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Rhaegar's Metaphorical Rubies found...in Winterfell, Greywater Watch and other locations

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[Sorry, no TL;DR summary here...have read everything]
 
Hi everyone, so I mentioned in my previous post about how the Meereenese Knot happened at the Tower of Joy in 2005 because of....R+L=J&M
 
I won't get into details about the knot, but I was hoping to get everyone to think about R+L=J&M via a traditional analysis.
Now I want to prove that R+L=J&M was in GRRM's head at least in 1996...and may be possibly as far as 1991.
But it involves a very very unconventional analysis that probably 99% forum readers never considered.
You need to be very open minded to this....and you will either love it or hate it. So let's begin:
 
In a 2012 interview with GRRM, one of the first things he started for ASOIAF in 1991 were: a few chapters (that would end up in 1996 AGOT)......and a map.
Given a blank piece of paper to draw a map, would GRRM really randomize all his lines, points and names? Or is it another opportunity to hide secret messages in his work?
I believe GRRM drew a treasure map in 1991, and he hid decipherable clues for the locations of Rhaegar's metaphorical rubies via the Trident.
At first, the map may be hard to decipher, but after you fully comprehend the hidden tricks of the treasure map, you will noticed it every time you see the map of Westeros.
 
This theory consist of three parts...1st part is a coincidence for R+L=J&M, 2nd part is a coincidence another popular ASOIAF theory, 3rd part means all this is not a damn coincidence anymore.

Rhaegar Targaryen was killed at the Trident. Robert Baratheon smashed him so badly, his rubies scattered into the river. The ruby is the metaphor for Targaryen blood and Targaryen legacy. These metaphorical rubies are the last Targaryens, known or secret, at the beginning of AGOT 1996.

 

 
Now before we begin, the secret trick is "pointing" to decipher all this, with the exception of one city. Don't ask me why, it just is.
 
1st Part:
- Follow the Trident river North, Green Fork:
 
- The North twin fork "separates" at "The Twins"    
 
- One part ends up at Greywater Watch = Meera    
 
- The other part points to Winterfell = Jon    
 
- "The Twins" "separate"...very clever GRRM
 
Coincidence? Let's move on.
 
 
2nd Part:
- Follow the Trident river West, Red Fork:    
 
- The West twin fork separates at Riverrun (I'll explain the word-play later)    
 
- One part points to Casterly Rock = Jaime    
 
- The other part also points to Casterly Rock = Cersei    
 
- This means these secret Targaryen twins never separated
 
Coincidence again? Let's move on.
 
3rd Part:
The only way to confirm that all this in intentional is linking the known Targaryens, Dany and Viserys, to all of this. But the remaining Blue Fork of the Trident doesn't point anywhere North-West.....or does it?
 
- Follow the Blue Fork - Trident South-East with the same pointing idea:
 
- There is no twin fork here because Dany & Viserys are not twins, and were never separated    
 
- The river ends at a bay...BUT its where the RIVER points, not the bay    
 
- And the river points to Dragonstone = Dany's birthplace & the Targaryen ancestral home    
 
GRRM wouldn't make it that easy for us to find. He wants you to picture a "Trident" in your head to mislead you from the pointing of Dragonstone.
 
These are the locations of Rhaegar's metaphorical rubies if you follow the Trident on the map...one ruby in Winterfell, one in Greywater Watch, two in Casterly Rock, and one/two in Dragonstone.
I believe all these were good in 1996, but its been 22 years now. I highly doubt he kept the secret Targaryens the same as of 2018.
 
Hopefully this will add to the R+L=J&M twins theory, until Meereenese Knot of 2005.
 
Criticism: What about "Riverrun"? It doesn't have a clever name like "The Twins"    
Answer: Riverrun has a clever word play, but it is much harder to decipher than these rubies. You need to at least accept the fact the GRRM fools around with his maps. See if you can decipher it on your own, I'll reveal it later. It's a good one. 
 
Criticism: Some of the "pointings" are a little off    
Answer: GRRM did hand draw the maps, probably as early as 1991, but he gave them to James Sinclair to be redrawn with CAD to be published in 1996.    
 
How would you imagine the conversation would go if GRRM is trying to keep a secret?    
GRRM: "Thank you James Sinclair for re-drawing my maps for publishing, but can you correct the spelling of Riverrrun...and move this river 2 degrees to the right?"    
Sinclair: "I understand the Riverrrun typo...but why move this river a little bit?"    
GRRM: "You know what, everything is good enough, leave it the way it is...nevermind I said that"
 
Fun fact: If you whip out the TMOIAF, the map book...you can connect Daenerys' Blue Fork of the Trident to Dragonstone to......Pentos (Dany's & Viserys' start location in AGOT).....AND......Meereen...all on the same line (plus or minus a few degrees). This is probably the bigger coincidence.
 
I want to thank imotu from Reddit for pointing this a few years ago. He found Part 1, but I was able to find Part 2 & 3 to confirm this treasure map.

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Before this treasure map, I always thought the city of "The Twins" was interesting.

The river splits into 2 parts, leaving 3 pieces of land.

Why not build 3 bridges to connect these 3 pieces of land to make more toll money.

In NYC, we have the Tri-Borough Bridge, connecting Manhattan. Queens and the Bronx...where our rivers split up.

So I always thought the bridge set-up at "The Twins" was odd.

And after discovering the treasure map, it was done and named intentionally by GRRM.

Edited by The Map Guy

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1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:
Criticism: What about "Riverrun"? It doesn't have a clever name like "The Twins"    
Answer: Riverrun has a clever word play, but it is much harder to decipher than these rubies. You need to at least accept the fact the GRRM fools around with his maps. See if you can decipher it on your own, I'll reveal it later. It's a good one. 

You can't think of Riverrun without Finnegans Wake... and if anyone thinks they can decipher that and all its worldplay...

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1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:

Which not build 3 bridges to connect these 3 pieces of land to make more toll money.

Probably because the 'middle' bit to the north is no-one's destination, making it three times the building cost for absolutely no more revenue?

 

I don't really buy the thesis though. If the Green Fork is supposed to be pointing at Winterfell, and Greywater Watch, why should the backwards Blue Fork point to Dragonstone? By that logic, wouldn't the ToJ need to be one of the 'targets'? Add in that Greywater Watch moves around the marshes, can it do so and still have a whole river pointing at it?

And the Tumblestone splits again, so it only half points vaguely towards Casterly Rock. I'd also dispute the use of the word 'separates' - rivers flow one way - they JOIN, they do not separate just because you are travelling upstream.

We are also lacking any in-world credibility. The Twins were built centuries earlier, Casterly Rock and the Red Fork have been there since the Dawn Age and beyond. I don't believe GRRM would stoop to something which cannot make sense within the story, ie to people living in the world depicted. No-one's ever going to stand on the docks at Saltpans and say 'You know this river runs this way because Daenerys Targaryen was born on Dragonstone?'

(All that said, I do think it's possible he started with a twin in mind for Jon before being forcerd to rewrite for whatever reason....)

 

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1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

You can't think of Riverrun without Finnegans Wake... and if anyone thinks they can decipher that and all its worldplay...

The Riverrun part is a good one, its very poetic. I'll give you three hints.

You absolutely need to subscribe to the fact that GRRM hide things in his map, along with wordplay. If you don't believe it, you will never get it. And yes, you have accept the Rhaegar Ruby Map as is.

1. Its in the UK version of the maps, which makes it a bit more poetic.

2. GRRM usually hides things in 3s

3. The wordplay of Riverrun has to do with GRRM's middle initials

Warning: Some people will find it clever, most people will say its just another BS coincidence. But I am riding my two post on the ton of "coincidences". 

Edited by The Map Guy
Sorry, i forgot one big detail

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10 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Probably because the 'middle' bit to the north is no-one's destination, making it three times the building cost for absolutely no more revenue?

 

I don't really buy the thesis though. If the Green Fork is supposed to be pointing at Winterfell, and Greywater Watch, why should the backwards Blue Fork point to Dragonstone? By that logic, wouldn't the ToJ need to be one of the 'targets'? Add in that Greywater Watch moves around the marshes, can it do so and still have a whole river pointing at it?

And the Tumblestone splits again, so it only half points vaguely towards Casterly Rock. I'd also dispute the use of the word 'separates' - rivers flow one way - they JOIN, they do not separate just because you are travelling upstream.

We are also lacking any in-world credibility. The Twins were built centuries earlier, Casterly Rock and the Red Fork have been there since the Dawn Age and beyond. I don't believe GRRM would stoop to something which cannot make sense within the story, ie to people living in the world depicted. No-one's ever going to stand on the docks at Saltpans and say 'You know this river runs this way because Daenerys Targaryen was born on Dragonstone?'

(All that said, I do think it's possible he started with a twin in mind for Jon before being forcerd to rewrite for whatever reason....)

 

I don't think GRRM thought through all of this between 1991 to 1996. I find it more plausible that he hid little decoys here and there to throw map lookers off from the bigger picture. But the decoys are very little. The big picture is still what I drew up.

Also, the Tower of Joy is not shown on the original 1996 map.

Edited by The Map Guy

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Well, you've caught the interest of the forum, and that is a good thing.

I also like the idea of "mining" the map for clues about characters. That does seem like something GRRM would do.

Your Trident theory, unfortunately, doesn't persuade me.

For one thing, rivers flow toward the sea. This might seem like a technicality, but "Rhaegar's rubies," as you interpret them, would not have drifted upriver when they were jarred loose from his breastplate. And the twins would not have split and then "flowed" upstream, if the river metaphor is correct. We also have the Elder Brother at the Quiet Isle telling us that rubies have been washing up on their island, along with lots of other things that fall into the river.

If you take a "downstream" approach to the same river and the same map, it could be telling us that Tywin (Casterly Rock) and Joanna (Lannisport) are the parents of the Lannister twins, Cersei and Jaime.

Maybe Howland Reed and Lyanna are the parents of twins as well, explaining the convergence of the two branches (you see them as Greywater Watch and Winterfell) of the green fork toward the Frey seat at The Twins. This is not strongly supported by other clues, however, which leads me to think it would be a false interpretation.

Your interpretation of the Blue Fork as a symbol of Daenerys also doesn't work for me. Dany is identified with shades of plum and lavender, like her Targaryen eyes. Blue is often identified with Brienne, who was the blue knight in Renly's Rainbow Guard and who is associated with sapphires. Couldn't the Blue Fork of the Trident be "pointing" to the island of Tarth as easily as it points to the island of Dragonstone?

The more likely interpretation of the entire Trident River, in my opinion, is that the Red Fork represents Lannisters, the Green Fork represents Starks and/or Tullys the Blue Fork represents Brienne, who is sworn to Lady Stark but feels a bond with Jaime Lannister. She is stuck in the middle. You will find that Brienne has a lot of scenes associated with bridges.

Another point that might be relevant to the idea of the map as clues about characters: the crannogmen live in a swamp. Their castle moves around. They don't need bridges - they seem to be able to get around in wet conditions without any landmarks or roads. So maybe Jojen and Meera can navigate the various watersheds and rivers without the same restrictions that apply to other characters.

There is something interesting linking Rhaegar's Rubies to the river, but I don't think you've cracked the code. Interesting ideas, though.

Edit: I want to add, Meera's weapon of choice is a forked froghunting spear, or trident. If she were strongly associated with only one fork of the river, I don't think she would have a three-pointed weapon.

Edited by Seams

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19 minutes ago, Seams said:

Well, you've caught the interest of the forum, and that is a good thing.

I also like the idea of "mining" the map for clues about characters. That does seem like something GRRM would do.

Your Trident theory, unfortunately, doesn't persuade me.

For one thing, rivers flow toward the sea. This might seem like a technicality, but "Rhaegar's rubies," as you interpret them, would not have drifted upriver when they were jarred loose from his breastplate. And the twins would not have split and then "flowed" upstream, if the river metaphor is correct. We also have the Elder Brother at the Quiet Isle telling us that rubies have been washing up on their island, along with lots of other things that fall into the river.

If you take a "downstream" approach to the same river and the same map, it could be telling us that Tywin (Casterly Rock) and Joanna (Lannisport) are the parents of the Lannister twins, Cersei and Jaime.

Maybe Howland Reed and Lyanna are the parents of twins as well, explaining the convergence of the two branches (you see them as Greywater Watch and Winterfell) of the green fork toward the Frey seat at The Twins. This is not strongly supported by other clues, however, which leads me to think it would be a false interpretation.

Your interpretation of the Blue Fork as a symbol of Daenerys also doesn't work for me. Dany is identified with shades of plum and lavender, like her Targaryen eyes. Blue is often identified with Brienne, who was the blue knight in Renly's Rainbow Guard and who is associated with sapphires. Couldn't the Blue Fork of the Trident be "pointing" to the island of Tarth as easily as it points to the island of Dragonstone?

The more likely interpretation of the entire Trident River, in my opinion, is that the Red Fork represents Lannisters, the Green Fork represents Starks and/or Tullys the Blue Fork represents Brienne, who is sworn to Lady Stark but feels a bond with Jaime Lannister. She is stuck in the middle. You will find that Brienne has a lot of scenes associated with bridges.

Another point that might be relevant to the idea of the map as clues about characters: the crannogmen live in a swamp. Their castle moves around. They don't need bridges - they seem to be able to get around in wet conditions without any landmarks or roads. So maybe Jojen and Meera can navigate the various watersheds and rivers without the same restrictions that apply to other characters.

There is something interesting linking Rhaegar's Rubies to the river, but I don't think you've cracked the code. Interesting ideas, though.

Edit: I want to add, Meera's weapon of choice is a forked froghunting spear, or trident. If she were strongly associated with only one fork of the river, I don't think she would have a three-pointed weapon.

Thank you!

But I am basing this in the year 1996, quite possibly as far as 1991. This would be the bare-bone of ASOIAF, I don't think GRRM would of thought of all these details you mentioned. He probably fooled around drawing this map and said "You know what, lets go publish this book with this map just I doodled"

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9 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Thank you!

But I am basing this in the year 1996, quite possibly as far as 1991. This would be the bare-bone of ASOIAF, I don't think GRRM would of have thought of all these details you mentioned. He probably fooled around drawing this map and said "You know what, lets go publish this book with this map just I doodled"

Well that explains everything, doesn't it. So the author wasn't thinking about details until after 1996?

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Just now, Seams said:

Well that explains everything, doesn't it. So the author wasn't thinking about details until after 1996?

Yes...that makes logical sense.

GRRM "I just doodle a clever map!....but maybe I should get back to writing my books since it is more important, I'll deal with the map details stuff later after my books become more popular" -1996

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The more likely interpretation of the entire Trident River, in my opinion, is that the Red Fork represents Lannisters, the Green Fork represents Starks and/or Tullys the Blue Fork represents Brienne, who is sworn to Lady Stark but feels a bond with Jaime Lannister. She is stuck in the middle. You will find that Brienne has a lot of scenes associated with bridges.

Red, Green, Blue are one of the more basic colors. If he swapped Blue with Purple/Violet, it would look too fishy on a map.

I don't think GRRM use Red, Green, and Blue symbolically in the Trident in 1996. They are just random colors.

He did use these colors more recently in TWOIAF.

Here are the names of some former Riverland lords: Lord Elmo, Lord Kermit, Lord Glover.

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5 hours ago, The Map Guy said:
Given a blank piece of paper to draw a map, would GRRM really randomize all his lines, points and names? Or is it another opportunity to hide secret messages in his work?
I believe GRRM drew a treasure map in 1991, and he hid decipherable clues for the locations of Rhaegar's metaphorical rubies via the Trident.
At first, the map may be hard to decipher, but after you fully comprehend the hidden tricks of the treasure map, you will noticed it every time you see the map of Westeros.

I believe you're 100 per cent correct here. But also GRRM is sometimes so extremely cunning that his clues allow multiple solutions (here's my take on it) - there might be some conclusive hints in all the books that spin off the main series, but I can't bring myself to read them all. :(

3 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

The Riverrun part is a good one, its very poetic. I'll give you three hints.

You absolutely need to subscribe to the fact that GRRM hide things in his map, along with wordplay. If you don't believe it, you will never get it. And yes, you have accept the Rhaegar Ruby Map as is.

1. Its in the UK version of the maps, which makes it a bit more poetic.

2. GRRM usually hides things in 3s

3. The wordplay of Riverrun has to do with GRRM's middle initials

Warning: Some people will find it clever, most people will say its just another BS coincidence. But I am riding my two post on the ton of "coincidences". 

I'm intrigued! Don't forget the solution...

2 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I don't think GRRM use Red, Green, and Blue symbolically in the Trident in 1996. They are just random colors.

He did use these colors more recently in TWOIAF.

Here are the names of some former Riverland lords: Lord Elmo, Lord Kermit, Lord Glover.

If he was thinking of puzzles and symbols in his map, he was probably thinking of puzzles and symbols he could use in other ways - and he loves describing colours; has done consistently, right from the very first book. In the earliest chapters, we get the blue eyes of death, the emerald eyes of Lannisters, the red eyes of Ghost. It's all there. The solution to your treasure map is going to very elaborate (except the one thing we do know, which is that rubies somehow end up on the Quiet Isle - I'll be very disappointed if they don't.)

(Love the muppets link!)

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

I believe you're 100 per cent correct here. But also GRRM is sometimes so extremely cunning that his clues allow multiple solutions (here's my take on it) - there might be some conclusive hints in all the books that spin off the main series, but I can't bring myself to read them all. :(

I'm intrigued! Don't forget the solution...

If he was thinking of puzzles and symbols in his map, he was probably thinking of puzzles and symbols he could use in other ways - and he loves describing colours; has done consistently, right from the very first book. In the earliest chapters, we get the blue eyes of death, the emerald eyes of Lannisters, the red eyes of Ghost. It's all there. The solution to your treasure map is going to very elaborate (except the one thing we do know, which is that rubies somehow end up on the Quiet Isle - I'll be very disappointed if they don't.)

(Love the muppets link!)

Thanks! And I like how you think back in 2017 with the river colors.

But the Westeros map was set in stone in 1996. He can't change any names, he can't add new rivers or terrain. The only thing he can do is add more towns, which he did over the years.

If he decided a color of the river was meant for someone, it would have been done in 1996.

In regards to what I found on the 1996 map, I can literally draw and connect the dots on the map. It was simple and clever, which I think was GRRM's original intention.

I think back to the HBO TV show The Wire. The Baltimore detectives were trying to decipher the drug dealers' payphone secret code. It took them a while and used every math angle the can think of to solve it, but couldn't. One day, they thought to themselves, these drug dealers don't know how to do math that quickly! It had to be something easier. And it was...it was so simple and clever. [It was opposite physical numbers of a phone dial: 1=9, 2=8, 3=7, 4=6, 5=5, 0=0]

Anyways my point is...sometime when you are given a puzzle, the solution is probably more simple than complicated.

 

But in regards to Riverrun, I admit, this one is complicated lol.....it is rewarding tho.

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Maybe Rhaegar's seven rubies are this seven dragonseeds: 1. Shiera Seastar (Cancer, Moon), 2. Bloodraven (Leo, Sun), 3. Varys (Scorpio, Mars), 4. fAegon (Capricorn, Saturn), 5. Jon (Libra, Venus), 6. Dany (Gemini, Mercury), 7. Rhaego (Capricorn or Aquarius, Saturn). Could be, that the hint was hidden in Joffrey's wedding chalice - those seven stones, with which it was decorated, are birthstones of those signs of Zodiac: Ruby - Cancer, Leo, Capricorn, Scorpio. Emerald - Gemini, Cancer. Onyx - Leo. Silver - Cancer, Capricorn. Blue jade - Libra, Cancer. Opal - Libra, Scorpio, Aquarius. Pearl - Gemini, Cancer.

 

 

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21 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Red, Green, Blue are one of the more basic colors. If he swapped Blue with Purple/Violet, it would look too fishy on a map.

I don't think GRRM use Red, Green, and Blue symbolically in the Trident in 1996. They are just random colors.

He did use these colors more recently in TWOIAF.

Here are the names of some former Riverland lords: Lord Elmo, Lord Kermit, Lord Glover.

Elmo, Kermit and Grover

Shett, Tollett, Coldwater

 Lharys, Kurleket, and Mohar

...not all fire and blood exactly

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On 8/14/2018 at 11:05 AM, Rufus Snow said:

You can't think of Riverrun without Finnegans Wake... and if anyone thinks they can decipher that and all its worldplay...

Its up

 

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20 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I believe you're 100 per cent correct here. But also GRRM is sometimes so extremely cunning that his clues allow multiple solutions (here's my take on it) - there might be some conclusive hints in all the books that spin off the main series, but I can't bring myself to read them all. :(

I'm intrigued! Don't forget the solution...

If he was thinking of puzzles and symbols in his map, he was probably thinking of puzzles and symbols he could use in other ways - and he loves describing colours; has done consistently, right from the very first book. In the earliest chapters, we get the blue eyes of death, the emerald eyes of Lannisters, the red eyes of Ghost. It's all there. The solution to your treasure map is going to very elaborate (except the one thing we do know, which is that rubies somehow end up on the Quiet Isle - I'll be very disappointed if they don't.)

(Love the muppets link!)

Riverrun wordplay in the map is up!

 

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