Aegon V tried to use blood magic to hatch the dragons and DUNK stopped him

[goldenlion]

https://www.quora.com/Was-Aegon-V-trying-to-perform-blood-magic-to-birth-dragons-but-instead-it-led-to-the-birth-of-Rhaegar-Targaryen/answer/Kelsey-L-Hayes?share=ef7a3d43&srid=5inM

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Rhaegar’s impending birth was definitely on Aegon V’s radar since this was ostensibly what compelled him to call the family to Summerhall. This was the “public” reason why Aegon V gathered his family even though it stands to reason that of course he was also at this same time planning the egg-hatching ritual.

My broad interpretation of Summerhall has typically been, and remains, that Aegon V heard an omen somewhere (perhaps even from the Ghost of High Heart, who we know was around then and “gorged on grief” at Summerhall) that a “dragon” would hatch at Summerhall. Aegon took the prophecy literally and tried to hatch literal dragons. The “dragon” that hatched was actually metaphorical in nature, and was Rhaegar. Rhaegar in turn later made this connection himself while studying the Summerhall tragedy and prophecy, and it explains why he had such a melancholic connection to Summerhall — he was unable to extricate his own birth/existence from a terrible family tragedy.

The lack of direct information about Summerhall in the main series and even in the World of Ice and Fire is interesting because I think it suggests an unwillingness to discuss it both outside the series (on the part of GRRM himself) and within it (on the part of characters and “maesters” who speak about the event in-universe). GRRM’s reticence would eventually need to be paid off with something shocking (not “gotcha” shocking, but, say, “Red Wedding” shocking), and it makes sense that he is not yet ready for this “reveal.” In-story though, I think it makes more sense for people to refuse to talk about it or allude to it in only broad strokes if something occurred at Summerhall that is too unsavory to dredge up.

If you collect what we do know about Summerhall, you can see some hazy shapes taking form:

• Whatever occurred at Summerhall is referred to as “treason,” suggesting someone acting against Aegon V. This may or may not refer to someone deliberately letting the fire get out of hand.
• Wildfire and pyromancers were present, along with seven dragon eggs (which are currently unaccounted for). “Sorcery” was present.
• Aegon V, Duncan the Small and Duncan the Tall are three known casualties, but it’s unclear who else in the family may have died there.
• A snippet of text from the World of Ice suggests that Duncan the Tall performed a last act of “valor” that saved some unspecified life or lives (“… died, but for the valor of the Lord Comman …”). We know that Rhaella and the newborn Rhaegar survived, and it might be their lives whom Duncan saved before expiring. It’s not entirely clear when Rhaegar was born, precisely — if he was delivered literally during this fire or if Duncan got the in-labor Rhaella to safety and then she actually gave birth.
• We know that Aegon V was very keen on getting knowledge on how to hatch dragons, not for his own empowerment, but in order to better protect the peasant class of Westeros from the interests of the nobility. This adds a higher element of tragedy to what happened, given that Aegon V is a sympathetic character.

Here’s where it gets a bit freaky. The Targaryen motto all along is what it turns out — based on Dany’s later experience — is necessary to hatch dragon eggs in the absence of, I assume, a living adult dragon to mind them: fire and blood.

Aegon V spared no effort in trying to figure out how to hatch these eggs. What if he did actually learn what would do it? We have one element of the hatching obviously present: the fire. So what was — or was going to be — the blood? Looking at how Dany hatched her eggs, I think it was done in two steps: Rhaego’s death in the tent actually quickened the dead eggs and made them living again (it’s after this that Dany feels movement within the eggs where there hadn’t been before, and when Rhaego looks long dead, as the eggs had been), and Mirri’s sacrifice in the funeral pyre caused them to hatch.

The biggest question about Summerhall is why it failed and Dany succeeded when by all accounts they seem to have had the same “ingredients.” I wonder if the solution doesn’t tie back to Dunk’s act of valor and the allusion to “treason” at Summerhall (which, again, would imply an act against Aegon V himself on the part of someone). If Aegon V knew more about how to hatch dragons than we might guess, he might have concluded that Rhaegar’s life should be the “blood” in the “fire and blood” equation. This would explain why Aegon V very deliberately timed his dragon-hatching escapade to Rhaegar’s impending birth — Rhaegar, if Aegon V had had his way, would have been the Rhaego of Summerhall, more or less. And if he thought he needed more blood for the extra hatching step — a Mirri — then there were other people there who would do who were also from, as far as Aegon V thought, the right stock. (It’s not clear if Aegon V’s eggs were as obviously deteriorated as Dany’s were such that a quickening step and the blood/burning step were both necessary; Aegon may have thought that Rhaegar’s death and a fire would do it.)

And that is the Red Wedding-esque shock of Summerhall: Aegon V, easily one of the more loved Targaryen kings of the past, little Egg, in the end was just as batshit raging insane as anyone else in the family and was ready to do something as terrible as anyone else in the family had ever done. That would definitely be a blow that would justify the almost preternatural silence around Summerhall, both on GRRM’s part — preserve the mystery until he’s ready to lay it out — and in the story itself — not good to paint the common ancestor of both Rhaegar and Robert as a would-be child killer.

Going back to Dunk and his valor — if Dunk realized, maybe too late, what Aegon V really had planned, this might account for the “treason” mentioned: Dunk defied Aegon V, his king, by preventing the blood magic ritual from being fully carried out. Assuming Rhaella and Rhaegar (in utero still or not) were the lives Dunk saved in his valor — and I think this is what’s implied although obviously it isn’t explicitly stated — then Dunk would have been saving them as much from Aegon himself as from the fire. (It isn’t clear if the fire getting away from Aegon’s control was a side effect of the ritual itself or whether it was sabotaged, by Dunk or someone else, in self-defense.)

This would add a Shakespearean-tragic element to Dunk and Egg’s relationship, with Egg going from Dunk’s squire to his king to someone who finally went out of his gourd and had to be stopped. It also explains why Summerhall failed: Without that highly specific type of blood sacrifice — maybe it must be an unborn or newborn child? — the dragons could not have hatched. Dunk getting pregnant/in-labor Rhaella out is what ultimately would have doomed the dragon-hatching plan, in addition to the fire getting out of control (again, deliberate undermining or not), which is what killed everyone.

While I don’t think Rhaegar’s melancholy around Summerhall requires him to know that he was almost sacrificed, it would add more complexity to it, if Rhaegar knew the family could have had literal dragons — maybe! — if he’d been killed, and had to settle for yet another metaphorical one — himself — instead.

EDIT: It also adds a bit of a cruel twist to Dany choosing to name Rhaego after Rhaegar, and that may be a clue in and of itself: Rhaego actually suffered what Rhaegar almost suffered. If you want to extrapolate further, it’s interesting that Rhaegal (not Viserion, at least not yet) is Dany’s most problematic dragon and the one tied to the ill-omened color green. Rhaegal is also named for Rhaegar, as Rhaego was (and Rhaegar of course died at the Green Fork). Ill omens all around.

I hasten to add that the idea of Aegon V being an as-yet-unrevealed villain of Summerhall isn’t new. It’s been kicked around before and other people have noticed the commonality of pregnant Dany and pregnant Rhaella in both dragon-hatching scenarios, and that the one that succeeded is the one where the baby was actually successfully sacrificed, if inadvertently. I had been resistant to the idea for a long time, but going back over everything, it does a hell of a good job explaining the moving parts, why the ritual failed, why Aegon did all this when and how he did it, how treason factored in and what valor Dunk may have committed before he died.

I’ve always thought that the “treason” against Aegon V and Duncan’s act of valor were related. I think it would be such a tragic end to Egg’s character if through his obsession with liberating the peasant class, he descended into some form of Machiavellian “the end justifies the means” madness. You’ve explained it far better than I ever could. Bravo.

I get the impression though that Summerhall was seen (broadly) as the action of someone who wasn’t quite right in the head, even setting aside the blood sacrifice. Aemon also tells Sam that all of his brothers — “every one” — were killed due to their dreams of dragons. That would imply that Aemon, even if he doesn’t know the full extent of it, sees Summerhall as something not-quite-sane and catastrophic on Aegon’s part (i.e. he knows there’s more to it than just a random tragic fire). Aemon’s lumping Aegon together with Aerion Brightflame — who was actually nuts — and Daeron, who seems to have been driven to instability/alcoholism because of his prophetic dreams. Seems telling.

 

https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Daenerys-dragons-hatch-but-others-didn-t-What-was-special-about-Mirri-Maz-Duur-s-ritual

[Lord Varys]

Nope, he did not.

[kissdbyfire]

As strange as it may sound, I'm w/ LV on this one. 

[TPTWP Timett]

I don't think he intended blood magic I read it like the timing with Rhaegar's birth was tie a newborn Target to a newly hatched dragon. Rhaegar grows up with his dragon type of thing

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 hours ago, goldenlion said:

https://www.quora.com/Was-Aegon-V-trying-to-perform-blood-magic-to-birth-dragons-but-instead-it-led-to-the-birth-of-Rhaegar-Targaryen/answer/Kelsey-L-Hayes?share=ef7a3d43&srid=5inM

https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Daenerys-dragons-hatch-but-others-didn-t-What-was-special-about-Mirri-Maz-Duur-s-ritual

He probably tried to use the fire magic of the pyromancers to hatch old eggs. Wildfire is a bitch, and people died 

[Rufus Snow]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nope, he did not.

That's an uncharacteristically concise reply for you. What's your reasoning?

The only hit I get from the search linking 'Summerhall' and 'treason' is this:

 

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A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

 

To me that reads as though Aegon's reign was affected by the 'treason and turmoil'. In no way does it say to me that Summerhall was treason, and this effectively removes this first plank of the theory:

13 hours ago, goldenlion said:

Whatever occurred at Summerhall is referred to as “treason,” suggesting someone acting against Aegon V. This may or may not refer to someone deliberately letting the fire get out of hand.

Having said all that, it is a good question to ask why Dany succeeded where Summerhall ended in total failure.

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

That's an uncharacteristically concise reply for you. What's your reasoning?

I don't have to write large, monstrous essays every time.

However, here the fact simply is that we have no reason to assume bloody blood sacrifices are necessary to try to hatch dragon eggs. Historically, they just hatched. Aegon V collected magical lore on the topic, yes, but that's not evidence he wanted to sacrifice someone.

This ridiculous tendency to take Mel's mad ramblings and things Dany deduced from her experiences with Mirri Maz Duur and project them into the past to be relevant in any attempt at hatching dragon eggs is just that - ridiculous (while we have no evidence for this).

Now, Aegon V may have been betrayed at Summerhall, there may have been people who sabotaged his efforts, etc. - or the whole thing was just an accident. Wildfire is a very volatile substance, after all.

The 'treason and turmoil' part definitely refers to Aegon V's reign, not to Summerhall.

[Rufus Snow]

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

However, here the fact simply is that we have no reason to assume bloody blood sacrifices are necessary to try to hatch dragon eggs. Historically, they just hatched. Aegon V collected magical lore on the topic, yes, but that's not evidence he wanted to sacrifice someone.

I think we're pretty much on the same page for this one.

I'm hoping we'll get the 'inside track' on Summerhall when (if) the final Dunk and Egg comes out....

[Megorova]

There's at least two incorrect elements in OP.

First - it wasn't necessary 7 dragon eggs. It was written there - blood of the seven gathered in one.

In my opinion, it means, that there was seven dragonseeds: Aegon V, Duncan the Small, probably Aerys and Rhaella, and three others, my guess, is that it was Rhaelle Targaryen-Baratheon, Aegon's second daughter, and Aegon's sisters - Rhae and Daella. Blood of those seven dragonseeds was gathered in one - Rhaegar.

Second - after incident at western market, Dany took green and bronze egg into her bed. That's when she felt movement inside the egg. Dragon embrio inside that egg (Rhaegel) and the baby in Dany's womb, reacted to each other's presense, Dany thought something like - blood to blood, brother to brother. And Drogon's egg became hot, not long after Dany's wedding. So those dragon eggs became alive months prior Mirri's, Drogo's, and Rhaego's death.

Also, based on what happened in first three books out of Dunk and Egg novels, I don't think, that Dunk will ever go against anything, that Aegon will want to do. So if Aegon wanted to hatch dragon eggs thru usage of blood magic, then Dunk wholy supported him in everything.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

Aegon V tried to use blood magic to hatch the dragons and DUNK stopped him

I put in bold and highlighted the part of your assertions that I can agree on.  Aegon V was a weak king and he was looking for a way to bring back the dragons.  I do not doubt that.   Duncan did not spoil that plan though.  He knew for years about the prophecy of the dragons coming back.  Aegon had been sending his messengers to get the knowledge that he needed to hatch dragon eggs.  Duncan would have known this.  And he would have stopped Aegon before Summerhall if it involved the sacrifice of a baby.   Aegon always confided in Duncan.  Very few secrets between the two.  

What was the missing ingredient?  It wasn't blood.  Many died at Summerhall.  Of fire, there was plenty.  Aegon had his mages and sorcerers.  The difference, in my opinion, is the lack of Daenerys.  Aegon V is just your ordinary Targaryen.  Daenerys is special.  Aegon V is not Daenerys Stormborn Targaryen.   Timing is important.   She is Azor Ahai and Aegon V is not.  

One more thing.  If the Maesters had been poisoning the dragons, then it is safe to conclude that their eggs are also damaged.  Aegon's eggs were damaged and they were not going to hatch.  Daenerys received ancient eggs from Asshai.  They have not been poisoned.  They are petrified but she performed an act of necromancy and brought them back.  Daenerys and the dragons were reborn on that faithful day, beneath the Red Comet, in the Dothraki Sea, in the presence of much tears, and smoke.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Shiera Seastar