obviously not true.

Which is true, which other brother had spent time with Mance and been accepted as part of his 'crew'?

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

While I agree that Tywin had nothing to do w/ it, they sent Jon to treat w/ Mance hoping he'd get killed.

No, I imagine they were genuinely hoping he would have successfully killed Mance.  Mance was their biggest concern. 

If they were that invested in killing Jon they could have arranged an accident while he was in a cell. 

 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

11 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Eddard Stark described Stannis as just bit harsh-not immoral.

Did he? Show it.

12 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And his brother was prepared to kill him as well.

Whose brother was prepared to do what?

MY CAT IS SNORING.

14 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah no, you don't have to be a Stannis fan to recognize the guy is not of the same tier of likes of the likes of Euron or Ramsey-

I'm gonna give up now you win

 

15 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Eddard Stark described Stannis as just bit harsh-not immoral.  And his brother was prepared to kill him as well. Yeah no, you don't have to be a Stannis fan to recognize the guy is not of the same tier of likes of the likes of Euron or Ramsey-you're entire point here is that only the only lords we've seen use mutilation as punishment are utterly dark/evil lords-that simply is not true. Jon can geld or take Slynt's tongue without him being looked at as anymore wretched than he was after he executed Slynt.  

Okee dokee sleep tight.