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2 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

That's exactly opposite of what would I want. Blackwoods are every single time shown as honorable and righteous while Brackens are treated almost like cartoony villains. Blackwoods were the one rumored to attack Otho and they cared even less about Dunk during Trial of Seven at Ashford. 

I am entirely with you but I'm trying to adjust myself to what the stories in Westeros seems to be about and what drives the conflicts and their resolution.

Hence I see no place for a Bracken to be in the "right" over the Blackwoods. I'd love for it to be so, but I don't see it. Because as we both have noted the Brackens are sloted in as villains in all recent writing and I think that the relatively sympathic stance that Otho go in the very first Dunk&Egg story is no longer relevant as it was writen before much of the world building was as fixed as it is now.

And yes there's a line with "The Mystery Knight" and much as I'd like it to be of some relevance I feel that its no longer the case.

I would love for myself to be wrong here, but I see no reason to think so.

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Guys, nothing in FaB makes the Brackens villains. That's just nonsense. It doesn't make them heroes, either, but they are not villains.

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2 minutes ago, Blue Falcon said:

I am entirely with you but I'm trying to adjust myself to what the stories in Westeros seems to be about and what drives the conflicts and their resolution.

Hence I see no place for a Bracken to be in the "right" over the Blackwoods. I'd love for it to be so, but I don't see it. Because as we both have noted the Brackens are sloted in as villains in all recent writing and I think that the relatively sympathic stance that Otho go in the very first Dunk&Egg story is no longer relevant as it was writen before much of the world building was as fixed as it is now.

And yes there's a line with "The Mystery Knight" and much as I'd like it to be of some relevance I feel that its no longer the case.

I would love for myself to be wrong here, but I see no reason to think so.

Yeah, I too fear that GRRM will again change things by 180 degree and as always make Blackwoods heroes of the story.

Offtopic: Did you change your allegiance to Arryns?

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Guys, nothing in FaB makes the Brackens villains. That's just nonsense. It doesn't make them heroes, either, but they are not villains.

Well, maybe FaB not, but Blackwoods are written more sympathetic. Brackens got traitor and deserter, while Blackwoods got perfect Royce, Black Aly and Bloody Ben. Not to mention Blackwoods were mentioned as possible brides to Targaryens, while Brackens were not(unless I missed something).

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2 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Well, maybe FaB not, but Blackwoods are written more sympathetic. Brackens got traitor and deserter, while Blackwoods got perfect Royce, Black Aly and Bloody Ben. Not to mention Blackwoods were mentioned as possible brides to Targaryens, while Brackens were not(unless I missed something).

And who cares? The Boltons got Ramsay and Roose and only dead Domeric as a sympathetic character. The Freys are basically all cravens and thugs and freaks aside from some exceptions, whereas the Starks have no cruel or mad villain up to this point. Not to talk about the Lannisters who are mainly arrogant and cruel pricks. 

I mean, seriously, where the hell do you get the notion that there should be some Brackens to your liking? What makes you think George has imagined them as people who were supposed to be equally likable and unlikeable?

What seems to be clear is that George doesn't give the impression the Brackens are in the wrong and the Blackwoods in the right in their silly little feud. Far to the contrary, actually.

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20 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Offtopic: Did you change your allegiance to Arryns?

Very much so. After a period of severe disappointment with the Dance of the Dragons I recalled something I told a friend about Tolkien when that friend complained that Tolkien didn't write the politics more Machiavellian or the setting as more grey or grimdark. That was to try and accept the story the author wants to tell you and follw the path that he points you to and see how that path goes instead of complaining that the he isn't writing his story just like another author you like and dig in your heels.

As such I am trying to harmonize myself with the path that GRRM seems to be advertising and instead of going my own path, as I did with the Lannisters whom I still consider to be the best written and more interesting House in the entire material. So I looked for a House that harmonize with GRRM and that I can support and like.

As such I looked over what Houses of significant presence in Westeros I found really interesting. And the final three were the Lannisters, the Baratheons and the Arryns. Now the Lannisters are as a group sloted in as villains, the Baratheons are down as a cautionary tale about infighting and effectively dead as I don't see Stannis taking the throne and that leaves the Arryn to be picked. The Arryn gets a sympathic write-up, they are on the right and morale side of every major conflict from the Conquest to Robert's Rebellion and given that I am mostly interested in Andal culture I found them to fullfill that itch as well.

Hence I decided to go down the path that I feel that GRRM wants me to go, although not entirely as I haven't made the Starks or Targaryens my new favorites, and thus I ditched the clearly unmorale Lannisters for the morale Arryns.

Its a sad goodbuy to the Lannisters, my great love in Westeros, but if I persist then I feel that I will be thinking about how I would like the story to be as opposed to appreciate what the story actually is.

Edited by Blue Falcon

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8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And who cares? The Boltons got Ramsay and Roose and only dead Domeric as a sympathetic character. The Freys are basically all cravens and thugs and freaks aside from some exceptions, whereas the Starks have no cruel or mad villain up to this point. Not to talk about the Lannisters who are mainly arrogant and cruel pricks. 

I mean, seriously, where the hell do you get the notion that there should be some Brackens to your liking? What makes you think George has imagined them as people who were supposed to be equally likable and unlikeable?

What seems to be clear is that George doesn't give the impression the Brackens are in the wrong and the Blackwoods in the right in their silly little feud. Far to the contrary, actually.

And why do you care what I think? 

I mean, seriously, where the hell do you get the notion that I can't criticise GRRM? 

If so many people seem to dislike Brackens, it seem that George has failed to present them as equal rivals. If one side of the conflict is better in every way, then the conflict is not very interesting. I really wonder how Brackens survived to this day when Blackwoods had upper hand most of the time.

Why do you even act so angry about this issue? It's not like anything we write here influence GRRM writing in any way.

 

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1 minute ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

And why do you care what I think? 

I mean, seriously, where the hell do you get the notion that I can't criticise GRRM? 

You can all day long - the point is just that I honestly don't see why this is an issue. I'm not 

1 minute ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

If so many people seem to dislike Brackens, it seem that George has failed to present them as equal rivals. If one side of the conflict is better in every way, then the conflict is not very interesting. I really wonder how Brackens survived to this day when Blackwoods had upper hand most of the time.

The conflict of the Brackens and Blackwoods isn't very interesting, no matter how it is spun. Because there isn't really a reason given for that silly conflict aside from 'we can't stand each other since the Age of Heroes'.

1 minute ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Why do you even act so angry about this issue? It's not like anything we write here influence GRRM writing in any way.

I'm not angry, I'm just confused.

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Since Betha was born in 200-201 AC, and the feud between the Brackens and Blackwoods was reignited in 206 AC, I think it might be interesting if Betha was a product of one of those failed Blackwood/Bracken attempts at peace through marriage.

As for Egg and Betha, even though Egg eventually married her for love, I'd kind of like to see them start off on the wrong foot, rather than some "love at first sight" situation.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The conflict of the Brackens and Blackwoods isn't very interesting, no matter how it is spun. Because there isn't really a reason given for that silly conflict aside from 'we can't stand each other since the Age of Heroes'.

I guess that's one of my problems with this conflict. It just seem so silly and unrealistic.

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not angry, I'm just confused.

Okay, sorry then. It's hard sometimes to guess what was the author's intent on the internet.

Edited by Paxter Redwyne

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47 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I guess that's one of my problems with this conflict. It just seem so silly and unrealistic.

Oh, I find that as pretty realistic insofar as ancient enmities among noble houses are concerned. They are not exactly based on a rational assessment of the situation.

I just don't think it makes sense for us to imagine the author's intent was to treat these two people equally in all regards. I'm not under the impression the Brackens are supposed to be the evil ones in the conflict and the Blackwoods the good guys.

And historically I actually liked how the Brackens sided with the Ironborn against the Storm Kings and the Blackwoods. That wasn't all that bad an idea.

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The Blackwood-Bracken feud is obviously long gone past any rational sense. It's GRRM taking the famous feuds of history -- the Hatfields and the McCoys, the Campbells and the MacDonalds -- and mapped out to a setting in which families exist for hundreds and thousands of years. The origins of the feuds are so lost in time that the stories differ, and no one can say what is true and what isn't. All that's known is that Brackens hate Blackwoods, and Blackwoods Brackens, and every generation ends up cooking up some slight (real or perceived) to perpetuate it and keep it fresh. 

 

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12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I just don't think it makes sense for us to imagine the author's intent was to treat these two people equally in all regards. I'm not under the impression the Brackens are supposed to be the evil ones in the conflict and the Blackwoods the good guys.

In that feud both families are portrayed as equally bad, yes.

But in every other conflict, if the two dinasties are on opposite sides then you can be sure the Blackwoods are on the righteous one, It's sort of a rule of thumb, like "if Barth said it and the Citadel disagrees, then it's true".

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51 minutes ago, Geddus said:

But in every other conflict, if the two dinasties are on opposite sides then you can be sure the Blackwoods are on the righteous one, It's sort of a rule of thumb, like "if Barth said it and the Citadel disagrees, then it's true".

Pretty much so. From trying to see some kind of grey or whatever in this I have now accepted that its a classical good-vs-evil conflict and that the best solution is the destruction of Stone Hedge and the extermination of every critter bearing the Bracken name and that the lands are given to the Blackwoods.

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23 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Blackwoods are every single time shown as honorable and righteous while Brackens are treated almost like cartoony villains

"In the riverlands, raiders out of Raventree, flying Rhaenyra’s banners, crossed into the lands of House Bracken, burning crops, driving off sheep and cattle, sacking villages, and despoiling every sept they came on".

Dance-era Blackwood massacre civilians and plunder the land, Mountain-style; Amos Bracken fights and honorably defeats his Blackwood counterpart in single combat.

Edited by Myrish Lace

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1 hour ago, Myrish Lace said:

"In the riverlands, raiders out of Raventree, flying Rhaenyra’s banners, crossed into the lands of House Bracken, burning crops, driving off sheep and cattle, sacking villages, and despoiling every sept they came on".

Dance-era Blackwood massacre civilians and plunder the land, Mountain-style; Amos Bracken fights and honorably defeats his Blackwood counterpart in single combat.

Shame that afterwards they received many honors, including marriage to Lord Paramount of the North and Brackens later joined fight against Aegon II anyway. 

9 hours ago, Blue Falcon said:

Pretty much so. From trying to see some kind of grey or whatever in this I have now accepted that its a classical good-vs-evil conflict and that the best solution is the destruction of Stone Hedge and the extermination of every critter bearing the Bracken name and that the lands are given to the Blackwoods.

It's really bizarre how Brackens are still alive since Blackwoods got upper hand most of the time. I am sure Aegon IV or Bloodraven wouldn't care if Blackwoods burned Stone Hedge to the ground.

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7 minutes ago, LadyTargaryen1 said:

The only positive thing I can say about Aegon is that he was handsome and cared about his family(full blooded brothers/his son Jaehaerys)

I am not sure if he was actually handsome, but he surely loved his brothers.

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Just now, Paxter Redwyne said:

I am not sure if he was actually handsome, but he surely loved his brothers.

His portrait is pretty handsome, but maybe that’s my preference. Is the huge statues he commissioned for Aemond and Daeron mentioned again? I think i remember reading that they were destroyed.

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11 minutes ago, LadyTargaryen1 said:

His portrait is pretty handsome, but maybe that’s my preference. Is the huge statues he commissioned for Aemond and Daeron mentioned again? I think i remember reading that they were destroyed.

They were started, but Aegon II died before they were finished. Don't remember if they were mentioned later.

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I'm not sure those statues can be seen as a sign of actual love as such. It bespeaks of Aegon II's vanity and the importance he gives to himself and his part of the royal family, but those statues are as much a sign of true affection as Visenya talking about her late brother-husband as her 'love' is a sign that she actually loved the guy.

Honoring the dead always come cheap, considering you can use that for your own propaganda purposes. They cannot fight back, after all.

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