Craster: Sacrificing his sons to the WW

[Lady Barbrey]

8 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

This theory sounds great and the resembles with the fire side of the story. A house that can also be inbreeding are the flints, they are presented, because they are the only ones that expand their territory to other places. Maybe it is easier this way to intermarry like the lannisters from the rockj and lannisport. (dont know if i am right about that) 

But with this story you also think that the long night happened after the wall was allready there? 

I Think she was an ice scoceres because she her description is that from a Mel look a like, but than ice. The corpse bride could not have been an other, because than intercourse would have been a very bad thing i guess and not have worked. 

Last question do you think is possible that lyanna has a pure bloodline, maybe that the wife of Rickard was a Stark in dis skies. Because than u have Dany who is pure fire, NK pure ice and Jon pure ice and fire? something like this

It's important to remember that this theory is about the regenesis and rebirth of the Others, generations after the Long Night when they were defeated, not about how they were originally created either before or contemporaneous with the Long Night. But this regenesis story, if viable, also tells us something of what might have happened in the original creation.

Yes, you're absolutely right that I equate her with Mirri but also with Melisandre!  I wrote a whole post about Melisandre and the Night's Queen that disappeared in the shuffle, but if you search for Durran Durrandon's post, One God, Two Gods, Red Gods, Blue Gods, he has the same basic premise, though goes into more of Rhlorr, Great Other, which I don't believe in.  It's a great post.

Yep, Rickard married his cousin, so Lyanna likely had a good measure of that latent ability that she has passed along to Jon.  Otherwise, how is he the chosen one of a song of ice and fire?  Jon is the culmination of Martin's very own alchemical wedding, where it's not just the human red king and white queen who marry, but a marriage of the elements they represent, fire magic and ice magic.  Jon should therefore be capable of both dragon riding and necromancy, along with the Warging we know him to possess.  Maybe even something altogether different and even more magical than dragon riding , warging and necromancy, who knows?  But while the Warging is a more natural internal quality, it might take a bit of ice and fire magic for him to manifest the other abilities.   

[Seaserpent]

10 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

It's important to remember that this theory is about the regenesis and rebirth of the Others, generations after the Long Night when they were defeated, not about how they were originally created either before or contemporaneous with the Long Night. But this regenesis story, if viable, also tells us something of what might have happened in the original creation.

Yes, you're absolutely right that I equate her with Mirri but also with Melisandre!  I wrote a whole post about Melisandre and the Night's Queen that disappeared in the shuffle, but if you search for Durran Durrandon's post, One God, Two Gods, Red Gods, Blue Gods, he has the same basic premise, though goes into more of Rhlorr, Great Other, which I don't believe in.  It's a great post.

Yep, Rickard married his cousin, so Lyanna likely had a good measure of that latent ability that she has passed along to Jon.  Otherwise, how is he the chosen one of a song of ice and fire?  Jon is the culmination of Martin's very own alchemical wedding, where it's not just the human red king and white queen who marry, but a marriage of the elements they represent, fire magic and ice magic.  Jon should therefore be capable of both dragon riding and necromancy, along with the Warging we know him to possess.  Maybe even something altogether different and even more magical than dragon riding , warging and necromancy, who knows?  But while the Warging is a more natural internal quality, it might take a bit of ice and fire magic for him to manifest the other abilities.   

Yes i agree with you, this seems more clear now. I will search for the post to read it! Yeah that was the awnser on my question that its about the rebirth of the others.

[Lady Barbrey]

5 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

Yes i agree with you, this seems more clear now. I will search for the post to read it! Yeah that was the awnser on my question that its about the rebirth of the others.

Great!  You might want to Google that post if it doesn't come up right away on the forum search.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, Seaserpent said:

Your first point is very interesting, because Mance and beal look alot like eachother, the only big diffrence is the kidnapping of the daughter (if you dont count a fake arya) and make her pregnant. So there are some options of Valyrianblood in the north and maybe some old blood of kings. But what are mance and craster from each other? 

Well Mance never steals fake Arya, Reek does. Which may be part of the riddle to my mystery. Im not sure yet, but Mance isn't out of the woods yet with Lyanna in my book yet. Though judging by fake Arya, maybe this wasn't the first Stark he was supposed to steal, but some one keeps beating him to it. I definitely suspect Mance of being the Black brother at Harrenhal

[Seaserpent]

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well Mance never steals fake Arya, Reek does. Which may be part of the riddle to my mystery. Im not sure yet, but Mance isn't out of the woods yet with Lyanna in my book yet. Though judging by fake Arya, maybe this wasn't the first Stark he was supposed to steal, but some one keeps beating him to it. I definitely suspect Mance of being the Black brother at Harrenhal

Yes but he is controlling the spearwives that helps reek and Farya escape, so the brain behind it. About which black brother you are talking in which book? And you mean he kidnap Lyanna after harrenhall or that he is Rhaegar in dis skies, because that should be Bael the bard allover.  

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, Seaserpent said:

Yes but he is controlling the spearwives that helps reek and Farya escape, so the brain behind it. About which black brother you are talking in which book? And you mean he kidnap Lyanna after harrenhall or that he is Rhaegar in dis skies, because that should be Bael the bard allover.  

When Meera tells of Harrenhal, she mentions a Black Brother in attendance. 
And im not sure the details of how anything went down at Harrenhal, just following clues. And i agree, it has Bael the Bard all over, and Mance fits the legend.

[Rufus Snow]

On 10/4/2018 at 9:17 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

I'd say, based solely on what we know to date, that he carries a latent gene for necromancy (it's the only power we've seen the Others use up to now) that's tied to the Y chromosome maybe, because the Others don't want the girls.  Necromancy is either an icy type of skinchanging the dead or it's its own thing, and I rather suspect the latter after a convo on another thread.  The incest is a thing, it means something and that has to be breeding in this ability to the sons.

Beg to differ on this bit, but only slightly. If you think about it, there's only the one Y chromosome in the gene pool - it doesn't matter if he fathers a child on one of 'his' women or anyone from outside, a son can only have that one possible Y-chromosome. In fact this is the one and only chromosome that this sort of incest does NOT impact in the male line.

If the incest is important, then it's more likely to be something on the X chromosome. Perhaps we should be asking not 'who is Craster', but 'who is Craster's first wife?' We have been blinded by the patriarchy, folks Who is the MATRIARCH of this predominantly female community that sacrifices all but one breeding male?

Also as an aside, someone mentioned the wildling exogamy - marrying outside the village or clan or whatever - this is not actually any more effective against 'incest' than southron traditions, as it can still allow cousin-cousin matches to occur, if a child goes back to marry into a parent's home village (4th degree consanguinity)

On 10/4/2018 at 9:17 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

Kind of fun to equate disgusting crude Craster to the mad but mighty Targaryens. 

It is

And now I'm going to throw some numerology into the mix:

• NINETEEN wives of Craster
• NINETEEN Targaryen dragon skulls in the Red Keep
• NINETEEN forts on the Wall
• NINETEEN dragonglass arrows left when the survivors from the Fist returned to Craster's keep***

So, all this nineteen-ness suggests it is the wives, and not Craster who are important. Might that not be part of the reason why they had not offed him years ago?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon III

"Yes, my lord," Jon confessed. "I would sooner not tell you which. She was frightened and wanted help."

"The wide world is full of people wanting help, Jon. Would that some could find the courage to help themselves. Craster sprawls in his loft even now, stinking of wine and lost to sense. On his board below lies a sharp new axe. Were it me, I'd name it "Answered Prayer' and make an end."

Yes. Jon thought of Gilly. She and her sisters. They were nineteen, and Craster was one, but . . .

 

And of course, whilst Craster's little colony was hosting the survivors and being put to an end, Jon was off with his nineteen-year-old, kissed-by-fire spearwife:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

Ygritte pushed herself onto an elbow. "I am nineteen, and a spearwife, and kissed by fire. How could I be maiden?"

 

*** "So now all they had was Mormont's dagger and the one Sam had given Grenn, plus nineteen arrows and a tall hardwood spear with a black dragonglass head. "

 

So, the question now arises on Sam's mission: who is his important charge? Is it Aemon Battleborn, or is it in fact Gilly?

[alostsister]

"Craster's blood is black and he bears a heavy curse.' - Ygritte, Chapter 26 SoS

Perhaps Craster is trying to lift the curse. Ygritte knew things, like Tyrion.  Craster shares some parallels with the NK.

 

 

 

[Lady Barbrey]

5 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Beg to differ on this bit, but only slightly. If you think about it, there's only the one Y chromosome in the gene pool - it doesn't matter if he fathers a child on one of 'his' women or anyone from outside, a son can only have that one possible Y-chromosome. In fact this is the one and only chromosome that this sort of incest does NOT impact in the male line.

If the incest is important, then it's more likely to be something on the X chromosome. Perhaps we should be asking not 'who is Craster', but 'who is Craster's first wife?' We have been blinded by the patriarchy, folks Who is the MATRIARCH of this predominantly female community that sacrifices all but one breeding male?

Also as an aside, someone mentioned the wildling exogamy - marrying outside the village or clan or whatever - this is not actually any more effective against 'incest' than southron traditions, as it can still allow cousin-cousin matches to occur, if a child goes back to marry into a parent's home village (4th degree consanguinity)

It is

And now I'm going to throw some numerology into the mix:

• NINETEEN wives of Craster
• NINETEEN Targaryen dragon skulls in the Red Keep
• NINETEEN forts on the Wall
• NINETEEN dragonglass arrows left when the survivors from the Fist returned to Craster's keep***

So, all this nineteen-ness suggests it is the wives, and not Craster who are important. Might that not be part of the reason why they had not offed him years ago?

 

And of course, whilst Craster's little colony was hosting the survivors and being put to an end, Jon was off with his nineteen-year-old, kissed-by-fire spearwife:

 

*** "So now all they had was Mormont's dagger and the one Sam had given Grenn, plus nineteen arrows and a tall hardwood spear with a black dragonglass head. "

 

So, the question now arises on Sam's mission: who is his important charge? Is it Aemon Battleborn, or is it in fact Gilly?

Oooh I like it Rufus Snow.  Thanks for pointing out the numerology, which I sometimes tend to dismiss, but just yesterday I noticed something about the number 13 to do with Dany and the Night King  regenesis parallels - see post above. After the dragons die out, Dany is the 13th Targ true monarch (if counting Rhaegar and Viserys), and the Night King was the 13th Lord Commander!  Crazy!

I like the idea Gilly is the Matriarch reborn too!  But I guess I'm caught up with only the boys being turned to Others, and that it's a male - the Lord Commander- that seems to have been needed to regenerate the line. Maybe not the Y chromosome then, but isn't there a disease - is it hemophilia? - that carries through the moms but only manifests in the boys? I think that's how I see this gene for necromancy.  Will have to get out my biology text because if I remember it was Queen Victoria and daughters that carried the gene, but it only manifested in her grandson or great grandson, the son of Nicholas and Alexandra of Russia.

Edit to add: just looked it up. It's not as simple as it used to be (science has made strides) but basically if Craster had the full genes necessary for necromancy,  and his wife was a carrier, then all his sons would have the full genes necessary, and all his daughters would be carriers. Breeding with the daughters gives the same result then. This suggests that the Others did not elect to change Craster to an Other, even though he could be a necromancer, but instead elected to use him as a breeding machine. Of course, George might not be using this at all, but the Queen Victoria - hemophilia thing is such a famous example, it's very possible he based it on this with his own variations.

While female hemophiliacs are exceedingly rare, there are a few of them with a mild form whose genes went through something called lyonization, so Gilly displaying something supernatural if changed by Ice magic is not out of the question.

Fun stuff!

It's interesting though that it seems transforming into Other by Ice magic seems to be necessary to bring out the necromancy trait for each child, while dragon riders just breed - incestuously, true - but they don't need that influx of fire magic for each child.  It was just needed the first time at creation, and the second time for regenesis with Dany.  Unless they do need it but in internal form, or maybe just the presence of dragons? There does seem to be a symbiotic relationship between Valyrians and dragons that does not seem the same with the Others, but we know so little about the Others. I have to think about this I guess.

But as to Craster himself, he only needed a carrier mother to get the trait, (father didn't need it), but only had a slim chance of actually getting it because it wouldn't express in all the carriers children.  For ALL his sons to have it, however, he needs to have the full trait and the mothers have to be carriers.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

3 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

And now I'm going to throw some numerology into the mix:

• NINETEEN wives of Craster
• NINETEEN Targaryen dragon skulls in the Red Keep
• NINETEEN forts on the Wall
• NINETEEN dragonglass arrows left when the survivors from the Fist returned to Craster's keep***

So, all this nineteen-ness suggests it is the wives, and not Craster who are important. Might that not be part of the reason why they had not offed him years ago?

I think this would really hit home if it turned out that Craster's nineteen wives had given him nineteen sons which were turned into WW with one arrow each left to fell them and the spear is for "Azor Ahai" to use against the NK. Whether or not the NW can convince the realm to mine for more dragonglass will largely depend on Sam being able to convince the Archmaesters in order to get the word out. These arrows and spear may be their only supply. With Stannis' men and the Wildlings to fortify the other sixteen fortifications on the Wall, it may be that there will be a simultaneous assault on all nineteen with a WW commanding each wight force. Perhaps the largest assault would happen at the Black Gate with the NK leading.

We know from the Fire & Blood excerpt that dragons will not (willingly) cross the plane of the Wall, but whether that is because of the magical barrier the Wall represents or because of the presence of the WW beyond that point is unknown. Since the WW made no incursions (or even their presence known) during the Targaryen reign, we don't have any clue as to what Valyrian steel and dragon fire will do to these foes or even if dragons will engage them.

[Rufus Snow]

Thanks both - just a quickfire one: there's more nineteens I found, but the only other 'meaningful' pair seemed to be the 19 days Stannis was stuck 'three days from Winterfell' and the 19 days Tyrion was becalmed in the Stinky Steward. Can't help but wonder if it was the SAME 19 days, hmmm?

[Seaserpent]

8 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Beg to differ on this bit, but only slightly. If you think about it, there's only the one Y chromosome in the gene pool - it doesn't matter if he fathers a child on one of 'his' women or anyone from outside, a son can only have that one possible Y-chromosome. In fact this is the one and only chromosome that this sort of incest does NOT impact in the male line.

If the incest is important, then it's more likely to be something on the X chromosome. Perhaps we should be asking not 'who is Craster', but 'who is Craster's first wife?' We have been blinded by the patriarchy, folks Who is the MATRIARCH of this predominantly female community that sacrifices all but one breeding male?

 

Good Catch, but if the X chromosoom was more important than everybody could making the woman pregnant. But following your theory, if coldhands did kill the mutineers than he is strongly against the WW, because than they could not get pregnant anymore and sacrifice the boys or make any more girls with that gen. 

[Rufus Snow]

5 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Edit to add: just looked it up. It's not as simple as it used to be (science has made strides) but basically if Craster had the full genes necessary for necromancy,  and his wife was a carrier, then all his sons would have the full genes necessary, and all his daughters would be carriers. Breeding with the daughters gives the same result then. This suggests that the Others did not elect to change Craster to an Other, even though he could be a necromancer, but instead elected to use him as a breeding machine. Of course, George might not be using this at all, but the Queen Victoria - hemophilia thing is such a famous example, it's very possible he based it on this with his own variations.

While female hemophiliacs are exceedingly rare, there are a few of them with a mild form whose genes went through something called lyonization, so Gilly displaying something supernatural if changed by Ice magic is not out of the question.

Fun stuff!

It's interesting though that it seems transforming into Other by Ice magic seems to be necessary to bring out the necromancy trait for each child, while dragon riders just breed - incestuously, true - but they don't need that influx of fire magic for each child.  It was just needed the first time at creation, and the second time for regenesis with Dany.  Unless they do need it but in internal form, or maybe just the presence of dragons? There does seem to be a symbiotic relationship between Valyrians and dragons that does not seem the same with the Others, but we know so little about the Others. I have to think about this I guess.

But as to Craster himself, he only needed a carrier mother to get the trait, (father didn't need it), but only had a slim chance of actually getting it because it wouldn't express in all the carriers children.  For ALL his sons to have it, however, he needs to have the full trait and the mothers have to be carriers.

I can't pretend to have a full theory on what's going on with Craster, even whether his bloodline is important or not. At this stage I wouldn't even rule out the possibility that he only hands over his boys because he's a perv and wants the girls for his own purposes...

Anyway, if we take it as a clue that the XY makeup of the babies is important, we might expect that all the women have two identical Xs (or at least the same allele of the pertinent genes), and that Craster's own X is the same. So that way, any combination of Craster and any of the women will result in the same two possible XY chromosomes. All the female babies will get two copies of the same X, and all the boys will get the right X and the same Y as Craster. (And of cause all this ignores the possibility of transposons and other possible mutations, but hey, magic )

The other sense in which female ancestors are important though is in the mitochondria - mtDNA is passed from mother to child regardless of gender, so there'sa chance of this being the relevant part for the WW, too. Whether the George has gone this far into things, I don't know, but it would affect the way cells work which may be important for Ice Magic to 'take'

I've wondered about the WW not 'breeding' in the way other organisms do. From what little we've seen, as the belief of Craster's wives that the WWs are 'the brothers' shows, they need to be made or converted from humans. We don't see that with any other species, the closest being the reanimation of the dead that they themselves perform. This inability to 'breed' almost looks like a deliberately designed self-limitation on the spread of WWs - and it's also part of the reason I'm not totally convinced that the original Night's King's 'wife' was actually an Other.

 

43 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

if coldhands did kill the mutineers than he is strongly against the WW, because than they could not get pregnant anymore

Aha, I hadn't thought through that far - it would give a reason for killing the mutineers, although I'm not sure we can rule out the possibility of a few pregnancies following the chaos at the keep... assuming the women are still alive.

[Lady Barbrey]

29 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

I can't pretend to have a full theory on what's going on with Craster, even whether his bloodline is important or not. At this stage I wouldn't even rule out the possibility that he only hands over his boys because he's a perv and wants the girls for his own purposes...

Anyway, if we take it as a clue that the XY makeup of the babies is important, we might expect that all the women have two identical Xs (or at least the same allele of the pertinent genes), and that Craster's own X is the same. So that way, any combination of Craster and any of the women will result in the same two possible XY chromosomes. All the female babies will get two copies of the same X, and all the boys will get the right X and the same Y as Craster. (And of cause all this ignores the possibility of transposons and other possible mutations, but hey, magic )

The other sense in which female ancestors are important though is in the mitochondria - mtDNA is passed from mother to child regardless of gender, so there'sa chance of this being the relevant part for the WW, too. Whether the George has gone this far into things, I don't know, but it would affect the way cells work which may be important for Ice Magic to 'take'

I've wondered about the WW not 'breeding' in the way other organisms do. From what little we've seen, as the belief of Craster's wives that the WWs are 'the brothers' shows, they need to be made or converted from humans. We don't see that with any other species, the closest being the reanimation of the dead that they themselves perform. This inability to 'breed' almost looks like a deliberately designed self-limitation on the spread of WWs - and it's also part of the reason I'm not totally convinced that the original Night's King's 'wife' was actually an Other.

No I don't think she was an Other either but I do think she was an ice sorceress comparable to fire sorceresses like Mirri  and Melisandre,  and a carrier of the necromancy gene as well if she gave birth to the babies.

I mean, it's quite possible that there are many Others who are not necromancers, maybe of both sexes, just like there were many Targs/Valyrians who were not dragon-riders, and they're products of natural breeding practices. They could all be doing beautiful work with ice magic. But in war, it's the necromancers they need and that's where bloodlines, incest and ice and blood magic come in, just as they did with Dany.  But a transformation is needed, and I wonder if it has to do with the boys being killed, and raising themselves as necromancing Others?  A test and creation at the same time?

Gosh, I'm really intrigued by the possibilities of Jon's resurrection.

Well never mind, lots to think about without snarling my brain up in that knot!

[Varysblackfyre321]

10 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

 

If the incest is important, then it's more likely to be something on the X chromosome. Perhaps we should be asking not 'who is Craster', but 'who is Craster's first wife?' We have been blinded by the patriarchy, folks Who is the MATRIARCH of this predominantly female community that sacrifices all but one breeding male?

 

Wouldn’t reason dictate choosing a more docile male to sire children as to best protect the females? I mean Craster beat his daughter-wives, and threatened to hit one in while giving birth, if he himself wasn’t integral to the equation why not pick someone with a more even temperament? But if there is a matriarch I have a feeling, I would not be surprised if it was his own mother. 

[Rufus Snow]

11 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But if there is a matriarch I have a feeling, I would not be surprised if it was his own mother. 

Yup, and in this family which clearly has 'issues' she might also be his first wife

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 10/9/2018 at 10:23 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

On 10/9/2018 at 6:46 AM, Rufus Snow said:

 

Oooh I like it Rufus Snow.  Thanks for pointing out the numerology, which I sometimes tend to dismiss, but just yesterday I noticed something about the number 13 to do with Dany and the Night King  regenesis parallels - see post above. After the dragons die out, Dany is the 13th Targ true monarch (if counting Rhaegar and Viserys), and the Night King was the 13th Lord Commander!  Crazy!

 

The number 13 was considered an ill omen in early Christianity due to Judas being the thirteenth guest. Hell @AlaskanSandman made a thread to where he listed how the number 13 has been connected to betrayals in ASOIAF.

[Lady Barbrey]

52 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The number 13 was considered an ill omen in early Christianity due to Judas being the thirteenth guest. Hell @AlaskanSandman made a thread to where he listed how the number 13 has been connected to betrayals in ASOIAF.

And your point is? Because very possibly the parallel of the two 13's I mention are reflective of what's been called the Blood Betrayal.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Lady Barbrey said:

And your point is? Because very possibly the parallel of the two 13's I mention are reflective of what's been called the Blood Betrayal.

They all seemed tied to a blood betrayal. Take Daemon writing 13 in the tree before facing Aemon? Gael the Winter Child is if im right, a blood betrayal against Jaehaerys, Jon dies on his 13th pov chapter. Bran tell of the Night's King and 13 before being sacrificed through the Black Gate by Bloodraven. There is more you can draw from it too

[AlaskanSandman]

On 10/9/2018 at 6:46 AM, Rufus Snow said:

Beg to differ on this bit, but only slightly. If you think about it, there's only the one Y chromosome in the gene pool - it doesn't matter if he fathers a child on one of 'his' women or anyone from outside, a son can only have that one possible Y-chromosome. In fact this is the one and only chromosome that this sort of incest does NOT impact in the male line.

If the incest is important, then it's more likely to be something on the X chromosome. Perhaps we should be asking not 'who is Craster', but 'who is Craster's first wife?' We have been blinded by the patriarchy, folks Who is the MATRIARCH of this predominantly female community that sacrifices all but one breeding male?

Also as an aside, someone mentioned the wildling exogamy - marrying outside the village or clan or whatever - this is not actually any more effective against 'incest' than southron traditions, as it can still allow cousin-cousin matches to occur, if a child goes back to marry into a parent's home village (4th degree consanguinity)

It is

And now I'm going to throw some numerology into the mix:

• NINETEEN wives of Craster
• NINETEEN Targaryen dragon skulls in the Red Keep
• NINETEEN forts on the Wall
• NINETEEN dragonglass arrows left when the survivors from the Fist returned to Craster's keep***

So, all this nineteen-ness suggests it is the wives, and not Craster who are important. Might that not be part of the reason why they had not offed him years ago?

 

And of course, whilst Craster's little colony was hosting the survivors and being put to an end, Jon was off with his nineteen-year-old, kissed-by-fire spearwife:

 

*** "So now all they had was Mormont's dagger and the one Sam had given Grenn, plus nineteen arrows and a tall hardwood spear with a black dragonglass head. "

 

So, the question now arises on Sam's mission: who is his important charge? Is it Aemon Battleborn, or is it in fact Gilly?

You have some very interesting ideas here. Though if it's a matriarchy, where is the head? It seems to me she would be the one answering for things, not Craster. Though i will throw out, that i've heard ideas that Craster's first was his mother, his second was his sister from his mother. Continuing and ensuring the incest. Though i think obviously speculation but interesting ideas by all. In a bee colony, the queen has many concubines. Craster is old too, how long were they hoping to continue this? What was going to happen when Craster died? Did they have a spare? Im definitely interested to hear more about this as you come to it.