Did Old Gared Know About the Black Gate?

[Three-Fingered Pete]

This has been on my mind for awhile now and rather than rewrite it out I'm just going to pirate something I wrote in another thread:

 

On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 1:01 AM, Trefayne said:

... How did Gared get south of the Wall? A basic assumption would be that he came back in through the gate at CB where he left. It could be that he climbed back, but he is old, has a missing finger and had no climbing equipment that we know of. He could have entered at Eastwatch or the Shadow Tower, but that means he meandered all the way back to the lands around WF after going hundreds of miles east or west to get back south just to get to where he was captured. Pretty improbable. So, let's go with the basic assumption that he came in where he left... at CB.

Gared shows up alone with the horses, makes no report, and just hightails it out of there? No one stopped him and asked, "Hey, where are Will and the snotty Royce kid?" They do blow a horn when rangers are returning to alert the gate operators, so the entire castle would know that he was back. It's not like he could sneak in quietly during a guard change or something and run off. Mormont even seems confused that the man would desert since he had been in the Watch for a very long time, like he never even heard about Gared's return from the very patrol he sent him on. Gared was a complete basket case by the time Ned relieved him of his noggin, so those people can be excused for thinking he had lost his mind or nerve or loyalty or whatever, but his brothers who knew him didn't notice anything wrong with him?

 

So, did Gared somehow know about the Black Gate and use it to get south of the Wall without being caught? It might also explain how he managed to avoid the WW being that the entrance is strongly warded and might keep them away from close proximity to the Black Gate. Coldhands was described by Sam and Gilly as being unable to pass and although we don't get an immediate passage of what greeted Bran and Co. on the other side of the Black Gate, I always got the impression that Coldhands wasn't just simply leaning against the Wall whittling and waiting for them to come out. I'm betting  that he was situated well beyond the tree line.

Thoughts?

[Lluewhyn]

I would suspect this is one of those Early Installment Weirdness things

[Rufus Snow]

Hate to say it, but I think this might be a plot hole that the George overlooked... but in the spirit of your thread-starter, my favoured scenario is something along the lines of:

Gared reaches the tunnel at CB, half out of his mind with fear, shivering with cold and exhaustion, at some ungodly hour in the middle of the night. The lookouts let him through, see what poor shape he's in and just take him to a nice warm sleeping cell with some mulled wine or broth or whatever. When they look in on him in the morning (or even an hour or so later, when Aemon has been roused) they go back to his nice warm cell.... and LO! He's gone. But why they didn't chase him down, or why they couldn't find him if they did... no idea. Even more mysterious if no one told Mormont he'd come back as a gibbering wreck.

You might be able to explain away even more if he came back to Eastwatch or the Shadow Tower and disappeared later 'en route to CB'.

Or it could have been Coldhands leading him to the Black Gate, though I don't grok his motivation for that....

[Three-Fingered Pete]

45 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Or it could have been Coldhands leading him to the Black Gate, though I don't grok his motivation for that....

 

I'd considered that too and had a similar lack of motivation for him to do that other than old loyalty and whatnot.

Of course, I believe Coldhands is one of 'Ol Splotchy's compatriots from the days of old which means that they have their own, so far undisclosed, game plan. Gared could have played into that. They may have been trying to get the word out, but it didn't go over very well.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

59 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Hate to say it, but I think this might be a plot hole that the George overlooked... but in the spirit of your thread-starter, my favoured scenario is something along the lines of:

Gared reaches the tunnel at CB, half out of his mind with fear, shivering with cold and exhaustion, at some ungodly hour in the middle of the night. The lookouts let him through, see what poor shape he's in and just take him to a nice warm sleeping cell with some mulled wine or broth or whatever. When they look in on him in the morning (or even an hour or so later, when Aemon has been roused) they go back to his nice warm cell.... and LO! He's gone. But why they didn't chase him down, or why they couldn't find him if they did... no idea. Even more mysterious if no one told Mormont he'd come back as a gibbering wreck.

You might be able to explain away even more if he came back to Eastwatch or the Shadow Tower and disappeared later 'en route to CB'.

Or it could have been Coldhands leading him to the Black Gate, though I don't grok his motivation for that....

Plot hole - I agree. I like this rendition.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

I just thought though - aren't wildlings supposed to raid south quite often. How do they all get south? Climb or boat right?

[Rufus Snow]

5 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

I just thought though - aren't wildlings supposed to raid south quite often. How do they all get south? Climb or boat right?

Yup. But Gared is not equipped for climbing and his mental state is probably not conducive, either. He could easily steal a wildling boat, I guess - he'd be so fired up by fear of the Others I could see him taking on a boatload of raiders to boost their ride ... but then he'd be on the coast and the question then is why would he come so far inland later to be within half a day's ride of Winterfell?

 

Of course, there is one other possibility; perhaps he was riding on the back of a pregnant direwolf bitch?

[Three-Fingered Pete]

It is a huge plot hole, which is why I'm trying to find a boulder to plug it up!

The problem with Gared returning through normal channels is it always has to rely on him being in his right mind when he returned, lying to a garrison commanding officer (perhaps claiming that Wildings killed the other two party members) and then either losing it and deciding to run in a panic or running in a panic and losing it on the road to back to CB and then to Winterfell.

Either that or complete incompetence on the part of several members of the NW.

If I could just piece a reason together as to why Bloodraven and Coldhands would help him, at least it would fit the story.

 

22 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Of course, there is one other possibility; perhaps he was riding on the back of a pregnant direwolf bitch?

 

No, the direwolf rowed them both down and around in a Wildling boat.

[wia]

Lord Commander Qorgyle used to send patrols east towards towards the Shadow Tower every second day. And Lord Commander Mormont was using a tactic that Benjen came up with - sending a large force to one of the abandoned castles for 2-4 weeks sometimes. So it wouldn't be surprising that some of the rangers would know of the gate's existence and have figured out how it works. Gared spent forty years as a ranger, so if anyone has indeed figured it out, it's not unlikely to be him.

[John Suburbs]

He's been on the wall for decades, so he could very well have known about the Black Gate and how to get through it. In fact, this is really the only explanation that makes any sense because, as the OP noted, he doesn't have the equipment to climb the wall and there would be no reason for him to be anywhere near Winterfell if he had gone around.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

Plot hole, well more of a plot dent. 

3 minutes ago, wia said:

Lord Commander Qorgyle used to send patrols east towards towards the Shadow Tower every second day. And Lord Commander Mormont was using a tactic that Benjen came up with - sending a large force to one of the abandoned castles for 2-4 weeks sometimes. So it wouldn't be surprising that some of the rangers would know of the gate's existence and have figured out how it works. Gared spent forty years as a ranger, so if anyone has indeed figured it out, it's not unlikely to be him.

Good point. If anyone did figure it out it would have been Gared, as you say.

1 minute ago, John Suburbs said:

this is really the only explanation that makes any sense because, as the OP noted, he doesn't have the equipment to climb the wall and there would be no reason for him to be anywhere near Winterfell if he had gone around.

Hear, hear.

[Clegane'sPup]

4 hours ago, Trefayne said:

So, did Gared somehow know about the Black Gate and use it to get south of the Wall without being caught?

Martin had to start somewhere. Martin gave a prologue that talked about the NW on a hunt for wildlings and then mysterious beings made their appearance.

Gared turns up south-side of the Wall after being north of the Wall in the Haunted Forest. The Lord of WF executes the supposedly deranged NW deserter.

Lord Eddard does his duty and beheads the man. Strangely, Eddard and the north men do not send Gared back to the Wall. Gared is beheaded. That is the plight of a deserter. Death.

The premise is that the Others, direwolves, giants, CotF, etc --- do not exist in 297/8.

Miraculously a dead direwolf is discovered and her pups are found beside the dead carcass. Direwolf, the Stark sigil. Shock and awe.

Gared somehow got from the Haunted Forest to south of the Wall.     Momma direwolf somehow shows up south of the Wall.    Osha and companions somehow get south of the Wall.

Other than climbing the huge ice wall there are two other ways round it.  Sneaking past ST or sneaking past EW.  Then boom bing bang. Coldhands takes Sam to a "gate" that Coldhands cannot pass located at a deserted NW fort named Nightfort. Again miraculously this is the place Bran & companions take refuge at while on their journey to find the Bran's & Jojen's 3EC.

The Nightfort may be addressed in the upcoming F & B vol. 1  because Alysanne and her hubby Ja$%^%*^%  were in Bran's remembrances of history taught by Luwin as shown below.

A Storm of Swords Bran IV   "Twice as old as Castle Black," Bran said, remembering. "It was the first castle on the Wall, and the largest." But it had also been the first abandoned, all the way back in the time of the Old King. Even then it had been three-quarters empty and too costly to maintain. Good Queen Alysanne had suggested that the Watch replace it with a smaller, newer castle at a spot only seven miles east, where the Wall curved along the shore of a beautiful green lake. Deep Lake had been paid for by the queen's jewels and built by the men the Old King had sent north, and the black brothers had abandoned the Nightfort to the rats.    That was two centuries past, though. Now Deep Lake stood as empty as the castle it had replaced, and the Nightfort . . .

You are correct there is no description of Bran & companions coming out the other side of the gate. If I am reading it correctly a big old weirwood opened its mouth and wallah passage through to the other side.

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV   A turn or two later Sam stopped suddenly. He was a quarter of the way around the well from Bran and Hodor and six feet farther down, yet Bran could barely see him. He could see the door, though. The Black Gate, Sam had called it, but it wasn't black at all.     It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it.    A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it. The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that.

Did Gared, the momma dierwolf or Osha & companions use the gate at Nightfort to get south of the Wall?   No I dunna think so.

The NW forgot their history. The north men forgot their history. Besides, the Nightfort was shut down during Alysanne's time (year 36 -99) and iffin' I'm remembering correctly the ASOIAF story started in 297 and in the filth book time has progressed to year 300.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 hour ago, Trefayne said:

If I could just piece a reason together as to why Bloodraven and Coldhands would help him, at least it would fit the story.

 

I think I might have something. A ton of foreshadowing is going on in AGoT Bran I.

If Gared isn't sent south of the Wall then Bran won't be there to witness his first tastes of justice, duty, honor and sacrifice, all things he will need to face and come to terms with in his near future. But more importantly, if the men aren't out there in the first place, they would never have found the dead direwolf, killed by the stag. And they wouldn't have found the direwolf pups, especially one that was a red eyed albino with it's eyes wide open before it's siblings.

Even the part about how Ghost had crawled (Bran) or been driven (Jon) away from the others is eerily prophetic:

 

Quote

AGoT - Bran I

"He must have crawled away from the others," Jon said.

"Or been driven away," their father said, looking at the sixth pup. His fur was white, where the rest of the litter was grey. His eyes were as red as the blood of the ragged man who had died that morning. Bran thought it curious that this pup alone would have opened his eyes while the others were still blind.

 

'Ol Splotchy could have known about Bran and Jon's latent abilities and sent the pups and Garen south to get things into motion while placing Ghost as his eyes and ears.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

19 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The premise is that the Others, direwolves, giants, CotF, etc --- do not exist in 297/8.

 

Not entirely. In that same Bran I chapter Ned asks Bran why he thought Ned had to do the beheading and Bran says:

Quote

... “Do you under stand why I did it?”

“He was a wildling,” Bran said. “They carry off women and sell them to the Others.”

 

and Ned tells him that Nan has been telling him stories again. So the idea of the Others is there, if not the hard belief of their threat.

[wia]

14 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

But more importantly, if the men aren't out there in the first place, they would never have found the dead direwolf, killed by the stag. And they wouldn't have found the direwolf pups, especially one that was a red eyed albino with it's eyes wide open before it's siblings.

Well if we assume that the direwolf was sent to them, then she could've just been sent closer to Winterfell to be killed by a stag and witnessed. So Gared's execution wasn't really necessary for them to meet the direwolf pups.

[Clegane'sPup]

9 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

 

Not entirely. In that same Bran I chapter Ned asks Bran why he thought Ned had to do the beheading and Bran says:

 

and Ned tells him that Nan has been telling him stories again. So the idea of the Others is there, if not the hard belief of their threat.

 

9 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

... “Do you under stand why I did it?”

“He was a wildling,” Bran said. “They carry off women and sell them to the Others.”

Which way is it going to be? Did Eddard behead a so call deserter of the NW who supposedly was deranged?

Or did Eddard behead a wildling who supposedly carried off women to sell to the Others?

Context.

As I said, my thought is the Others, direwolves, giants, CotF do not exist in 297/8. Do I need to get wordy and splain eberythawg?

38 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The premise is that the Others, direwolves, giants, CotF, etc --- do not exist in 297/8.

 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

5 minutes ago, wia said:

Well if we assume that the direwolf was sent to them, then she could've just been sent closer to Winterfell to be killed by a stag and witnessed. So Gared's execution wasn't really necessary for them to meet the direwolf pups.

 

Well, who am I to complain if Bloodraven is efficient? The timing of the meeting was critical though. The pups wouldn't have lived much longer in the cold and without food. Theon and the others, including Ned until convinced otherwise, want to kill them outright for this very reason.

The whole thing is pretty silly anyway. Right after telling Bran that the direwolves could rip a man's arm off, Ned caves and lets them keep them. What a great present for your three year old Rickon and your two girls!

[Three-Fingered Pete]

3 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 

Which way is it going to be? Did Eddard behead a so call deserter of the NW who supposedly was deranged?

Or did Eddard behead a wildling who supposedly carried off women to sell to the Others?

Context.

As I said, my thought is the Others, direwolves, giants, CotF do not exist in 297/8. Do I need to get wordy and splain eberythawg?

 

 

Umm, right after that Ned tells Bran it was because the man was a deserter. Bran didn't even have a clue that Gared was a Black Brother until he was told. For some reason he thought Gared was a Wildling.

The chapter is clear, Bran's perceptions of events aren't. What the important take away is that there are stories of Wildlings selling people to the Others, which is what we find Craster pretty much doing later on.

[Clegane'sPup]

10 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

 

Umm, right after that Ned tells Bran it was because the man was a deserter. Bran didn't even have a clue that Gared was a Black Brother until he was told. For some reason he thought Gared was a Wildling.

The chapter is clear, Bran's perceptions of events aren't. What the important take away is that there are stories of Wildlings selling people to the Others, which is what we find Craster pretty much doing later on.

And what dearie does the ^ above have to do with your question that I responded to?

5 hours ago, Trefayne said:

So, did Gared somehow know about the Black Gate and use it to get south of the Wall without being caught?

The above was what I was flapping my jaws about a few posts ago. Maybe my response was to long.

Did Gared, the momma dierwolf or Osha  & companions use the gate at Nightfort to get south of the Wall, no I dunna think so. The NW forgot their history. The northmen forgot forgot their history. Besides the Nightfort was shut down during Alysanne's time (year 36 -99) so you might get an answer in the upcoming book.

 

 

 

[wia]

16 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

 

Well, who am I to complain if Bloodraven is efficient? The timing of the meeting was critical though. The pups wouldn't have lived much longer in the cold and without food. Theon and the others, including Ned until convinced otherwise, want to kill them outright for this very reason.

The whole thing is pretty silly anyway. Right after telling Bran that the direwolves could rip a man's arm off, Ned caves and lets them keep them. What a great present for your three year old Rickon and your two girls!

I'd say that the timing of the direwolf's death was critical.

But I agree, not all things are efficient even when they can be.