Why no stark spies

[Angel Eyes]

17 hours ago, Trefayne said:

This has always annoyed me a little. He is so detailed and thorough in some aspects of castle/feudal life, like paragraph after paragraph about food and heraldry, but at the same time manages to boil down the incredibly convoluted social structure from about nine levels in the commons and seven levels in the nobility/royalty to two in the commons and three in the nobility/royalty.

My guess is that he didn't want to go into too much detail regarding the sigils. Ramsay's sigil would be pretty complex by ADWD; he'd have the Bolton flayed man, the Hornwood moose, and the Stark direwolf.

18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But I believe Martin has said that it was an error on his part that there weren't more vassal children in Winterfell, either as pages or serving maids. If there were, there probably would have been a lot more intrigue between the Starks and their bannermen, and between rival bannermen as well.

I've wondered this as well. It's not unheard of to have two or more people being fostered under one roof, since Ned and Robert were fostered by Jon Arryn. 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

My guess is that he didn't want to go into too much detail regarding the sigils. Ramsay's sigil would be pretty complex by ADWD; he'd have the Bolton flayed man, the Hornwood moose, and the Stark direwolf.

I'm not sure how what you said applies to what you quoted from me. Making sigils and coats of arms is rather straightforward as the heraldic rules are well established and clear. The choice of devices is the only place for discussion among the heralds and the seeker of arms; that is, in our history. In the books we are put in the strange position of having it pushed on us as immensely important to the point of characters rattling off house names and sigils and affiliations, but almost nothing about the mechanisms behind it. We could have traded some of those feast menus and itineraries for a short lecture from a maester or two about how house heraldry works.

As to what I was saying in that quote you posted, I was talking about the huge simplification of social strata from actual medieval life. Everyone was always looking to see if they were of a higher social class than others, even in the lower classes. It gave them status in the community. It's how one commoner could exert either social or economic influence over another just like the aristocracy did to the commons. It also informed others about their legal rights. Serfs were basically owned, freemen were not and had legal rights. So, if you mistreated a serf, you'd answer to his/her lord. If you mistreated a freeman, they could take you to the court of the lord and ask for redress.

Also, the only freeman occupation in Westeros seems to be sellsword. Everyone else in the commons seems to fall into the serf (smallfolk) class or gentry (knight) class, but then GRRM includes the smaller class distinction about how hedge knights are considered inferior to their house attached brothers in arms. In reality, there were (at times) four classes of serf, the freemen, and four classes of gentry. The same is done to the nobility, where some distinction about who outranks who would be nice at times. Most of the time it is clear who is in charge, but the lower echelons of authority always seem to come down to who has the will to smash the other guy's face in first.

 

[Angel Eyes]

8 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

I'm not sure how what you said applies to what you quoted from me. Making sigils and coats of arms is rather straightforward as the heraldic rules are well established and clear. The choice of devices is the only place for discussion among the heralds and the seeker of arms; that is, in our history. In the books we are put in the strange position of having it pushed on us as immensely important to the point of characters rattling off house names and sigils and affiliations, but almost nothing about the mechanisms behind it. We could have traded some of those feast menus and itineraries for a short lecture from a maester or two about how house heraldry works.

 

I was mainly thinking of the most complex accumulation of titles I could find in Westeros, which is Ramsay Snow.

On another note, what are the tiers of nobility in a place like the North, where there are few knightly houses? Are the Boltons, Karstarks, Umbers and Manderlys all on the same tier?

[Three-Fingered Pete]

13 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I was mainly thinking of the most complex accumulation of titles I could find in Westeros, which is Ramsay Snow.

On another note, what are the tiers of nobility in a place like the North, where there are few knightly houses? Are the Boltons, Karstarks, Umbers and Manderlys all on the same tier?

Well, this is what heralds are for, after all.

Essentially, until the Boltons got up-jumped. They would have all been at the level of count/earl under the Starks, who would be dukes. I suppose the Manderlys could be at the marquis/marquess/margrave level since they hold an important port that makes them rich and influential.

Houses like the Mormonts and Reeds would be at the baron level and the Glovers probably were about at viscount level since they were relatively poor, but had to counter the Ironborn.

[John Suburbs]

8 hours ago, Jaak said:

That one might plausibly have been error on Eddard's part rather than George's. Though George confesses to it.

The bigger part is the stewards. In peacetime, Winterfell needs to house 200 soldiers, and unspecified numbers of noncombatant servants and family members.

Yet when Eddard leaves with 50 soldiers, leaving behind 150 soldiers and unspecified number of servants, it is specified how Eddard and Catelyn both neglecting to appoint replacement to departing Vayon Poole creates a deadlock. Vayon's department is not large enough and does not have an obvious second or third in charge.

 

How big would be steward's department for a real life medieval garrison of 200 men?

This flaw appears elsewhere as well. Why does Grand Maester Pycelle not have a veritable army of junior maesters and acolytes to help him attend to his duties? Why is Petyr Baelish, the Master of Coin, taking the minutes at court and small council meetings when this job of recording history should go a maester with the appropriate links in his chain?

And yet, certain functions seem to have an abundance of lackeys, like in the black cells:

Quote

Six prisoners, Jaime thought sourly, while we pay wages for twenty turnkeys, six undergaolors, a chief undergaolor, a gaolor, and a King's Justice.

 

[John Suburbs]

8 hours ago, BigBoss1 said:

Saying he didn't have any training is nonsense, he was the spare if the heir died and with the high rate of mortality of Westeros training just the heir is stupid, hell, even a bastard like Jon snow was trained to be lord.

But Ned never got trained in the kind of subterfuge that lords deal with. Ned was, what, eight when he left for the Eyrie? So it looked like he was trained in honor and swords and other things, but not in the practical duties required of a lord, which makes sense because he was never supposed to become one.

Jon was never trained to be a lord. He was trained at arms, but not in lordship -- he doesn't even get to sit at table with the Starks.

I agree that it makes logical sense to train all your sons for lordship, but this apparently didn't happen with the Starks. Even Ned laments:

Quote

"Brandon. Yes, Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

And because Ned never received the proper training, he had no knowledge to pass down to his sons except what he was told: behave honorably in all things. He missed the most crucial lesson: always do what is best for your house and your realm, not yourself.

[John Suburbs]

5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I've wondered this as well. It's not unheard of to have two or more people being fostered under one roof, since Ned and Robert were fostered by Jon Arryn. 

I think it's one of the things that Martin has owned up to. Rodrick, at least, should have a page from another house, and non-knights like Jory and even Ned himself should have young trainees from among the banners. Catelyn should have an Umber or a Ryswell or a Manderly as a chambermaid, Robb should have been fostered out long ago...

Life at Winterfell was too insular.

[Angel Eyes]

10 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Well, this is what heralds are for, after all.

Essentially, until the Boltons got up-jumped. They would have all been at the level of count/earl under the Starks, who would be dukes. I suppose the Manderlys could be at the marquis/marquess/margrave level since they hold an important port that makes them rich and influential.

Houses like the Mormonts and Reeds would be at the baron level and the Glovers probably were about at viscount level since they were relatively poor, but had to counter the Ironborn.

That would actually be pretty funny for the Boltons, since Roose is based off of Vlad the Impaler, who also inspired Count Dracula. 

That being said, does being a Warden mean you’re on a higher scale Lord Paramount i.e. are the Tullys on the same level as the Starks?

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I think it's one of the things that Martin has owned up to. Rodrick, at least, should have a page from another house, and non-knights like Jory and even Ned himself should have young trainees from among the banners. Catelyn should have an Umber or a Ryswell or a Manderly as a chambermaid, Robb should have been fostered out long ago...

Life at Winterfell was too insular.

Yeah, Robb should have been fostered, even betrothed. Catelyn was 12 and Brandon 14 when they were betrothed. And not like there aren’t options, there’s Alys Karstark, the Greatjon has daughters, Wynafryd and Wylla Manderly, Meera Reed, the Mormont girls... In fact, I don’t understand why Rickard Karstark settled for Daryn Hornwood for Alys.

I was actually thinking of an idea for a fanfic where Ned is fostering Jorah’s son (Jorah’s Glover wife lived a little longer) at Winterfell after Jorah fled to Essos and he (the son) is attracted to Sansa. 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

7 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

That being said, does being a Warden mean you’re on a higher scale Lord Paramount i.e. are the Tullys on the same level as the Starks?

If I'm reading the meaning of Lord Paramount correctly in the context of the books it is the highest authority in that fiefdom. Eddard is Lord Paramount as well as Warden of the North.

I have never heard the Tullys referred to as the Wardens of Riverlands, so they would more less be at the level of marquis/marquess/margrave since they hold sway over the gateway lands from north to south and east to west. And river trade is very profitable since transportation costs are minimal. They also don't seem to answer to any of the Wardens which means they are only vassals to the crown, another feather in their cap.

This is why their women are an acceptable match for the Stark and Arryn men. Lord Tully gets his genes into a better class of family and the Wardens get a friendly and powerful lord for their vanguard lands. It is also why Lord Frey is always trying to get his genes into the Tully line. He is at the baron level, but very rich due to his stranglehold on the river bridge, so his daughters are a possible match for Tully men. Getting a Stark male was a boon he couldn't pass up and why he was so pissed about Robb's betrayal.

[direpupy]

5 hours ago, Trefayne said:

I have never heard the Tullys referred to as the Wardens of Riverlands, so they would more less be at the level of marquis/marquess/margrave since they hold sway over the gateway lands from north to south and east to west. And river trade is very profitable since transportation costs are minimal. They also don't seem to answer to any of the Wardens which means they are only vassals to the crown, another feather in their cap.

This is not entirely correct, warden is a military title (at least in the books) in times of war each of the four wardens (north, east, south, west) is in charge of a quarter of the realms forces. In peacetime its more of an honorary title. So the Tullys would fall under the command of one of the wardens during times of war.

you could compare it to medieval marshals who lead army's in the name of there king.

[Angel Eyes]

8 hours ago, Trefayne said:

 

This is why their women are an acceptable match for the Stark and Arryn men. Lord Tully gets his genes into a better class of family and the Wardens get a friendly and powerful lord for their vanguard lands. It is also why Lord Frey is always trying to get his genes into the Tully line. He is at the baron level, but very rich due to his stranglehold on the river bridge, so his daughters are a possible match for Tully men. Getting a Stark male was a boon he couldn't pass up and why he was so pissed about Robb's betrayal.

Makes me wonder why Wader didn’t make Robb marry one of his daughters or granddaughters right off the bat before they crossed the Twins. Hoster Tully did the same thing for Robert’s Rebellion, the Rebels didn’t get his men until the marriage offer was sealed for Ned and Catelyn and Jon and Lysa. And the Rebels weren’t on a time crunch. Though Hoster is a bit of a dick...

[Three-Fingered Pete]

4 hours ago, direpupy said:

This is not entirely correct, warden is a military title (at least in the books) in times of war each of the four wardens (north, east, south, west) is in charge of a quarter of the realms forces. In peacetime its more of an honorary title. So the Tullys would fall under the command of one of the wardens during times of war.

you could compare it to medieval marshals who lead army's in the name of there king.

It's funny that you bring that up since the origin of the word marshal is marches, i.e. the frontier lands most likely to be the point of invasion in a realm. This in turn led to the titles of marquis in France, marquess in the UK and margrave in Germany. This is why those titles are one cut above a count/earl. Viscount, count/earl and marquis/marquess/margrave are all just different levels of titles for the lord and administrator of a county.

It was the military and/or economic value of the county that led to the parsing of titles among the middle peerage. A county that kept the realm safe from invasion and/or one that had a boon of economic resources, say like gold, silver or iron mines, would be held as more valuable than one that was just a lot of good farm land in the relative safety of the realms interior. A county that needed administrating, but had middling or poor resources and/or little strategic value would be the jurisdiction of a viscount (or lower).

Your example above doesn't seem to work out for Westeros. That dynamic only comes into play when the kingdom as a whole goes to war. Westeros and Essos don't seem to have the warring nature of England and the continent. There have been invasions/incursions to be sure, but it doesn't seem that the Seven Kingdoms go to war as a unified entity very much. It's probably one of the reasons why it's so hard to get them on board with the Other/wight problem.

Given the structure presented in the books, the Tullys would follow either the Starks or Arryns (or both) in their conquest ambitions, but if the realm as a whole went to war against an outside aggressor, the Tullys would be directly under Crown control unless directed or allowed by the Crown to be under the authority of any of the four Wardens or possibly even the Dornish.

 

EDIT: Boy, has this thread gone really far afield! My apologies to The OP. What was the original question?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 hour ago, Trefayne said:

Given the structure presented in the books, the Tullys would follow either the Starks or Arryns (or both) in their conquest ambitions, but if the realm as a whole went to war against an outside aggressor, the Tullys would be directly under Crown control unless directed or allowed by the Crown to be under the authority of any of the four Wardens or possibly even the Dornish.

I've long had a sneaking suspicion that the Warden title was something that GRRM dreamt up, but never really fleshed out, as it does seem pretty redundant. The Lord Paramount role has clear authority over its region. The Warden less so.

Robert clearly considers it important when fearing a Dothraki invasion, but my I think it highly unlikely that it gives a lord any real authority over those outside his own lands. Mace Tyrell is Warden of the South, but I don't see the Dornish blindly following his orders as a result.

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Makes me wonder why Wader didn’t make Robb marry one of his daughters or granddaughters right off the bat before they crossed the Twins. Hoster Tully did the same thing for Robert’s Rebellion, the Rebels didn’t get his men until the marriage offer was sealed for Ned and Catelyn and Jon and Lysa. And the Rebels weren’t on a time crunch. Though Hoster is a bit of a dick...

A simple marriage could have been arranged in a day, but then they would need to consummate for a good two weeks to give reasonable assurance that an heir is on the way. During RR, Ned and Jon Arryn had some time to spare, but Robb does not. He has to get to Riverrun as quickly as possible to prevent Tywin from linking up with Jaime.

[direpupy]

1 hour ago, Trefayne said:

It's funny that you bring that up since the origin of the word marshal is marches, i.e. the frontier lands most likely to be the point of invasion in a realm. This in turn led to the titles of marquis in France, marquess in the UK and margrave in Germany. This is why those titles are one cut above a count/earl. Viscount, count/earl and marquis/marquess/margrave are all just different levels of titles for the lord and administrator of a county.

It was the military and/or economic value of the county that led to the parsing of titles among the middle peerage. A county that kept the realm safe from invasion and/or one that had a boon of economic resources, say like gold, silver or iron mines, would be held as more valuable than one that was just a lot of good farm land in the relative safety of the realms interior. A county that needed administrating, but had middling or poor resources and/or little strategic value would be the jurisdiction of a viscount (or lower).

Your example above doesn't seem to work out for Westeros. That dynamic only comes into play when the kingdom as a whole goes to war. Westeros and Essos don't seem to have the warring nature of England and the continent. There have been invasions/incursions to be sure, but it doesn't seem that the Seven Kingdoms go to war as a unified entity very much. It's probably one of the reasons why it's so hard to get them on board with the Other/wight problem.

Given the structure presented in the books, the Tullys would follow either the Starks or Arryns (or both) in their conquest ambitions, but if the realm as a whole went to war against an outside aggressor, the Tullys would be directly under Crown control unless directed or allowed by the Crown to be under the authority of any of the four Wardens or possibly even the Dornish.

The fact that it does not happen does not mean that it is not what the warden title is meant for. 

Actually GRRM himself in a SSM said that in theory each of the four wardens is the supreme general of one of the four regions (north, east, south and west) and that the title is supposed to prevent two lord paramount's from arguing who is in command when the king is not present. I will post the link to the SSM below its the answer to the last of the questions on the page so you have to scroll all the way down for it.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Social_Structure_Moat_Cailin_and_More

As to the first two paragraphs of your post, i do appreciate your effort here but you are not telling me something new, i am a history mayor so thanks but i already knew all of this. But again i do appreciate that you are trying to share your knowledge.

As to my example i meant marshal as in the latter medieval marshal's of France like  Arnoul d'Audrehem or Louis de Sancerre, not they earlier ones that you speak off.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

55 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I've long had a sneaking suspicion that the Warden title was something that GRRM dreamt up, but never really fleshed out, as it does seem pretty redundant. The Lord Paramount role has clear authority over its region. The Warden less so.

Robert clearly considers it important when fearing a Dothraki invasion, but my I think it highly unlikely that it gives a lord any real authority over those outside his own lands. Mace Tyrell is Warden of the South, but I don't see the Dornish blindly following his orders as a result.

The Dornish are a special case since they are semiautonomous. Doran still get's to call himself Prince, so he is at the level of an archduke (and that's really shoehorning him in; Dorne sticks out like a sore thumb).

A lord never has lawful authority over anyone outside his lands, for that he must go to the person's lord or the Crown. In a military setting, you follow the orders of the person put in charge, regardless of social rank, although it was usually someone of high birth. Actually, the best (and worst) job to have in a military campaign in those days was sergeant major.

24 minutes ago, direpupy said:

The fact that it does not happen does not mean that it is not what the warden title is meant for. 

Actually GRRM himself in a SSM said that in theory each of the four wardens is the supreme general of one of the four regions (north, east, south and west) and that the title is supposed to prevent two lord paramount's from arguing who is in command when the king is not present. I will post the link to the SSM below its the answer to the last of the questions on the page so you have to scroll all the way down for it.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Social_Structure_Moat_Cailin_and_More

As to the first two paragraphs of your post, i do appreciate your effort here but you are not telling me something new, i am a history mayor so thanks but i already knew all of this. But again i do appreciate that you are trying to share your knowledge.

As to my example i meant marshal as in the latter medieval marshal's of France like  Arnoul d'Audrehem or Louis de Sancerre, not they earlier ones that you speak off.

Thanks for the link! Context is always nice when speculating.

Sorry, I forgot to ask for your resume!  I'm a medieval archeology major myself, so I do tend to prattle on about this stuff. It's also why I get mildly miffed when writers overlook good material for background characters and settings like we are discussing here.

Oh, I got your reference, but you got me going on another tangent. Thread hijack complete!

 

[Angel Eyes]

50 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

A simple marriage could have been arranged in a day, but then they would need to consummate for a good two weeks to give reasonable assurance that an heir is on the way. During RR, Ned and Jon Arryn had some time to spare, but Robb does not. He has to get to Riverrun as quickly as possible to prevent Tywin from linking up with Jaime.

I thought Ned and Catelyn had only one night together.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I thought Ned and Catelyn had only one night together.

I though Jon was older than Robb, hence part of the problem Catelyn had with him? Or am I misremembering?

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, Trefayne said:

I though Jon was older than Robb, hence part of the problem Catelyn had with him? Or am I misremembering?

Nobody’s answered whether or not Jon is older than Robb.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

9 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

The Dornish are a special case since they are semiautonomous.

To be fair, one could substitute Storm Lords for Dornish and my point would still stand.